 What has happened to hard rigging, for all those guys stuck with VCR |
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 Sep 23 2005, 09:47 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,002  |
Now SR4 has done alot to change the rules so that decking and rigging are the same since they now all share a wireless link but what has happened to the vehicle rigger or to all those guys still stuck with VCR implants. With everythig wireless, does the rigger just sit in the car and trust everythign now to his commlink or is there still jacks available for the interface. I am still waiting for a hardcopy and no one has as of yet talked more indepth of the changes to riggers.
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Sep 23 2005, 10:11 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
Well basically, a rigger in 2070 is just a hacker specialised in controlling vehicles. Any hacker can "jump into" a drone to control it like riggers of old, and is under no obligatin to actually be in the vehicle when he does it. As with everything in 2070, it can all be done wirelessly. Where a rigger differs from a typical hacker will be the addition of a control rig (a bit of cyberware that costs 0.5 essence, and gives a bonus to dice pools when jumped in to a vehicle. It doesn't give a reaction bonus) and specialised vehicle skills.
Of course, the old method still works, and a rigger can jump in a vehicle with a wire directly to his datajack, but the bonus this provides over the wireless method is it can't be jammed. When jumped in to a drone, the drone acts on the initiative of the rigger, and as he is under full VR at the time, this will mean he is able to achieve reaction speeds similar to those received under old rules without requiring the use of a VCR. |
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Sep 23 2005, 10:17 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,002 |
So basiclly the vcr has been replaced with hardware that is on the drone/vehicle side. Does this also mean that iniative is based on the type of vehicle or drone and not on the level of connection.
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Sep 23 2005, 10:23 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
No, the VCR has been replaced and outdated by virtually unlimited wireless bandwidth. As a hacker, your initiative in the matrix is based on how you are accessing it. You have 3 options. Augmented Reality, which is the real world with the matrix overlayed on to your real world vision. This uses your meat body initiative, and you can't rig a vehicle like this Alternatively, you have full VR, which is like the Matrix of old shadowrun version. And you can access this hot or cold. Hot pushes the ASIST interface beyond the limits of safety in order to get more speed. Cold uses cut outs to make sure you don't get brain fried, but at the cost of speed. You can use either of these methods to rig a vehicle, and the method you are using determines your initiative just as if you were hacking a system. So if you are rigging a vehicle with hot sim, you get 3 initiative passes, and if you are rigging it using cold sim, you get 2 initiative passes |
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Sep 23 2005, 10:25 AM
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#5
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i think the initiative is based on the meat body of the driver but dont quote me on this.
still, if its true then at last the wired sam can match the rigger more or less (outside of the 2 extra dice from the rig). |
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Sep 23 2005, 11:33 AM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Physical Initiative indeed applys when controlling a vehicle hands-on or through AR, making boosters quite interesting alternatives.
Controlling through VR reduces all Vehicle Test Thresholds by 1, replaces your Reaction with the Response of your Commlink, and possibly adds the bonus of the VCR, though. |
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Sep 23 2005, 11:49 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
There is no such thing as an old school VCR though. The new Control Rig just gives you a dice bonus when controlling vehicles you have jumped in to. It doesn't give you an initiative bonus If you're talking about old school VCRs, then all bets are off. The rules don't cover that, meaning that it's pretty much up to the GM to decide how to handle old school cyberware still in circulation in some old runner that hasn't been killed yet :) |
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Sep 23 2005, 11:57 AM
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#8
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If you are driving using AR, yes. In VR it is Response+Inititive cold and Response+Inititive+1 for hot, total of 2 Init Passes for cold and 3 Init Passes hot. For VR, even Datajacked directly to the car (i assume this is possible) you go through a sim module. Not sure what value is suppose to be used for Response at that point, or if you still need a commlink in the middle too (which would then give you your Response value). EDIT: I see Rotbart van Dainig mentioned Threshholds lowered by 1 for VR. I don't remember that, but he's usually pretty good with rules. EDIT2: Yup, there it is middle of the righthand side page 159. Note: You can still have the Docs cut into your head a piece of gear called a Control Rig. This is like the VCR of old but it: 1) is an optional extra 2) gives a flat +2 dice to "Vehicle skill tests" when jumped into a vehicle (over top of the +2 for hot VR is my understanding) 3) gives no extra Init Passes, no extra Init dice 4) does Gunnery of a turret count as a "Vehicle skill test"? EDIT: Actually there Gunnery is, listed under Vehicle Active Skills, so that would be a 'yes'. As to what happened to all those old riggers? Most got hooked on Long Haul, burned out, had their careers go down the tube, and now live in upstate Idaho with a fugly old lady and a head full of worthless wire. A few though got the old stuff ripped out and replaced with a Commlink, a Control Rig, a hot sim module, and in the case of people that had a VCR-3, a Playstation 17, a 1000 watt stereo amp/tuner, and a hot air popcorn popper to try use up the gaping Essense hole left by the VCR. :) |
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Sep 23 2005, 12:17 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
It still goes through your commlink as always, so you still use the response rating.
That's on p159, in the Vehicle Tests section of vehicle combat
No, you don't get the +2 for hot VR when rigging. That applies to Matrix actions only, and there is a fairly clear list of them on page 219. Rigging has it's own set of actions seperate from Matrix actions. |
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Sep 23 2005, 12:34 PM
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#10
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Note that Gunnery is now a Vehicle skill, thus the Control Rig legally applies its dice to Gunnery tests as well. :)
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Sep 23 2005, 12:38 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
However in the Matrix Jargon on page 218 it lists a Rigger as "a user who "jumps into" a properly-adapted device in order to directly control it as if he was that device." I'd say that it is still a Matrix action as it is being done by a Matrix user. It is just that she is a special user case (or a special case of a Control Device action if you like to think of it that way). From a game playability POV you do get a +2 on Control Device. Only giving them the bonus of +1 on Init for being hot sim when jumped in means that every rigger [that isn't suicidal] is going to run cold, whether with a Control Rig or not (there is no hot sim stipulation in the Control Rig description). EDIT: Or are you trying to say they wouldn't even get the +1 on Init rolls? P.S. Control Rig is also listed under Matrix Jargon. The car is a Matrix device in SR4. |
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Sep 23 2005, 12:44 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
This certainly seems to imply that riggering has access to a subset of Matrix actions that are beyond access to most Matrix users. I'm giving the rigger +2 for hot Sim. |
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Sep 23 2005, 12:49 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
The only thing I'm saying is that they don't +2 dice for Matrix actions for using hot sim and another +2 dice for using a control rig when they are jumped in to a drone and performing vehicle actions. They will get the extra initiative pass and the bonus to initiative for using hotsim. The hotsim dice bonus applies to Matrix actions, and the Control Rig dice bonus applies to vehicle actions. They two types of actions are distinct, and you can't get both bonuses on a single test |
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Sep 23 2005, 12:53 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
No, what it means is that when jumped in to a vehicle, a rigger can use the rigging actions listed on page 239. It also means they have access to Matrix actions and to combat actions. It doesn't imply anything one way or the other about unique rigger only matrix actions |
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Sep 23 2005, 12:58 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
"other combat and Matrix actions". Want to rule taking away the +2 die and +1 Init bonus while jumped into a vehicle? *shrug* I'd say it is not only dubious interpretation of the written rules, it's certainly a bad idea from a spirit and playability POV. |
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Sep 23 2005, 01:12 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
As I said, I'm not talking about initiative in any way. The only thing I am talking about is this line "You also receive an exceptional +2 dice pool bonus to all Matrix tests while in hot sim mode" My point of view is that a vehicle test (p 159) is most specifically not a Matrix test, and thus the bonus +2 dice for Matrix tests granted by hot sim mode is not relevant The initiative bonuses granted by hot sim is not specific to Matrix tests though. Whatever you are doing, if you're operating under hot sim, you get the appropriate initiative bonus |
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Sep 23 2005, 01:12 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Unfortunately the list you are using to determine what is a Matrix action is one that lists actions that are accessable to only to VR AND AR. Of course being jumped in isn't accessable to AR. :wobble:
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Sep 23 2005, 01:14 PM
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#18
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The only rigging actions that require a skill test on that list is "Fire a Weapon System". I don't think I'd give a +2 Matrix test dice bonus for that, since it is clearly a "real-world" test, although I would give +2 for a Control Rig (since Gunnery is a Vehicle skill) and +2 for a smartlink. If you look at the page reference p220, you only have these actions: Logging On/Off, Jacking Out, Controlling Devices, Issuing Commands, and Reboot. Of those, you would need Matrix skill rolls for certain situations under Controlling Devices or initiating a Reboot, but that's it.
VR already provides a huge bonus of -1 Threshold on Vehicle tests. I don't think it adds the +2 Matrix test dice on top of this. |
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Sep 23 2005, 01:25 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
But you get the -1 Threshhold cold or hot. P.S. Without that -1 Threshhold most PCs are likely much better off to just stay put in the meat because his Init and Init Passes are likely better out there. So VR would become weaker than being in the meat. |
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Sep 23 2005, 01:28 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
The advantage of hot sim for rigging is the extra initiatve pass, and the bonus to your initiative. That's still a very real reason to use hot sim, even if the +2 dice for Matrix actions doesn't apply |
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Sep 23 2005, 01:32 PM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
*shrug* Fire off an email to shadowrunrpg.com then. Likely the best way to get it in the FAQ (perhaps errata) too since it is rather nebulios. P.S. You likely should have put all in italics in that quote. ;) |
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Sep 23 2005, 01:41 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
It's not realy that nebulos. +2 dice to matrix actions for being in hot sim. +2 dice for vehicle actions while jumped in and having a control rig. Prety cut and dry. And considering both matrix actions and vehicle actions are defined I'm not sure where there's any controversy here the idea that it's not clear is rather silly. |
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Sep 23 2005, 04:58 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Hmmmm, I'd been interpreting this wrong. I'd read the line "A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are made using the rigger’s own skill and attributes" to mean the rigger uses his meat initiative, not his VR initiative.
Anybody with a Comm, a rigger adapted vehicle, and a Command program (any rating) can "jump into" a vehicle. A typical comm would run in cold VR (Response+Intuition, 2-IP) and give a -1 threshold to all tests. Add a Control Rig and get +2 to Vehicle skill tests (Gunnery, Pilot). Compare this to driving with a +1 die from AR and using meat initiative. So the cybered up and the cheap may avoid the 2,500:nuyen: rigger adaption but everyone else should go for it as a discount on their insurance. (Your fake SIN does have insurance on the car, right?) If I've got this right, it also means that magic users can easily be decent riggers with a fast Comm and a set of 'trodes. Sure, they probably forgo the CR but they've got enough willpower to soak biofeedback that would come from running in hot VR. |
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Sep 23 2005, 05:34 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That's the theory, i'll let you know how it works out. I did find that it probably is too costly at 400BP (well actually 420BP that one is built at) to get the Control Rig. Even though that lets you fit in some other cool stuff, like Cerebral Enchancers to help with Hermetic Drain, i thought it hurt the Magic side too much.
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Sep 23 2005, 09:17 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I just like the fact it gives the mage the option to have another job. The Hermetic mage in our not-really-a-campaign already commented on the fact he could easily pick up some basic matrix skills as either a supplement to his arcane income or to help back up his SINs. Being able to handle wheelman duties as well is a double bonus.
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