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knasser
post Mar 22 2009, 07:02 PM
Post #1


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In this thread and elsewhere, Hermit has been proclaiming the brokeness of pre-errata magicians. That they are overpowered, that magic has little cost or downside or counter, that for every limit on a magician a mundane has twice as many and that a magician replaces a TEAM of shadowrunners in being able to fill their roles (by implication whilst still being a capable mage themselves) .

I do not think this is the case so I asked Hermit if he was willing to pit a standard 400BP straight out of chargen magician against an identically costed samurai build and see if he could produce something that would match its capabilities, thus fulfilling the same role in a team. Hermit said sure, so here's the thread and here's my build.

I do not expect this challenge to prove that samurai can beat up magicians or vice versa. Shadowrun is a game of eggshells armed with hammers - typically he who betrays the other first gets the loot. What I expect it to prove is that magicians and samurai are neither better nor worse than the other, but different. That they each have their own, and complimentary roles. Hermit expects to prove that magicians are greatly superior to samurai, able to beat the samurai at its own game.

It's been queried why I proposed matching it against a samurai when I could have picked a rigger or a hacker or a TM to more easily demonstrate that magicians can't replicate what a mundane can do. I chose Samurai because when I say "challenge" I mean it. I've given Hermit the best opportunity to prove his point.

So here is my build. Hermit can post his next and then we'll start comparing their capabilities. I already have some idea that Hermit is going for the notorious voudoun magician (often thought to be broken) with the infamous Task spirit, but we'll see what he comes up with.

I want to be clear that given the nature of the challenge, I'm totally fine with us tweaking our builds following suggestions from others or after discussion in the thread.

Game on, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Khadim Nasser.
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Posts in this topic
- knasser   Replace the Samurai Challenge   Mar 22 2009, 07:02 PM
- - knasser   Betty Bang, petite Ork Samurai. Attributes 190BP ...   Mar 22 2009, 07:02 PM
|- - Zurai   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 03:02 PM) B...   Mar 22 2009, 08:24 PM
|- - suppenhuhn   Ok, here'S my go with a possession mage Ga...   Mar 23 2009, 09:45 PM
- - WeaverMount   Question: What is the premise of the engagement? I...   Mar 22 2009, 08:12 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 22 2009, 08:12 P...   Mar 22 2009, 08:19 PM
|- - Degausser   QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 22 2009, 04:12 P...   Mar 22 2009, 08:27 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 22 2009, 08:27 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 08:38 PM
||- - Draco18s   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 04:38 PM) @...   Mar 22 2009, 09:00 PM
||- - Mäx   QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 22 2009, 11:00 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 09:26 PM
||- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 22 2009, 05:26 PM) Thos...   Mar 22 2009, 09:32 PM
||- - knasser   QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 22 2009, 09:32 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 09:41 PM
||- - Draco18s   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 05:41 PM) I...   Mar 22 2009, 10:03 PM
|- - suppenhuhn   QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 22 2009, 09:27 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 10:25 PM
- - pbangarth   By my count, Betty has 172 BP spent on skills, not...   Mar 22 2009, 08:24 PM
- - Draco18s   Didn't even mod your guns so you could load tw...   Mar 22 2009, 08:25 PM
- - knasser   Right - I've removed a rogue specialisation an...   Mar 22 2009, 08:35 PM
- - ElFenrir   Well, I mean, someone else is making this mage...I...   Mar 22 2009, 08:42 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Mar 22 2009, 08:42 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 09:40 PM
|- - Octopiii   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 01:40 PM) Y...   Mar 22 2009, 10:05 PM
|- - WeaverMount   QUOTE (Octopiii @ Mar 22 2009, 05:05 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 10:39 PM
- - Octopiii   If Hermit's "One Man Shadowrunning Team...   Mar 22 2009, 08:47 PM
- - Medicineman   @Knasser I Like Betty. If you don't mind i...   Mar 22 2009, 08:52 PM
- - Chrysalis   If this is a straight-up Spy vs. Spy or in this ca...   Mar 22 2009, 10:36 PM
|- - BlueMax   QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Mar 22 2009, 02:36 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 10:41 PM
|- - WeaverMount   QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Mar 22 2009, 05:36 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 10:43 PM
- - knasser   Good grief, people! Please read any of the exp...   Mar 22 2009, 11:00 PM
- - Octopiii   So here's my shot at a Swiss Army Mage: One ...   Mar 22 2009, 11:18 PM
|- - Mikado   QUOTE (Octopiii @ Mar 22 2009, 07:18 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 11:27 PM
|- - Malicant   QUOTE (Octopiii @ Mar 23 2009, 12:18 AM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 01:20 AM
|- - suppenhuhn   QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 23 2009, 02:20 AM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 01:24 AM
||- - eidolon   QUOTE (suppenhuhn @ Mar 22 2009, 08:24 PM...   Mar 23 2009, 02:03 AM
|- - Octopiii   QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 22 2009, 05:20 PM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 06:26 AM
- - Sir_Psycho   Aren't we proving that pre SR4A magicians were...   Mar 22 2009, 11:41 PM
|- - Mikado   QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 22 2009, 07:41 PM...   Mar 23 2009, 12:04 AM
- - Malicant   Dude, what? If a guy claims a mage can do everyth...   Mar 23 2009, 01:38 AM
- - suppenhuhn   There's nothing written in any book that state...   Mar 23 2009, 01:46 AM
|- - Dunsany   It's true that cyberware and bioware are avail...   Mar 23 2009, 01:55 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Dunsany @ Mar 22 2009, 09:55 PM) T...   Mar 23 2009, 02:05 AM
|- - Octopiii   QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 22 2009, 06:05 PM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 04:47 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Octopiii @ Mar 23 2009, 12:47 AM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 05:00 AM
- - Malicant   QUOTE (suppenhuhn @ Mar 23 2009, 02:46 AM...   Mar 23 2009, 01:56 AM
- - Malicant   Indeed.   Mar 23 2009, 02:06 AM
- - eidolon   Malicant, knock off the baiting and provocation. ...   Mar 23 2009, 02:10 AM
- - Malicant   It does not. But not understanding it after it has...   Mar 23 2009, 02:14 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 22 2009, 10:14 PM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 02:20 AM
- - eidolon   I'm sure we'll all keep that in mind the n...   Mar 23 2009, 02:23 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (eidolon @ Mar 22 2009, 10:23 PM) Y...   Mar 23 2009, 02:36 AM
- - Malicant   Drains... drains! Giev.... drains! QUOTE...   Mar 23 2009, 02:23 AM
- - Angier   Part of the Challenge actually is the predication ...   Mar 23 2009, 11:32 AM
|- - Fuchs   QUOTE (Angier @ Mar 23 2009, 12:32 PM) Pa...   Mar 23 2009, 12:50 PM
- - Malicant   If you want to prove Magic to be uberpowerful, and...   Mar 23 2009, 12:41 PM
|- - Shinobi Killfist   QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 23 2009, 07:41 AM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 05:00 PM
|- - The Mack   QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Mar 24 2009, 02...   Mar 23 2009, 08:20 PM
- - Malicant   Specific beats general. Meaning: you're wrong.   Mar 23 2009, 12:55 PM
- - ornot   Magic is no better than tech for stuff like hackin...   Mar 23 2009, 01:05 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (ornot @ Mar 23 2009, 01:05 PM) @Kn...   Mar 23 2009, 01:33 PM
- - knasser   @Malicant: I'm fine with Octopiii's entry....   Mar 23 2009, 01:11 PM
|- - Malicant   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 02:11 PM) @...   Mar 23 2009, 05:15 PM
- - Fuchs   Way I see it, combat spells are not really that im...   Mar 23 2009, 01:26 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 23 2009, 01:26 PM) Way...   Mar 23 2009, 01:40 PM
|- - Fuchs   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 02:40 PM) I...   Mar 23 2009, 02:46 PM
- - Fuchs   I also think that anything a creative player can c...   Mar 23 2009, 01:36 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 23 2009, 01:36 PM) I a...   Mar 23 2009, 01:43 PM
- - Sir_Psycho   I was wondering where Hermit was. Either he's ...   Mar 23 2009, 01:43 PM
|- - ornot   QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 23 2009, 01:43 PM...   Mar 23 2009, 02:02 PM
- - knasser   Fuchs. That's 20BP over the Attribute limit in...   Mar 23 2009, 02:57 PM
|- - pbangarth   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 08:57 AM) F...   Mar 23 2009, 03:14 PM
||- - Fuchs   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 23 2009, 04:14 PM)...   Mar 23 2009, 03:23 PM
|- - Fuchs   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 03:57 PM) F...   Mar 23 2009, 03:21 PM
||- - knasser   QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 23 2009, 03:21 PM) As ...   Mar 23 2009, 03:54 PM
||- - Fuchs   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 04:54 PM) M...   Mar 23 2009, 04:03 PM
||- - knasser   QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 23 2009, 04:03 PM) Act...   Mar 23 2009, 04:06 PM
||- - pbangarth   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 10:06 AM) A...   Mar 23 2009, 04:17 PM
||- - Fuchs   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 05:06 PM) B...   Mar 23 2009, 04:17 PM
|- - suppenhuhn   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 03:57 PM) F...   Mar 23 2009, 05:15 PM
- - InfinityzeN   Actually Edge and Magic are not limited to the ...   Mar 23 2009, 03:08 PM
- - pbangarth   Silly me, I looked at 'Essence' and read ...   Mar 23 2009, 03:50 PM
- - Jaid   then finish the build your way and he can compare ...   Mar 23 2009, 04:39 PM
- - ElFenrir   Okay, here is my little contribution. '...   Mar 23 2009, 04:40 PM
|- - Mäx   QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Mar 23 2009, 06:40 PM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 05:34 PM
|- - ornot   QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 23 2009, 05:34 PM) It m...   Mar 23 2009, 06:01 PM
|- - Zurai   QUOTE (ornot @ Mar 23 2009, 02:01 PM) Tha...   Mar 23 2009, 06:10 PM
- - ornot   But if they're in a position to have their fet...   Mar 23 2009, 06:15 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (ornot @ Mar 23 2009, 06:15 PM) But...   Mar 23 2009, 06:22 PM
|- - Mäx   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 23 2009, 08:22 PM) T...   Mar 23 2009, 06:27 PM
- - ElFenrir   It's why I chose to do the non-fetish way. He ...   Mar 23 2009, 06:30 PM
- - Fuchs   Another test could be: Can you build a mage that e...   Mar 23 2009, 06:45 PM
- - ElFenrir   I could get it pretty damn close. With my build, t...   Mar 23 2009, 07:06 PM
- - Octopiii   QUOTE He has hacking programs but no computer skil...   Mar 23 2009, 07:57 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (Octopiii @ Mar 23 2009, 07:57 PM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 09:32 PM
- - Apathy   Why is it that none of the mages are using a posse...   Mar 23 2009, 07:59 PM
- - Octopiii   QUOTE (Apathy @ Mar 23 2009, 11:59 AM) Wh...   Mar 23 2009, 08:02 PM
|- - Apathy   QUOTE (Octopiii @ Mar 23 2009, 04:02 PM) ...   Mar 23 2009, 08:58 PM
|- - Mäx   QUOTE (Apathy @ Mar 23 2009, 10:58 PM) My...   Mar 23 2009, 09:05 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (Octopiii)Well, the original point that was ...   Mar 23 2009, 09:12 PM
|- - elseif   QUOTE (Apathy @ Mar 23 2009, 09:58 PM) My...   Mar 23 2009, 09:15 PM
|- - Mäx   QUOTE (elseif @ Mar 23 2009, 11:15 PM) I ...   Mar 23 2009, 09:22 PM
|- - Apathy   QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 23 2009, 05:22 PM) Espe...   Mar 23 2009, 09:34 PM
- - knasser   QUOTE (Apathy @ Mar 23 2009, 07:59 PM) Wh...   Mar 23 2009, 09:06 PM
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