Recruitment (sorta): SR4 Ganger Game, Collaborative Fiction on the streets Options

[Wounded Ronin]

[Dale]

I could've sworn that a lot of gang members were in their 20's or 30's...I sincerely doubt there are many teenage Hell's Angels or Satan's Choice members at all.

[FrankTrollman]

[TinkerGnome]

I'm still working out the specifics of character generation over here in the SR4 forum. Feel free to jump in there. I'm considering cutting down the bp even more (to 250 or 275) to give us fairly green gangers. I'm also considering making awakened (including technomancer) cost more since mages should really be less common among the downtrodden (these are the folks who can easily climb out of poverty if they have the will).

Before you lynch me for the low BP totals, I'm intending to hand out karma at a fairly rapid rate. A minimum of 1 karma per week of real time if you're posting. The advancement will be quick, but to me this would be more natural and, overall, better than starting out strong.

I think the demographics of gangs will have shifted a fair bit by 2070. In modern day, the cultures of poverty which most often lead to gang affiliation are not as widespread as those in 2070, nor is society as intolerant of the lower classes. One of the truths of the US in the modern age is that there is a large amount of social mobility where the poorest people often move up to middle or even upper class over their lives. In 2070, I don't think you see anywhere near that level of mobility. The poor stay poor and the rich stay rich.

The ages and the like are probably going to be a bit different, though I like the idea of young gangers. I like the idea of having a few older NPC gangers around in the beginning and, over time, having the PCs come into those roles.

[Cold-Dragon]

This sounds entertaining, if a tad crazy in setup to me - but hey, how often would i get an opportunity to play a too-young runner/ganger? I could have some fun with that, heheh...


obviously, getting gear is going to be a little less typical with some gangs. If cops/Lonestar are keeping an eye on you, that makes 'acquiring' more risky with being busted.

And then there's cyberware you DO have that's obvious, and getting labeled with it through the gang.

"Oh yeah, there's some crazy guy with these big scissor fingers in <soandso> gang! They sometimes go to the 80's diner. Freaks...."

Or something like that, lol.

[WinterRat1]

A few more thoughts/suggestions:

Re Race: I agree with ES Sparky that many gangs are often of homogenous races, and in general, that is a common trend in both the real world and SR.

However, I would point out this is where all the elements of a gang are interconnected.

For example, say the gang is starting in Redmond. We have canon material (Sprawl Sites) that states a large percentage of race oriented gangs. However, other factors such as size and status matter considerably.

Say the gang in question is one just starting out, maybe a block or two of turf they aspire to, because the current powers that be are just too much for the would be gangers to deal with. In that situation, it's highly likely they'd take who they could get. A gang just starting out in a highly competitive environment is less likely to be picky about its members than in a less gang dense area, if only because they need to recruit, because if they don't take X, someone else will. Surrounding circumstances can influence things considerably.

Also, the focus of the gang makes a big difference. Say the focus of the gang is money. Taking the most efficient route to money is the goal. In that case, some members may not like trolls, but who better to run the enforcement rackets? Conversely, elf and human females are more likely to be desired by the general populace than say troll females. Diversity goes from being a weakness to strength.

So allowing all races can make sense without a 'hey, we love everyone, let's all be friends' fuzzy mentality. Racial tensions can be present, and even role-played. In fact, it provides ample opportunity for what is a trusim in gangs. Frank Trollman knows a lot about gangs, so I won't bother repeating or adding to his stats, but suffice to say that there is a lot of fear and uncertainty in any gang. You never know who might sell you out to the cops, or stab you in the back to make the big time, or just flat out can't be trusted for any number of reasons. The tension of not necessarily liking the people you gang with doesn't remove the need to at least have a good working relationship. Still, in the end, efficiency and effectiveness can often have a powerful effect on people’s prejudices.

Re Age: Again, this could actually vary considerably due to the metahuman age differences. Is it possible to have all the characters (perhaps of different races) be the same age? Yes, but remember that an ork or troll at 14 is far more physically mature than a human of the same age. There's actually a good chance that you'd have younger orks and trolls with older humans, elves and dwarves. So age could potentially be more variable than it would be in a real life setting.

Gang creation: It was asked earlier if we would form the gang first, then have all players create PCs to fit the gang, or vice versa. Given the broad diversity of ideas, and the premise that everyone seems reasonably open to the 'gang from scratch idea' (at least, I haven't heard anyone openly speak against it) I have a suggestion.

Allow everyone who is interested to created a ganger character using only TG's creation rules thus far. Leave out gang-specific aspects of the background, and focus on the character prior to joining the gang.

Next, tie the characters lives together. Work with other players to create links that would conceivably tie the characters together. As long as everyone is tied to at least one other person in a reasonable fashion (preferably more), this would work.

Then, all that is really needed is one solid reason to form the gang, and that’s about it. The rest could conceivably be developed during play.

A real world example: In 1969 the Crips were founded out in L.A. (I won’t provide details, they’re easy enough to look up) and rapidly became one of the largest, if not the largest gang in the LA area. Obviously, sheer numbers were a significant advantage, and to make a long story short, in approximately 1972 the Bloods were formed to combat the Crip numerical supremacy. To give you an idea, when the Bloods were first formed, they were outnumber approximately 10 to 1. That’s after the alliance, I might add. Can you imagine the ratio of Crips to individual gangs before? It is clear that one reason, if strong enough, can really be all a gang needs to set aside their differences.

Admittedly, both the Bloods and the Crips were predominantly African-American, but the groups that formed the Bloods were diverse enough to be ‘outside the homogenous norm’ with respects to their similarities.

Essentially, a common threat was sufficient reason to ignore their differences and focus on what tied them together.

Within the context of gang creation for SR, if all the characters are tied together in some way, shape, or form, given the prevalence of gangs in Redmond, forming a gang simply in response to all the other gangs out there for mutual benefit and protection could logically be reason enough.

I doubt that most gang leaders sat down and drew up a list of rules, rituals, procedures, policies, goals, etc. before starting anything. Most gangs form their culture over time. As they grow and develop, their culture will form itself.

Similarly, if we are starting from scratch, as the more charismatic leader types rise to the top, and the gang conducts its operations, the gang will gradually take shape.

Attempting to lay out all the guidelines and details of the gang before even getting started could be time consuming at best, ultimately counter-productive at worst, as it is clear we all have different ideas and visions of what directions to go with a gang.

Playing through the development of the gang would make the process much easier. Say some of the gangers want to race, and in their first race, they total the main vehicle, which may move the gang away from racing into another direction. Or the gang may end up stealing lots of cars to get parts in order to repair the wrecked one. Then we have a chop shop and racing gang. Or maybe some members go one way, and others go the other way. Now the gang has diversified itself, which opens the door for new types of members to recruit and story hooks to move towards

The point is, it is the game itself that shapes the gang, and not us all sitting around debating, which, knowing the Dumpshock people, could go on for quite some time. :) If we focus on the people behind the gang and play through the events that develop the gang truly from scratch, it will at least ensure we all have the freedom to attempt to influence the development of the gang towards what we’d like it to be. And hopefully, even the process of doing so will provide fun, gaming, and hopefully a great story, instead of writing an instruction manual for “SR Gang Number 393818190”.

This is long enough, so I’ll pause and ask for some thoughts. Fire away.

[WinterRat1]

[Cold-Dragon]

...Maybe we should appoint you as Tinker's assistant? lol!

Still, nice detail and thoroughness, so in all seriousness I give you thumbs up and an actual lil' mark for doing so well.

and don't worry about missing things - I came in late, so technically I missed it without being there. :P

[HeySparky]

Let me go on record as saying I think Winterat's organic gang construction idea is genius.

I think it will be hard to pull off with so many people involved, but totally worth it. The biggest thing to me would be that we need to make sure we all instersect (geographically/socially/emotionally) in some important way around the formation of the gang. And what that circumstance is and where it generally occurs would be a good place to bat around ideas.

(I still think we should try to be relatively homogenous by race for a number of reasons, but I'm certainly not going to die on that hill. The ultimate goal of that is a sort of unity and group think (good and bad sense) that that sort of fundamental homogeneity would foster)

[Thanee]

I can now see, why WinterRat felt it necessary to mention in the LitS thread, that he won't abandon his work there... :D

Good stuff! :)

I also like the idea of 'creating' the gang in play, but I do think we should find some sort of foundation prior to that, otherwise we might never get anywhere. ;)

I wouldn't mind turning the gang into a go-gang, that offers some neat possibilities, since they are more mobile and would get up a bit from that kiddie-gangstah-style. ;)

Bye
Thanee

[BlackHat]

While I still think that a racially homogenous gang would really limit the sorts of characters people could play, or might want to play, it seems that the majority of people here like that idea... so one important step might be to just take a quick vote on what the race would be. :-)

I will obviously throw away my vote on "human," but I won't cry if people want to be metas.

Secondly, I think we should determine what type of gang it is - what they do.
I also like the idea of a go-gang, though with SR4 disappointing lack of vehicle modifications, we would all have pretty similar rides, and only the mundanes could start with weapon-mounts.

The two major things I look forward to in a campaign like this one are
A) the chance to play a slightly less serious and probably younger "runner"
and B) the chance to be somewhat of a daredevil, because I wouldn't have to worry about it being "unprofessional".

[bladepoet]

I think possibly to begin with what is required is a 'nucleus' of a gang,
some event or reason as to why the gang is formed.

This could be something as simple as some youths in a small area having joined forces to throw out some other gang that was 'overtaxing' the area, or maybe killed one too many citizens.

Possibly this resulted in a fight, a so called 'baptism through fire', between the newly formed gang and the original crew that
had claimed their neighbourhood.
The fight could have been in a safehouse which has now been taken over by the players.

They have to of cource build up their strength to prevent the newly displaced rivals coming back and making
a new takeover bid, or other rival gangs feeling the area is now ripe for pikcing.

The members would already have some base criminal past living in the barrens, and these will now be taught from one
member to the other and done on a larger scale.

cheers

bladepoet

[Guest_MK Ultra_*]

I really like most ideas presented so far! bladepoets sugestion sonds especially cool, since we cold actually play through this after following WinterRat´s methode. I also dont want to subvert TG but WR´s idea sounds much more fun, then going through the hastle of clearing al the specifics first. There are some points, that have to be decided on first, anyway, however.

The Turf: Were should the Gang sit?
I´d propose a low security area (since that seams to be most favoured in this thread so far), C or D, probably even E, but without mayor organized crime operations (since that amounts to similar problems as high sec rating). Off the to of my head, the only area that provides both properties is Redmond, so I think we should pic one of it´s naighborhoods (probably not the most downtroden, deep in the barrens).

The Race: Humans, Metas, Enything?
While I tend to prefer the homogenety of metatype, too, there are many more traits, that can provide homogenity, many of which have allready been posted. Ethnicity, SURGE (though we should restrict this to cosmetical changes), Non-SURGE cosmetical traits like scars or lost teeth or swed off horns (or any one freak-trait like this, but not necesarily the same for all), any selfemposed trait (giving rise to a theme gang), some positive or negative quallity, etc. So if the mayority builds PCs of one Metatype, the gang should probably follow this recrouitment-politic in the future, even though some of the starting members are not of that type. Everything except Metatype can be altered, after initial character creation, but before playstart (selfimposed things even after that). We could even sattle, to built characters and than change the non-fiting pc to resemble the most comon metatype, though this could screw some character concepts. But doing this with Qualities is easyer.

The Focus: What to do?
This is the thing most easyly decided after entering play. Just look, what the group is capable of, this will be thair focus. They won´t be big time, untill all member are capable to, i.e. ride a bike so they are a good gogang, but such is the way of newbes! In time, all characters will rais the skills needed for the gangfocus or suffer the social consequences.

So I think, we should really onls sattle on the area and the general building guidelines, than build characters, than re-consider homogenity and focus, possibly change some stats, than linke the characters up a bit and write bg accordingly. Than finaly start playing as all the pcs have a meet, to talk about the local gang (which should be small or recently weekened*) and go chase them away (or rout them outright, depending on the abilities of the pc´s). After that inicial scenario, the pcs will sit down and discuss the formation of a gang.
*this would allso set a timeframe, so the pcs can´t prepare the hit indefinitly.

Just my .02 :nuyen:

[TinkerGnome]

On the chargen front, I'm backing off lowering the bp total, but I'm considering cutting down the nuyen to bp ratio. I also like the organic gang creation. I'm going to suggest the following:

1. We decide on a geographic location and describe it in fairly good detail. Racial mix and socio-economic attributes being very important.
2. Everyone can make a character concept (or full character if you really feel like it).
3. We select an initiating event. I'm going to throw out the idea that an experienced ganger from one of the larger nearby gangs challenged for leadership and lost. Now he's out of that gang and putting together a small crew of his own. He'll serve as an experienced voice amongst the kiddies. (My intention is that he gets displaced by a PC in time.)
4. We start playing about one month after the gang was founded.

I think MK Ultra's post just above this gives us a nice set of cliff notes on what we need to decide in step 1.

For metatypes, I'm going to suggest that elves be left out and possibly dwarves. The other three races area all present in numbers in economically depressed areas. However, one dwarf might find his way in or something.

Also, everyone keeps talking about subverting me. Don't worry about that. I'm handling the rules side of things early on, but you guys can have a pretty free hand with what you want the gang to look like. Even the process I outline above is just a suggestion.

[bladepoet]

[TinkerGnome]

[bladepoet]

Oh,

I agree. Not nescessarily whitehat ;)

But the balance between a gang and it's neighbourhood is precarious. I remember the gang from ghost in the secrets of power trilogy, who are basically an amerindian urban tribe that looks after their own neighbourhood.

I am not sure you need to be goodie-goodie for that, it may just be possible that the previous gang demanded to much protection or allowed wholesale slaughter.

In any case, I thought I'd add this informational link as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs

I also recommend trying to get your hands on 'Ross Kemp on gangs'. he's a british t.c actor who did a brilliant series on some worldwide gangs, including gangs in Rio, New Zealand (Mongrels) and OC (neonnazi gangs).

Good stuff

cheers

bladepoet

[DireRadiant]

Since TinkerGnome is asking for "Build a Gang, then make PC."

I'll be happy to play along with pretty much anything that gets worked out. The following is my opinion only.

Where is the gang based?

So far it appears that a specific locale is desirable, this provides more plot hooks. Even though there are some interesting theme gangs that don't really need a locale. A locale gives neighbours and a consistent set and scene for the action. Redmond is a common choice, as almost any type of gang can be there. Personally I'd like something a little different, like Auburn or Tacoma. Remember that any specific region can contain a large variation in security and enforcement levels. I also think having some security, a C zone, gives more of a challenge as you also need to consider the gangs relationship to the Law Enforcement in the Locale. Might be fun to have a ganger actually be the son of the local beat cop.

Auburn, centrally located, near enough Redmond, closer to other areas, and then there's always the Mall.

What is the gang's focus?

A nascent go gang (Not necassarily just biker gangs, but maybe street racing, drone racing, robot wars etc) I think allows for the largest variety. A variety of technical skills and support knowledge is required. A diversity in members is essential, mechanics, techs, thieves, faces, physical and active skills. A drug/BTL gang seems to limit the number of skills that would be useful. And rememebr that the go gang is still going to be involved in the drug/btl trade as a source of income. The other advantage in a go gang is the availability of age diversity. While youngsters will be common, it won't be unusual for much older people to be involved.

Go Gang

How big is the gang?

This doesn't matter that much, though if we do the start a gang from scratch, we have less and recruit.

20

What is the racial composition of the gang?

Metarace is a strong theme, but a single race is very limiting for a group. I think having a 2 or three metatype gang is reasonable, even having one that is focused on one or two dominant metatypes, but accepts others. This is certainly a case for a gang that requires diversity in skills, your ability to provide for the complex needs of the gang is more important then race. In fact race may simply be a by product of the originating neighborhood of the gang. Gang starts in a Trog/Tusker neighborhood, then it's mostly trogs and Tuskers, but the gang needs a mechanic or two and everyone knows that halfers make the best mechanics. One idea that could be a little tricky is to have a racial bias against Humans and all other meta types are accepted. Metaracial conflict is good material for dramatic conflict, but even if the gang itself is not into bias overall, there is still plenty of chances for individual members to act biased.

2 or 3 dominant Metatypes with acceptance of others (metatypes to be determined by PC choices)


What is the gang's relationship with the residents of its territory?

Ah, well, I think it should be the usual mix from tolerated dreaded necessity to outright hatred.

Complex

[Silo]

I am in agreement with DireRadiant's comments/ideas on the gang's focus.

Additional comments on race:

How about we pick Troll, Ork, and Dwarf as the dominant races and allow for elves and humans on a minority basis with very well thought out and integrated reasons for them to be in the gang.

It would be up to TG to police the distribution of races to fit that model.

As for location...I am good with whatever. Afterall...I can't pick where I was born.

[bladepoet]

Hmm,

why Ork, Troll, Dwarf?

Would it not make more sense to have the gang constituting mainly Orks and Humans, with a few Trolls and Dwarfs?

After all, Humans and Orks are the most populous races

regards

Bladepoet

[NeonWraith]

Ooh, this sounds fun. Count me in. :D (though granted, despite having had SR4 since it came out I still don't get the character creation rules all that well)

There's a couple of things that'd need deciding upon initially though. Forgetting what the gang looks/acts like for a moment, who are they working for? I always got the impression that in Shadowrun most of the more organised gangs are working for the local organised crime ring, since they provide muscle, a way to get rid of certain hot merchandise, and a good place to dump those 20 crates of Cal Hots that dropped off the back of a flatbed.

If they're working for themselves, then it's probably less about money (though not necessarily) and more about survival & protection. The other question is how common guns are going to be, and what kind of guns.

I'll see what else I can find/think of, but that's all for now.

[Guest_MK Ultra_*]

So, first thing to decide would be the Securitylevel of the hood. For those interested, that don´t have access to sb´s covering them, I´ll summerize the Securitylevels, in which all the hoods in Seattle are rated. Then we can have a simple voting, to se how secure (and star-invested) we like to have it.

The books vary a bit on the definition, but not significantly, I used the SSG & NS.
AAA Luxury
The most secure areas. Privat security patroles in adition to the cops. The Law Enforcement reacts to every minor crime emidiatly. Everything is covered with SOTA sensors, the only gangs that operate here are incorporated security services running thair protection rackets ;)
AA Still Luxury (High according to NS)
Really not much lower then AAA. 24h patrole coverage. People who don´t look like they belong are likly to be stoped. Response is prompt even to minor offenses, but may take a bit longer, then in AAA.
A High (Middle according to NS)
Most of the sprawl (they´d wish), this is for High to Middle Lifestyle. Significantly less patrole coverage, due to lack of personal, but planty of panic-buttons and watchfull naighbors to summon the star.
On this and all above levels the Cops become aware of a problem after the first shot, explosion or call-in. First response after camera or astral survay and drones is a standard patrolle. These Securitylevels are probably all too high for our purpose.
B Middle (mostly business destricts in the better parts of town)
Patroles are spread even thiner, but there is little crime in the area. The responsetime is as fast as in A, but the cops only react emidiatly after there is a call-in and explosion or full-auto-fire. First response after drone or astral survay are two standard patrolle cars.
C Low (residential)
Infrequent patroles and badly maintained panicbuttons. Patty crime is a part of life. The cops don´t realy try to stop crime preemptively and have a bad reception with the general populance because of this. Reactiontime is double that of B, but triggered by the same instance. No survay-drones, first officers on the spot will be a citymaster and two patrolecars with a mage (this is reinforcement in better areas).
D Squatter (Low in NS; mostly business and industral areas)
Crime is common. Responses are the same as C, but no cams and astral mages either.
E Street (Squatter and Street in NS)
No patroles, no affort to prevent crime, only to contain it from spilling over into better hoods. Cops respond only after repeated explosions (canons, rockets and missiles included) or after call-in from a valid citisan (with a SIN). Response takes some time, but will consist of two citymasters with riggers and combat-mages.
Z can´t get lower then Street
This is anarchy and the cops simply don´t care.

While responses on lower levels may seem more powerfull, keep in mind, tht they only arrive after the better hood has seen reinforcement twice (which is similarly powerfull) and wont react to minor offenses (like only shooting once in full-auto). On the other hand, the lower the sec, the less mony the gang can make in the area, allso gangs or the mob can sometimes substitute regular security in those hoods.

[HeySparky]

I vote that our turf be 'D'. No mages. :)

So, the security rating, is that based solely on legal law enforcement?

Because organized crime and gangs could security after a fashion. The Mob supresses street crime and owns the gangs, that sort of thing.

A gang could defend it's turf with all the speed and ferociousness (though not the gear) of good, legal security to the point their neighborhood gets a rep for 'safety'. Safe as long as you don't challenge the gang.

[Thanee]

I also like the idea of a go gang. And I think Trolls should be rare in any case.

As for the sec sector... headquarter in a D zone, neighboring a C zone?

Bye
Thanee

[NeonWraith]

Thing is, security ratings are an indication of how much money has been put into an area...since the more it is, the more likely whoever put the money there in the first place is going to want it looked after by the police.

Other thing is, security ratings don't always mean there wont be any police about. I mean, if a gang starts raiding a bunch of warehouses in a 'B' zone, then the police'll notice sooner or later and be waiting for them. It's just a rough idea of the police presence/how much attention they pay to a given area, and how they distribite their resources.