Infected as Player Characters, so has anyone actually allowed it? Options

[wind_in_the_ston...]

The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large.

And this is different from being a shadowrunner how? Ghouls just have a different preference of the loot they take home from shadowruns.

[Tachi]

A recurring theme in transhumanist fiction is the definition of humanity. If we change form and function, do we change the essential definition of what it means to be 'human'? In that respect, playing one of the infected makes a certain kind of sense. victims of circumstance, forced to consume human flesh in order to survive - do they become the monsters everyone expects them to be, or do they try to find a way to rise above their condition? can they come to terms with the disease without losing what it means to be 'human'?

monsters we are lest monsters we become.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Frederich Neitzsche
Beyond Good and Evil
Aphorism 146

If you look into the abyss long enough, you will become the abyss. No ghoul, no matter how good of a person they may have started out, can remain good indefinately. They all eventually succumb to the abyss. You can only eat people for so long before you become a cannibal at heart.

[toturi]

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Frederich Neitzsche
Beyond Good and Evil
Aphorism 146

If you look into the abyss long enough, you will become the abyss. No ghoul, no matter how good of a person they may have started out, can remain good indefinately. They all eventually succumb to the abyss. You can only eat people for so long before you become a cannibal at heart.

Ah, that's why you make sure that the abyss blinks first. When you gaze into the abyss long enough, it will blink. The weak succumb to the abyss, the strong makes the abyss avoid their gaze.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok first off to the OP: I have both run for and played ghoul characters. I have found they had no problems in previous editions froma power level standpoint in fact they were a little on the weak side. In fourth edition as long as your not being too silly with the contact vector I don't forsee a problem. It is in fact the most glaring issue with ghoul characters. Vampires and Nosferatue are more tricky due to their increasing power level and the need of the team to work around their schedule.

Every ghoul I have ever played or ran for have been fairly low key. They've taken steps to hide their status and have generally observed their own ghoulish habits from anything from a character defining tragic addiction to an annoyance. Actually the biggest problem one of my ghouls had with his status was not only was he forced to consume metahuman flesh but he couldn't eat cooked meat period. Which even though his physiology could handle it, he found it disgusting.

Also one important thing to bear in mind, depending on the tribe and geography many cultures especially amongst native americans a high value is not placed on the disposition of remains. A body is just a body at some point. I can't see the sixth world, given that it is supposidly horribly loose on many other morals building it's entrenched moral perogative on canibalism. It can be a victimless affliction.

[Stahlseele]

Technically, Ghouls could be used as Shedim-Prevention . .

[Karoline]

Vampires and Nosferatue are more tricky due to their increasing power level and the need of the team to work around their schedule.

Nosferatu have a schedule problem, Vampires don't really. They just need to put on some sun glasses and wear an armored longcoat and they should be more or less fine. They only have a light allergy. That's like... they sneeze fairly often in sunlight.

[Weaver95]

Nosferatu have a schedule problem, Vampires don't really. They just need to put on some sun glasses and wear an armored longcoat and they should be more or less fine. They only have a light allergy. That's like... they sneeze fairly often in sunlight.

Hey, at least they don't sparkle.

[Stahlseele]

Nah, that's the immoral elves . .

[Mordinvan]

Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.

How uncreative you are. Get a bone marrow sample from a willing donar, and have them clone it and use it to produce blood using the med tech in augmentation. As for the essence requirement, eat clones. They have no sin, and so its not illegal.

[Joe Chummer]

How uncreative you are. Get a bone marrow sample from a willing donar, and have them clone it and use it to produce blood using the med tech in augmentation. As for the essence requirement, eat clones. They have no sin, and so its not illegal.

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

[Weaver95]

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

Maybe it wouldn't be necessary to grow a FULL clone, maybe just the bits with more nutritional value. And it wouldn't have to be a perfect clone either, esp since ghouls like their dinner to be past the due date anyways. I wonder how difficult it would be to mass produce cloned organs, esp if they didn't exactly have to be completely functional....?

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

well...I don't think the tammies are interested in legitimate bio-tech startups. they fill a particular niche in the underground market and one not likely to crop up among the masses of office drones and SINers.

[Mordinvan]

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

Wasn't thinking ghoul. Was thinking vampire. Ghouls can eat from hospital wastes.

[Mordinvan]

Also SR4 has made it reasonably simple to fake money, which you can then launder, and turn into real money to pay for the clones. Or you can shell out for a facility and grow your own.

[Joe Chummer]

Also SR4 has made it reasonably simple to fake money, which you can then launder, and turn into real money to pay for the clones. Or you can shell out for a facility and grow your own.

But there's still the issue of growth rate. I can't recall how fast you can grow a fully adult clone, but just so long as your conscience is fine with draining the life out of a toddler every once in a while...

And this makes me think of a slightly off-topic but valid question:

An unmodified adult human has an Essence of 6, but does a newborn start with 6 Essence the moment it emerges from the womb, or does it gain Essence points as it matures towards adulthood? I mean, I highly doubt a toddler can handle as much cyberware or provide as much drinkable blood as a grownup can.

A cybered toddler. That thought makes me cringe.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

I highly doubt a toddler can handle as much cyberware or provide as much drinkable blood as a grownup can.

A cybered toddler. That thought makes me cringe.

Sure it can. It's just limited by the size of the implants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

When in doubt, don't allow such characters as PCs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Joe Chummer]

Sure it can. It's just limited by the size of the implants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

When in doubt, don't allow such characters as PCs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I wasn't suggesting toddlers as PCs. It was more for the sake of argument of how "nutritious" a clone that's been grown to toddler age would be for a vampire.

I mean, if, say, a toddler had only 1 or 2 points of essence because it's not that big yet, is it worth farming clones to that age if all you're going to get is little more than a snack?

[Dahrken]

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per essence point).

[Karoline]

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per essence point).

Or you could just offer the dregs of the sixth world 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to let you drain some of their essence. The best part is that people who are drained become addicted, so they would come back to you and beg to be drained again. "Okay, I'll drain you again, but I don't really need it, so I'll only give you 500." "Yeah, sure, whatever man, just do it!"

[Weaver95]

Or you could just offer the dregs of the sixth world 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to let you drain some of their essence. The best part is that people who are drained become addicted, so they would come back to you and beg to be drained again. "Okay, I'll drain you again, but I don't really need it, so I'll only give you 500." "Yeah, sure, whatever man, just do it!"

There's also plenty of people who you could drain that nobody would care about - pimps, gang bangers, low level drug dealers, various and sundry cheap thugs. A vampire could decide to feed only on the 'dregs of society' and probably do quite well for itself. In fact, you could even say they were doing the local community a favor.

[Karoline]

There's also plenty of people who you could drain that nobody would care about - pimps, gang bangers, low level drug dealers, various and sundry cheap thugs. A vampire could decide to feed only on the 'dregs of society' and probably do quite well for itself. In fact, you could even say they were doing the local community a favor.

I'm not a horrible monster, I'm just societies equivalent of a garbage man. I take out the trash (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Traul]

Here comes the horrid truth: Batman is a vampire.

[Stahlseele]

No matter how much you try and justify it, after all is said and done, no matter what justification, ghouls and vampires are still sick and twisted leeches on legs, eating and drinking the flesh and blood of (meta)humans.

[Mordinvan]

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per essence point).

Only if you grow it to adult hood.
A nine month old baby clone on the other hand would work just fine.

[Dahrken]

...and would probably qualify as a human being, making the legality of the whole process rather dubious.

Wimps for cloned transplants are grown without the higher brain structures IMHO not only because they are not necessary for their intended purpose, but also to allow their harvesting without possible legal complications.

[nezumi]

I've done a ghoul in SR3 (character was infected during gameplay). The party already knew him, and he had some tools to hide his nature. Since he was an adept, it didn't suck nearly as much as it could have. He didn't last long, unfortunately, when a team member cast fireball nearby in a room coated with highly flammable paranormal monster goo, booby-trapped with napalm bombs, while the character carried half a dozen C-4 detonators and a few parcels of C-4. It was... a quick roll.


I've considered adding a mopey, emo vampire who chastely pursues high school girls, but haven't gotten around to it yet.