 Initiative Passes: Cyber/bio vs VR/astral |
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 Nov 30 2005, 05:54 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832  |
I've been wondering about the descrepency in Initiative Passes for Cyber/Bio characters and VR/astral characters. It seems that all VR and astral characters get locked down at 3 IP, Yet Cyber and Bio can go up to 4 IP. So its possible to be faster in the meat world than in VR or the astral plane? That seems kind of odd to me.
This can lead to other issues, a character with 4 IP, is faster hacking in AR than in VR, would have more actions driving a car than a rigger jumped in, a mage with 4 IP could cast more than if they astrally projected. I didn't really see this subject touched anywhere in the SR4 forums so I thought I'd bring it up. Is there a balance reason to cap some at 3 and others at 4? edit: RunnerPaul mentions here that "Especially since in SR4 all the various Reaction Enhancements and the methods for getting extra init passes do still apply when in control of a vehicle." does anyone know of a book reference for that? |
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Nov 30 2005, 06:03 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Astral mages with Increase Reflexes running get 4 IPs, yeah?
Looking at the spell description, it really doesn't say if the extra IPs are exclusively physical or not. It could even work in VR, as written. |
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Nov 30 2005, 07:31 PM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
No, it is a Physical spell. Therefore does not affect a projecting mage. It does affect dual natured, but only because they are using their IP of their Physical plane body.
More actions doesn't nessasarily mean "faster". |
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Nov 30 2005, 07:40 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Good catch; it's still working for VR, though. |
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Nov 30 2005, 07:50 PM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yup, it's still working and comes into effect when you concentrate and suppress the VR to act in the meat. However the matrix initiative system overrides your physical initiative while you are acting in VR. Yes that is incredibily difficult to reconcile with Adepts gaining the benefit of Improved Ability: Technical while VR (or maybe they weren't intended to, i forget the entire string of stuff that allows that, has it been confirmed?) |
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Nov 30 2005, 07:59 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
True, but the spell doesn't say it adds to your physical initative. Just your initiative (if you're a physical target). |
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Nov 30 2005, 08:11 PM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Physical inititative is implied. Maybe, but I doubt very much it was intended to include the Matrix initiative. *shrug* |
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Nov 30 2005, 08:44 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
A dangerous word. |
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Nov 30 2005, 08:48 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yet extremely important. :) Seriously, do you really think that 3 IP were allocated with the intention of having it augmented with Increase Reflexes? You get the 3 IP because you ditch all the goodies (wires, bio, powers, spells). |
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Nov 30 2005, 08:56 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Regardless, Technomancers can get a 4th IP in VR if that's what they want to do (hint: it is).
-Frank |
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Nov 30 2005, 09:02 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
What I'm saying is that one man's "implied" is another man's "assumed."
SR4 is so full of holes that I, for one, don't take things for granted anymore. Look at Mystic Adepts and spell Force caps; the RAW seemed to imply one thing, and a developer stated the opposite. I'm not asserting that Increase Reflexes needs to be able to speed up VR actions. I'm saying that the RAW, through either intentional design or poor wording, suggests that it can. For that matter the RAW implies you can cast the spell on a drone as long as you hit the Threshold. |
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Nov 30 2005, 09:03 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Overclocking good! :) |
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Nov 30 2005, 09:10 PM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yes, you can twist the reading of the RAW to have them influence VR. I suggest that if you find yourself in a room with someone that insists that they do you rip off their arm and use it to beat them to death. The gaming world, and perhaps even the world at large, will be made a much better place for it. :) Now, to fix up my sig..... |
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Nov 30 2005, 09:26 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
:please:
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Nov 30 2005, 09:32 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
I'm afraid I don't follow your logic on that, can you explain your reasoning blakkie? |
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Nov 30 2005, 11:35 PM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Raw speed doesn't always mean extra actions. The extra action can come from more effeciency in your actions than actual speed. Also the faster travel rate of astral doesn't nessasarily translate to always having more, or at least as many, actions. Another example are Trolls compared to other metahumans. Faster movement rate, on average later to act, and given same gear they have the same number of IPs. |
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Dec 1 2005, 04:29 AM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
When the subject first came up, it was more of a case of not ever finding any book reference that said that they don't. After explicit declarations of what doesn't count when operating a vehicle in the previous three editions, the curious absence of any such prohibition in SR4 appears to be a philosophy change for the new edition. |
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Dec 1 2005, 04:32 AM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
...Although it does seem like your Astral Stats should apply while in VR, it never says that anywhere.
-Frank |
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Dec 1 2005, 05:04 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, it has all this fluff about being cut off from your meat, and that your physical initiative is replaced (replacing Reaction attribute with your commlink Responce). But it doesn't bother to mention the general substituting of mental for physical Attributes. :( Although that might be partially because it is rare that Attributes, much less physical Attributes, are used in a dice pools in VR. The only case for physical Attributes seems to be when "jumped in" to a vehicle. Not that that is directly related to Paul's original statement since he was talking about driving without VR. |
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Dec 1 2005, 03:32 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I will now illustrate the merits of citing reference material. Emphasis mine, and self-correction mine.
Since Increase Reflexes is a Health spell and a drone is not a living body, it does not apply. There's still a grey cloud of "iffy" around VR use, though. If you subscribe to the idea that the spell will speed up your mind to keep up with your accelerated body, then it seems like it'd apply (for instance, you can now Observe in Detail more times per second). However, if you believe that the spell works on only your meat or it's actually the commlink making the actions, not you... then it wouldn't apply. |
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Dec 1 2005, 07:01 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
The problem is though, that there are different maximums for different character types, riggers have a 3 maximum, technomancers can get 4, bio or cyber users can get 4, mages astrally only get 3, but mages physically can get 4. Is there anyway to explain or solve this difference? Looking over my book (now that its with me), it seems that "the speed of thought" is only 3 IP
So does this mean wired 3 makes you act more often than the speed of thought? |
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Dec 1 2005, 07:15 PM
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#22
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Wired doesn't enchance one's reactions so much as override them. A Wired character is, on a very basic level, controled by computer. This is why wired characters tend to kill fast moving children and people who hold their credsticks the wrong way if they don't have a reflex trigger. |
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Dec 1 2005, 07:26 PM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yes, you act more often than your concious thought. :) Which is also what Technomancers apparently do since they can get their 4th IP through immersion, as can anyone spending a point of Edge. *shrug* |
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Dec 2 2005, 10:07 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
And remember that, even if you spend edge, you can never gain more than 4 IP. So for a little bit those 3 IP people can up it.
I'm actually more concerned about the opposite effect: the hackers and riggers effectively get 3 IP for FREE. Mages have to sustain a spell, sammies and adepts ahve to pay for the powers, but them riggers, technomancers and hackers get it just for logging in. There seems to be such a general proliferation of extra inititive passes everwhere that I'm a little put off that everyone acts at faster than human speeds. |
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Dec 2 2005, 10:46 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
Mages can also just project.
Of course all of the above are fairly limited in what they can do to lay the smack down. |
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