HMHVV and Vampires - Dumpshock Forums

HMHVV and Vampires

Eggs View Member Profile	Nov 19 2005, 09:04 PM Post #51
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 11-November 05 From: Tri-Cities, WA - USA Member No.: 7,947	That's what the Shedim are for :D

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Nov 19 2005, 09:15 PM Post #52
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	Interesting note: The SR4 Ghoul does not have the Pestilence power, nor did the SR2 Ghoul nor the SR1 Ghoul. Ghouls only had Pestilence in SR3. In all the other wirteups, including the current one, Ghoulishness is non-catching. But if you want the dead running around like a Romero film, Shedim work wonders. -Frank

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Nov 19 2005, 11:21 PM Post #53
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Right. Ghouls are more like a Resident Evil game.

Grinder View Member Profile	Nov 20 2005, 12:36 PM Post #54
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Combining both makes a nice scenario. I overread the Dietary Requeriments entry in the SR4 BBB, sorry for that. Odd that fluff and crunch text are nit matching in this case.

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Nov 20 2005, 05:12 PM Post #55
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	Oh it matches. They eat meat. All kinds of meat. They need acertain amount of unspecified metahuman flesh in their diet or they will get sick. But their metahuman flesh requirements for about a kilogram (2000-9000 Calories) of flesh a week are less than their total caloric requirements (17,500 Calories a week). So obviously they must be able to eat something else - that something else is non-human carrion most of the time. -Frank

Gothic Rose

Nov 20 2005, 05:21 PM

Post #56

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 355
Joined: 3-October 05
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Member No.: 7,803

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Oh it matches. They eat meat. All kinds of meat.

They need acertain amount of unspecified metahuman flesh in their diet or they will get sick. But their metahuman flesh requirements for about a kilogram (2000-9000 Calories) of flesh a week are less than their total caloric requirements (17,500 Calories a week). So obviously they must be able to eat something else - that something else is non-human carrion most of the time.

-Frank

I always assume that, to a ghouls palate, Metahuman flesh tastes better than any other flesh - it just kind of makes sense, if you think about it. So, what I find kind of funny is that a sentient, "normal" personalities ghoul eats BEST when s/he is hard on his/her luck and has to scavenge, vs., say, having to pay top prices for real meat from real animals.

Just an interesting tidbit that I love RPing with my own ghoul character.

I'm quite surprised that ghouls don't have the power to spread Krieger RAW. That's....kinda wrong.

blakkie

Nov 20 2005, 06:21 PM

Post #57

Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263

QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Nov 20 2005, 11:21 AM)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 20 2005, 12:12 PM)

Oh it matches. They eat meat. All kinds of meat.

They need acertain amount of unspecified metahuman flesh in their diet or they will get sick. But their metahuman flesh requirements for about a kilogram (2000-9000 Calories) of flesh a week are less than their total caloric requirements (17,500 Calories a week). So obviously they must be able to eat something else - that something else is non-human carrion most of the time.

-Frank

I always assume that, to a ghouls palate, Metahuman flesh tastes better than any other flesh - it just kind of makes sense, if you think about it. So, what I find kind of funny is that a sentient, "normal" personalities ghoul eats BEST when s/he is hard on his/her luck and has to scavenge, vs., say, having to pay top prices for real meat from real animals.

Just an interesting tidbit that I love RPing with my own ghoul character.

Ya, that's why i tossed in the Interview with the Vampire quote about "surviving". In some ways i'm a bit surprised that they didn't do vampires like that but instead required that the victim have Sapience.

QUOTE

I'm quite surprised that ghouls don't have the power to spread Krieger RAW. That's....kinda wrong.

It isn't given as a Power, however they are still created by infection with the Krieger HMHVV (something that SR1 didn't have, i believe, in no small part because in canon it was simply unknown what caused ghouls to be ghouls). The Infection power is only for Essense Drain critters as it has special properties regarding 0 Essense.

Incidentally this is another area where Frank has been spreading his usual brand of disinformation. In becoming a vampire the original vampire victim might for a moment (perhaps a second) be "dead", but are brought to near death by the Infection power. But it is still described as being the "victim", not the "victim's body". So the person they were is still there even though they then under go a "physical, mental, and spiritual transformation."

QUOTE

Th e victim enters into a
state of near-death, as the infection initiates physical, mental,
and spiritual transformation

Of course the power does not explicitly require the Infection power to immediately be used, so there is some flexibility there on the GM's part as the vampire/wendigo could by SR4 BBB RAW Infect a victim from 10 years back. But such is the nature of the tone of SR4. As someone mentioned here, SR4 reads like it was written by gamers and not lawyers. (whovever said that please let know, i have been meaning to add the quote to my sig and haven found it yet)

As for ghouls Fanpro has left out of the BBB the specifics on the subject of becoming a ghoul including how virulent Krieger is, infection vectors, and such.

FrankTrollman

Nov 20 2005, 06:22 PM

Post #58

Prime Runner

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665

QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

I'm quite surprised that ghouls don't have the power to spread Krieger RAW. That's....kinda wrong.

It was canon storyline before SR3. Those of us who have had Ghoul plotlines going for 15 years deeply applaud the "change".

-Frank

FrankTrollman

Nov 20 2005, 06:32 PM

Post #59

Prime Runner

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665

Blakkie, stop being a tool. I know it's hard for you. But we've already gone over this in other threads. The case is completely open and shut:

QUOTE (The Essence Attribute)

Under basic Shadowrun rules, characters can never have an Essence of 0 or less. If they do, they die.

QUOTE (Essence Drain Power)

If a character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies.

QUOTE (Infection Power)

Th e Infection power allows a critter with Essence Drain to infect any suitable creature it has drained to 0 Essence with the strain of the HMHVV virus it is carrying.

It allows them to infect anyone they drain to zero essence with HMHVV. If they drain them to zero, they fucking die. End of discussion, it not only says in the basic rules that there is no exception to this, it also states bluntly in the Essence Drain power that any character that is defined as being suitable for infection in the Infection Power is dead. As soon as the vampire takes your last essence point, you're dead. Period.

Now, what's the Vampire itself?

QUOTE (Infection Power)

Within 24 hours the newly created critter revives at 1 Essence and must immediately drain Essence from another being.

Is it "the victim"? Is it "The character"? NO! It's a critter. It's even a "newly created critter". It's as much you as an Insect Spirit is. Maybe less. The Infection power doesn't even specify that the newly created critter has all of the memories of the victim - that part is left for the game master to decide.

I know you're kinky for vampires and want them to playable or some shit. I don't care. The shadowrun vampire is and always has been a dangerous monster in viral form.

-Frank

blakkie

Nov 20 2005, 06:33 PM

Post #60

Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263

QUOTE (blakkie)

Incidentally this is another area where Frank has been spreading his usual brand of disinformation. In becoming a vampire the original vampire victim might for a moment (perhaps a second) be "dead", but are brought to near death by the Infection power. But it is still described as being the "victim", not the "victim's body". So the person they were is still there even though they then under go a "physical, mental, and spiritual transformation."

This of course ties in well with the past canon of a cabal of vampires specializing in creating cyberzombies. Who better to unlock the secrets of cheating and perverting the death caused by 0 Essense than someone that does it naturally?

blakkie

Nov 20 2005, 06:39 PM

Post #61

Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263

Please shovel your shit somewhere else Frank. Thanks!

EDIT:

QUOTE

Blakkie, stop being a tool. I know it's hard for you. But we've already gone over this in other threads. The case is completely open and shut:

As for this, shall i recreate the list of bullshit misinformation you have spewn before, reputed not just by myself but others as well? The "open and shut" cases where you then still continue to spew your nonsense? A list we can then go over with an electron microscope. :wobble:

blakkie

Nov 20 2005, 07:17 PM

Post #62

Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 20 2005, 12:32 PM)

Is it "the victim"? Is it "The character"? NO! It's a critter. It's even a "newly created critter". It's as much you as an Insect Spirit is. Maybe less. The Infection power doesn't even specify that the newly created critter has all of the memories of the victim - that part is left for the game master to decide.

I guess so i can just link back here later when you, no doubt, again start spewing your fucktard misinformation....

It is the "victim" transformed into a critter. "The victim" brought back from the dead (or the 0 Essense cusp as it were). As per the text.

Gothic Rose

Nov 20 2005, 08:29 PM

Post #63

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 355
Joined: 3-October 05
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Member No.: 7,803

QUOTE (blakkie)

Ya, that's why i tossed in the Interview with the Vampire quote about "surviving". In some ways i'm a bit surprised that they didn't do vampires like that but instead required that the victim have Sapience.

It isn't given as a Power, however they are still created by infection with the Krieger HMHVV (something that SR1 didn't have, i believe, in no small part because in canon it was simply unknown what caused ghouls to be ghouls). The Infection power is only for Essense Drain critters as it has special properties regarding 0 Essense.

Incidentally this is another area where Frank has been spreading his usual brand of disinformation. In becoming a vampire the original vampire victim might for a moment (perhaps a second) be "dead", but are brought to near death by the Infection power. But it is still described as being the "victim", not the "victim's body". So the person they were is still there even though they then under go a "physical, mental, and spiritual transformation."

QUOTE

Th e victim enters into a
state of near-death, as the infection initiates physical, mental,
and spiritual transformation

Of course the power does not explicitly require the Infection power to immediately be used, so there is some flexibility there on the GM's part as the vampire/wendigo could by SR4 BBB RAW Infect a victim from 10 years back. But such is the nature of the tone of SR4. As someone mentioned here, SR4 reads like it was written by gamers and not lawyers. (whovever said that please let know, i have been meaning to add the quote to my sig and haven found it yet)

As for ghouls Fanpro has left out of the BBB the specifics on the subject of becoming a ghoul including how virulent Krieger is, infection vectors, and such.

Yeah, I got the IwtV quote. Dunno if that should scare me or not. :P

Ahh, alright, thanks for clarifying the bit on ghouls spreading Krieger, blakkie. I haven't read the Critter Powahz, and I'm lazy, so I probably wasn't going to check them until sometime far into the future. I do wish they'd tossed Krieger HMHVV into the BBB, but I can understand why they didn't bother - hopefully Running Wild or some other upcoming book will cover Ghouls in more depth, including the virulence of Krieger (though really, in SR3, very few Runners would EVER actually contract Krieger.)

It seems to me that vampires DIE, but then they're simply REVIVED. You know, kind of like how my real life friend Chris DIED after a car accident, but the paramedics REVIVED him. It happens.

FrankTrollman

Nov 20 2005, 08:46 PM

Post #64

Prime Runner

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665

Oh, and Infection is "Action: Auto" like Hardened Armor. So all that crap by blakkie about it being "used in the future" is just that - crap. Infection isn't used at all. It's not a choice, it's not an action. Creatures that have Infection have the potential to create a vampire every time they kill someone with their Essence Drain Power. No more, no less.

QUOTE

It seems to me that vampires DIE, but then they're simply REVIVED. You know, kind of like how my real life friend Chris DIED after a car accident, but the paramedics REVIVED him. It happens.

Oh, I've totally done that. But Vampires are "created". Note that the book doesn't specify how long it takes to die from essence loss, so the most likely order of events is this:

You get drained of all your essence.
You lie there in a state of near death for up to 24 hours while you undergo transformations.
You die.
A vampire is created from your corpse.

It's pretty unambiguous that you die, and that the vampire is a "newly created critter". It doesn't use ambiguous language like "the transformed character" - it uses the other language. Of course, depending upon how you feel about identity, the newly created vampire might be the same person anyway. But only if you also accept the identity of some other creatures that the Shadowrun authors seem strongly inclinated to tell you do not share identity (such as good merge termites).

-Frank

Drac View Member Profile	Nov 20 2005, 08:55 PM Post #65
Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819	There are at the very least 3 official vampires in different Shadowrun sourcebooks that remained pretty much the same person after infection. Shadowrun vampires are not Buffy vamps who lose their soul and get posessed by demons after infection.

Grinder

Nov 20 2005, 08:56 PM

Post #66

Great, I'm a Dragon...

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 6,699
Joined: 8-October 03
From: North Germany
Member No.: 5,698

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Creatures that have Infection have the potential to create a vampire every time they kill someone with their Essence Drain Power. No more, no less.

Huh? Iirc everyx critter with Essence Drain was able to only create critters of his kind. Vampires created vampires, wendigos created wendigos etcpp.

Halabis

Nov 20 2005, 09:05 PM

Post #67

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 232
Joined: 19-October 04
Member No.: 6,773

QUOTE (Grinder)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 20 2005, 09:46 PM)

Creatures that have Infection have the potential to create a vampire every time they kill someone with their Essence Drain Power. No more, no less.

Huh? Iirc everyx critter with Essence Drain was able to only create critters of his kind. Vampires created vampires, wendigos created wendigos etcpp.

Nope, they create whatever the race they infect becomes. Vampires/Banshee's (the only two with the ability to spread the diease{easily}) create Vampires in humans, Dzoo-noo-qua in trolls, Goblins in Dwarves, Windigo in orcs, and Banshees in elves. It all depends on what the victim was.

And in the case of Blakkie Vs Frank, blakkie is right. =)

FrankTrollman

Nov 20 2005, 09:06 PM

Post #68

Prime Runner

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665

QUOTE (Grinder)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 20 2005, 09:46 PM)

Creatures that have Infection have the potential to create a vampire every time they kill someone with their Essence Drain Power. No more, no less.

Huh? Iirc everyx critter with Essence Drain was able to only create critters of his kind. Vampires created vampires, wendigos created wendigos etcpp.

Well, I was using vampire in the generic "has the vampiric virus" meaning. However, according to 4th edition it is the metavariant of the victim that determines the outcome of infection.

QUOTE

Vampires are humans infected with HMHVV

QUOTE

A wendigo is an ork infected with HMHVV.

The Banshee, Fomorian, Goblin, Dzoo-Noo-Qua, and Nosferatu get no love in the BBB.

-Frank

Stormdrake View Member Profile	Nov 20 2005, 10:27 PM Post #69
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623	Have a question on Banshee's. In the third edition critter book they are described as a spirit not a vampire like being created by HMHVV. Are there two creatures with the same name or did the writers change something between 2nd and 3rd edition? different question, the Orc, Troll versions of vampires seem to be rather weaker than the human version in that they do not have as many powers. (Again, this is coming out of 3rd edition critter book) Any specific reason for this? May be just the way I am looking at them but did wonder what others thought.

Grinder

Nov 20 2005, 11:11 PM

Post #70

Great, I'm a Dragon...

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 6,699
Joined: 8-October 03
From: North Germany
Member No.: 5,698

QUOTE (Halabis)

[/QUOTE]
Huh? Iirc everyx critter with Essence Drain was able to only create critters of his kind. Vampires created vampires, wendigos created wendigos etcpp. [/QUOTE]
Nope, they create whatever the race they infect becomes. Vampires/Banshee's (the only two with the ability to spread the diease{easily}) create Vampires in humans, Dzoo-noo-qua in trolls, Goblins in Dwarves, Windigo in orcs, and Banshees in elves. It all depends on what the victim was.

Ah yeah, that's more what i wanted to say, thank you :)

Grinder

Nov 20 2005, 11:13 PM

Post #71

Great, I'm a Dragon...

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 6,699
Joined: 8-October 03
From: North Germany
Member No.: 5,698

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Well, I was using vampire in the generic "has the vampiric virus" meaning. However, according to 4th edition it is the metavariant of the victim that determines the outcome of infection.

That's why i was confused. :)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

The Banshee, Fomorian, Goblin, Dzoo-Noo-Qua, and Nosferatu get no love in the BBB.

And that's really a shame.

FrankTrollman

Nov 20 2005, 11:21 PM

Post #72

Prime Runner

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665

QUOTE (Stormdrake)

Have a question on Banshee's. In the third edition critter book they are described as a spirit not a vampire like being created by HMHVV. Are there two creatures with the same name or did the writers change something between 2nd and 3rd edition?

The Bean-Sidhe is a spirit, the Banshee is an Elf with HMHVV. Needlessly confusing, I know. But it isn't as bad as the Fomorian.

QUOTE

different question, the Orc, Troll versions of vampires seem to be rather weaker than the human version in that they do not have as many powers. (Again, this is coming out of 3rd edition critter book) Any specific reason for this? May be just the way I am looking at them but did wonder what others thought.

The Wendigo has mental domination powers and is widely regarded as one of the nastiest things on the market today. The Dzoo-Noo-Qua is something of a pushover compared to the Wendigo, Banshee, or Vampire - but so is the Goblin. Apparently, HMHVV just doesn't work well on our thermographic seeing cousins.

:shrug:

-Frank

Grinder

Nov 20 2005, 11:22 PM

Post #73

Great, I'm a Dragon...

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 6,699
Joined: 8-October 03
From: North Germany
Member No.: 5,698

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Apparently, HMHVV just doesn't work well on our thermographic seeing cousins.

It's a virus - it doesn't need to play fair or by the book ;)

blakkie

Nov 21 2005, 02:18 PM

Post #74

Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 20 2005, 02:46 PM)

Oh, and Infection is "Action: Auto" like Hardened Armor. So all that crap by blakkie about it being "used in the future" is just that - crap. Infection isn't used at all. It's not a choice, it's not an action. Creatures that have Infection have the potential to create a vampire every time they kill someone with their Essence Drain Power. No more, no less.

QUOTE

It seems to me that vampires DIE, but then they're simply REVIVED. You know, kind of like how my real life friend Chris DIED after a car accident, but the paramedics REVIVED him. It happens.

Oh, I've totally done that. But Vampires are "created". Note that the book doesn't specify how long it takes to die from essence loss, so the most likely order of events is this:

You get drained of all your essence.
You lie there in a state of near death for up to 24 hours while you undergo transformations.
You die.
A vampire is created from your corpse.

It's pretty unambiguous that you die, and that the vampire is a "newly created critter". It doesn't use ambiguous language like "the transformed character" - it uses the other language. Of course, depending upon how you feel about identity, the newly created vampire might be the same person anyway. But only if you also accept the identity of some other creatures that the Shadowrun authors seem strongly inclinated to tell you do not share identity (such as good merge termites).

-Frank

Look at that, didn't even take you a 1 1/2 hours. LOL. Damn you're thick.

QUOTE (Grinder)

It's a virus - it doesn't need to play fair or by the book

A magic virus. :)

TheScrivener View Member Profile	Nov 22 2005, 07:42 AM Post #75
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Omaha, western UCAS Member No.: 7,993	Um... crunchy bits aside, can we look at something about this virus? Viruses have spread patterns. Even with a weird-ass method of transmission like M/HVV, it has to spread somehow to manifest. So, where do we see the vampiric virus the most? Not in vampires, banshees, wendigos, etcetera. In GHOULS. So the fact that Ghouls don't have the Pestilence 'power' or Infection 'ability' or whatthehellever, the fact remains that those 'packs of six to twenty' mentioned in the SR4 book sure as shootin' don't come from nowhere. Ghouls don't have the Infection power because it's easier to become a ghoul than a vampire - you don't have to die (or near-die, or go to imaginary no-essence cyberzombie land) to turn ghoul. Personally I use the toxin rules for Krieger - Injection-vector disease, Speed 1 week, Penetration -1, Power 6, and we all know the effects. A proper booster shot can help ward off the effects, but you don't want to fool around in the Barrens when the ghoul packs are out. Of course those are house rules... but it's better than spending my time trying to figure out whether i'm dead or not, or considered a critter. I'm pretty sure the undead don't spend much time worrying.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »