There's a reason this is only "sort of" a recruitment thread. I'm proposing the running of a SR4 game based around a Seattle street gang. However, such a broad concept is difficult to pin down since I want the players (or potential players, or just interested folks) to have a hand in creating the gang and its environment.
To that end, I've put together a Wiki where we put together things as they come of age. While we have the Wiki, I expect a large amount of discussion to actually occur in this thread. The Wiki is simply a good way to spread out the work of putting it all together.
A short FAQ:
You're using a Wiki to discuss the gang, does this mean you're not running the game on this forum?
No. I'll be running the game in the traditional fashion on this board. The Wiki is simply a powerful tool to use for a group to write a shared story.
Is this game going to be different from other SR games?
It will definitely not be a typical "group goes and gets a run from a Johnson, goes on run, collects pay" type game. For one thing, it'll be much more driven by the players. This is both an empowering and potentially destructive thing as the GM is not the one mainly responsible for the pace of the game. The GM will, of course, be throwing in events (like a rival gang beating up someone, NPCs hassling PCs, etc.) to create situations and combats, but other things will be entirely in the hands of the players to initiate.
I'm here first, does that mean I get to play?
Hold on there, there are going to be some differences between this and a regular game. For one thing, there isn't going to be a hard cap on the number of players. Gangs are larger than shadowrunner teams and the individual gangers are weaker. Thus, it's easier to have ten gangers playing than it would be to have seven shadowrunners. However, the first few days of discussion are likely to set a strong course for the gang, so the earlier you jump in the better.
Can I send you a character?
It's still too early for that. Feel free to take a look at the draft character creation rules on the Wiki (or over in the SR4 forum), but keep in mind that those are draft rules. We'll get to that point eventually.
An Overview of the Gang
The following questions appear on the gang overview page and I'm placing them here to get things started. These are the first things we'll need to tackle, but they aren't the only things.
Where is the gang based?
There are gangs all over Seattle. Anywhere from downtown to the depths of the Barrens. Where this particular gang is located will determine a lot about the ways in which it can behave. The Seattle sourcebooks can be a big help, along with this map.
What is the gang's focus?
Simply staying alive in a Z-Zone, getting rich off BTLs, and defending a neighborhood are all possibilities for the primary focus of a street gang. That doesn't mean that the gang can't delve into other legal and illegal activities, as well, but the main purpose is important.
How big is the gang?
Are there ten members or thirty? Somewhere in between? Too few or too many is a problem.
What is the racial composition of the gang?
Certain gangs are made up of humans. Others are made up of elves or orks or trolls or all three. There are even a few dwarven gangs around. The racial composiiton of the gang is an important question.
What is the gang's relationship with the residents of its territory?
Is the gang on good terms with the local populace, or is it feared? How does the gang treat the regular, law-abiding citizens in its territory?
Full Version: Recruitment (sorta): SR4 Ganger Game
I'm not sure whether you wanted hte discussion to take place here, or by editing the Wiki. o.O
I assume here, for sanity's sake.
I assume here, for sanity's sake.
Both, really. We should probably do most of the talking here and then as decisions are made move it over to the Wiki. I'm using the Wiki so I don't have to be the one to edit every last thing, as I'm sure I'll miss some things and others will get changed after they've initially been settled.
We probably don't need to use the actual discussion feature of the Wiki, using this thread instead.
We probably don't need to use the actual discussion feature of the Wiki, using this thread instead.
Discussion is going to revolve around what kind of gang and focus to play?
Is the gang a bunch of japanese american yakuza biker wannabes, aka Neon Blades.
Local protection troll street gang.
Underground Ork militant black panthers.
Thrill seeking corp teen rigger street racers.
Dwarven technomancer elite AR Shooter competition team.
Elven street mimes (shudder)
Theme gangs
- The Gilligans, Play a character from Gilligans Island
- The Poohs, Play Tigger or Eeyore (Donkey prosthetic is popular...)
Makes me think we need a poll at some point.
Is the gang a bunch of japanese american yakuza biker wannabes, aka Neon Blades.
Local protection troll street gang.
Underground Ork militant black panthers.
Thrill seeking corp teen rigger street racers.
Dwarven technomancer elite AR Shooter competition team.
Elven street mimes (shudder)
Theme gangs
- The Gilligans, Play a character from Gilligans Island
- The Poohs, Play Tigger or Eeyore (Donkey prosthetic is popular...)
Makes me think we need a poll at some point.
As said in the other thread, I would be interested. 
| QUOTE |
| Where is the gang based? |
I'd say one of the less secure regions, where security is sparse to non-existant (not quite a Z-Zone, but only one step up from there (D?)).
| QUOTE |
| What is the gang's focus? |
How about some protection money, maybe some smuggling activity, raids into other territories to steal stuff, and so on.
| QUOTE |
| How big is the gang? |
I think 10 is a little small... 20 sounds like a good number.
| QUOTE |
| What is the racial composition of the gang? |
A mix of all? Not all gangs are based on a certain race.
| QUOTE |
| What is the gang's relationship with the residents of its territory? |
Well... of course the residents don't like to be 'protected' by a gang, but then again, there is little else in terms of security and at least the gangers are good enough to actually do something (or try
), when there is a need for it. There's a bit of respect, but mostly it's just a matter of necessity.Bye
Thanee
I'm not going to make any hard suggestions, but I'm going to suggest the following:
- Base the gang outside the barrens.
- Make the gang relatively small (15-20 members).
- Give the gang a small, well defined territory (about 1-4 city blocks)
- Have more than one racial option (human + two or three others tends to work)
- Make the theme at least somewhat serious.
- Allow for more than one general concept (gogang might be okay, wizgang probably not)
- Extended family gang
- Skinheads
- Chromatic metal gang (like a rock cult, but more violent)
- Self defense gang
- Posergang (specific look)
- Combat gang
- Party gang
- Cultie gang
I would love to play a Dwarven Technomancer ganger, that would be awesome. Especially one who was at the power level you're talking about, as that would end up with a character who was seriously like 11 years old. Short children, does it get any better than that? I hope not.
But on a more constructive note: there are lots of possible theme gangs that don't involve particular TV shows:
- The Pack. Members get dog-related modifications, beginning with cybernetic nose modifications and moving on to full skull replacement.
- The Hawaiians. Members listen to a lot of surf music and wear colorful shirts. Examples are made by killing high-profile targets with poisonous tropical fish.
- The Piggies. Members ride around on Hogs and wear padded pink outfits. Tusks are encouraged, as is dirtiness.
But of course, BTL selling is just good times. That way the gang could have their own crappy street doc who could barely implant SimModules into people so that they could slot their BTLs without getting nanotrodes each time...
-Frank
But on a more constructive note: there are lots of possible theme gangs that don't involve particular TV shows:
- The Pack. Members get dog-related modifications, beginning with cybernetic nose modifications and moving on to full skull replacement.
- The Hawaiians. Members listen to a lot of surf music and wear colorful shirts. Examples are made by killing high-profile targets with poisonous tropical fish.
- The Piggies. Members ride around on Hogs and wear padded pink outfits. Tusks are encouraged, as is dirtiness.
But of course, BTL selling is just good times. That way the gang could have their own crappy street doc who could barely implant SimModules into people so that they could slot their BTLs without getting nanotrodes each time...
-Frank
A few suggestions/thoughts:
Gang Based: Redmond Barrens - There are lots of gangs in the area doing all sorts of different things, so it gives a lot of flexibility in determining what the focus of the gang is, as well as the type. Potential storylines and hooks will be very easy to come by with all the other gangs in the area. Finally, Redmond is diverse enough that it runs from I believe C or even B in some areas down to Z, so again, with the except of the rich/higher-end gang themes, there is a lot of inherent flexibility into what the gang could be created to be.
Gang Focus: Growing and establishing a solid turf. See Gang Size for additional notes. This gives players a hand in the creation of the gang through role-playing . They are literally starting from the ground up, and instead of making the decisions regarding 'in-game' elements such as methods of operation, rituals, initiations, enemies, allies, stance towards residents, etc, in the OOC thread, all those things could be role-played out.
If the game is focused on the ups and downs in the life of a ganger, it seems a reasonable thing to start from the beginning of that life, and through play the characters will grow and evolve from their first baby steps as a ganger into a hardened lifer.
Furthermore, this helps immerse the players in the gang as they create the culture of the gang from the ground up, and creates a more tangible sense of the gang culture as they grow and develop.
One possibility would be to start the game with the players having just recently decided they will form a gang. They could have the basic gang focus, rituals, initiations, etc, but how they go about establishing their turf, recruiting members, etc. could then be some of the early things that are played out.
Gang Size: Small, just starting out, possibly 10-15 members or so, depending on the number of PCs? Again, this gives players the opportunity to grow the gang and develop it through the gang instead of starting with a preestablished base.
Racial Composition: Any, to accomodate the most number of players
Gang's Relationship to residents: Something that could be defined throughout play, especially if they start from the ground up.
Thoughts?
Gang Based: Redmond Barrens - There are lots of gangs in the area doing all sorts of different things, so it gives a lot of flexibility in determining what the focus of the gang is, as well as the type. Potential storylines and hooks will be very easy to come by with all the other gangs in the area. Finally, Redmond is diverse enough that it runs from I believe C or even B in some areas down to Z, so again, with the except of the rich/higher-end gang themes, there is a lot of inherent flexibility into what the gang could be created to be.
Gang Focus: Growing and establishing a solid turf. See Gang Size for additional notes. This gives players a hand in the creation of the gang through role-playing . They are literally starting from the ground up, and instead of making the decisions regarding 'in-game' elements such as methods of operation, rituals, initiations, enemies, allies, stance towards residents, etc, in the OOC thread, all those things could be role-played out.
If the game is focused on the ups and downs in the life of a ganger, it seems a reasonable thing to start from the beginning of that life, and through play the characters will grow and evolve from their first baby steps as a ganger into a hardened lifer.
Furthermore, this helps immerse the players in the gang as they create the culture of the gang from the ground up, and creates a more tangible sense of the gang culture as they grow and develop.
One possibility would be to start the game with the players having just recently decided they will form a gang. They could have the basic gang focus, rituals, initiations, etc, but how they go about establishing their turf, recruiting members, etc. could then be some of the early things that are played out.
Gang Size: Small, just starting out, possibly 10-15 members or so, depending on the number of PCs? Again, this gives players the opportunity to grow the gang and develop it through the gang instead of starting with a preestablished base.
Racial Composition: Any, to accomodate the most number of players
Gang's Relationship to residents: Something that could be defined throughout play, especially if they start from the ground up.
Thoughts?
So what's the basic process?
Build a Gang, players build PC to fit?
Build gangers PC, build a Gang to fit?
Either way is fun and fine with me, but I think at some point you need to be able to say, "Here's the Gang, all PC need to fit this from now on."
Build a Gang, players build PC to fit?
Build gangers PC, build a Gang to fit?
Either way is fun and fine with me, but I think at some point you need to be able to say, "Here's the Gang, all PC need to fit this from now on."
I'm interested TG.
I like the idea of this group founding a gang. Maybe as a splinter of another gang or focused around a strong NPC.
I like the idea of this group founding a gang. Maybe as a splinter of another gang or focused around a strong NPC.
I could be interested in this... indeed
I'm interested, if I have the time.
I'm all for the getting the gang started from the ground up and then just trying to keep the gang a live and running.
I'd like all races to be in the gang. Combat does not need to be the main focus of the gang, but there should be some PCs that don't suck in combat.
Thyme...
I'm all for the getting the gang started from the ground up and then just trying to keep the gang a live and running.
I'd like all races to be in the gang. Combat does not need to be the main focus of the gang, but there should be some PCs that don't suck in combat.
Thyme...
Oooh, I've been waiting to be able to play an online game. I'm interested, but I don't know how to play SR4; I hope that won't be an insurmountable problem.
It's nice to be all-inclusive from a race stand-point (and easier from a meta-game standpoint to get people intersted in playing because they can make anything), but I think playing up racial tensions is an important part of a street-level gang.
That said, if part of the gang's core concept is inclusion, that could work. Though it's awful warm and fuzzy for hard-bitten gansters.
That said, if part of the gang's core concept is inclusion, that could work. Though it's awful warm and fuzzy for hard-bitten gansters.
I would also like to play, but I don't know that much about gangs IRL.
I'll post more of my ideas tomarrow, but one thing I think we should do is try our best to keep the gang open to allowing as many PC race/archtype combinations as possible.
I mean, if we voted to play a troll-only gang, that sorts of nixes half-a-dozen ideas I've already had this morning. plus eats up a lot of valuable build-points.
... course I hate trolls. Wouldn't be adverse to voting in a no-troll gang. Maybe a humanis human-only gang?
I'll post more of my ideas tomarrow, but one thing I think we should do is try our best to keep the gang open to allowing as many PC race/archtype combinations as possible.
I mean, if we voted to play a troll-only gang, that sorts of nixes half-a-dozen ideas I've already had this morning. plus eats up a lot of valuable build-points.
... course I hate trolls.
Wouldn't be adverse to voting in a no-troll gang. Maybe a humanis human-only gang?
Starting scenario: PC are sitting around the 'hood jawing about the latest adventures of Kombat Karl when a tractor trailer combo full of bikes and cars heading for the scrap heap breaks down on the street.
The truck driver can't get the repair truck to come out, and he heads off for lunch around the corner...
Instant neighborhood go/car gang! Hunt for replacement parts to get your street machine fixed! Challenge the rival gangs in the Friday Night Street races! Where do we get nuyen for gas?
The truck driver can't get the repair truck to come out, and he heads off for lunch around the corner...
Instant neighborhood go/car gang! Hunt for replacement parts to get your street machine fixed! Challenge the rival gangs in the Friday Night Street races! Where do we get nuyen for gas?
As most gangs are started by people in their early teens, if we were really playing characters starting a brand new gang rather than aspirants working their way up an established gang - then characters should probably be pretty young. 16 year old characters are old by this measure.
You become an "OG" at age 20, and people who are still gang members at 30 are looked at with pity even by other gang members.
-Frank
You become an "OG" at age 20, and people who are still gang members at 30 are looked at with pity even by other gang members.
-Frank
Damn, I just looked at the chargen rules and realized I know absolutely jack and squat about SR4 chargen. I don't want to ask someone to make my character for me, but I might have to end up doing that...
Anyway, everything I learned about gangs I learned from the urban evening news and manga. And, well, living in cities. And manga clearly knows all about urban crime because Japan is such a dangerous place to live. Manga even trumps living in NYC and New Orleans.
So clearly being in a gang is all about long, sweaty silences in which we stare at each other before beating on each other with improbable martial arts, bokken, and giant chains.
Anyway, everything I learned about gangs I learned from the urban evening news and manga. And, well, living in cities. And manga clearly knows all about urban crime because Japan is such a dangerous place to live. Manga even trumps living in NYC and New Orleans.
So clearly being in a gang is all about long, sweaty silences in which we stare at each other before beating on each other with improbable martial arts, bokken, and giant chains.
I really really think that having a single dominant race is important, but have a couple of ideas for how to get people on board who don't agree.
This is just me spitballing... it's wacky, I know. And most people seem to be leaning towards 'any race' direction, but I'm angling.
First, boost CP to 310.
And add a required negative quality for anyone wanting to be a race outside the dominant race of the group (whatever we decide that is):
Outsider (10): You are not the same race as your gang, but for some reason they have accepted you. There's still tension, but you're part of the group now. For good or ill.
So, basically, if you go along with the pack you have 10 extra BP to spend. I just think a mish-mash of races would be strange and implausible. They're struggling to survive, looking a lot alike is a good way to start IMO.
This is just me spitballing... it's wacky, I know. And most people seem to be leaning towards 'any race' direction, but I'm angling.
First, boost CP to 310.
And add a required negative quality for anyone wanting to be a race outside the dominant race of the group (whatever we decide that is):
Outsider (10): You are not the same race as your gang, but for some reason they have accepted you. There's still tension, but you're part of the group now. For good or ill.
So, basically, if you go along with the pack you have 10 extra BP to spend. I just think a mish-mash of races would be strange and implausible. They're struggling to survive, looking a lot alike is a good way to start IMO.
YES! A ganger game! the most fun time in the SR world. I'd love to play no matter the theme.
Preferred ideas:
Dwarven Chop-shop gang, steals cars, boosts cars, smuggling runs, and makes "special" customizations for "special" customers.
Bunch of young dwarfs naturally in love with cars, boats, bikes, planes, and, of course, drones, get their own garage and startup their own chop-shop gang.
Ork and troll Street Gang "The Enforcers" - protection rackets, BTL selling, the modern "Goblinized Businessman."
Bunch of young orks and trolls decide to carve a name for themselves by taking over their own territory in the barrens.
These would be my favorites, but I'm up for anything.
Also, like to note: GREAT IDEA ES_Sparky, that would be an awesome fix for those that want to play other races.
I love gang vs gang interactions, and also intergang politics. I'm so in, and willing to play anything.
Personally, I dislike any real "racial" motifs, because, well I'm American, I'm fairly dim-witted at Role playing a yakuza gang or the like. But I'm in for ANYTHING!
Preferred ideas:
Dwarven Chop-shop gang, steals cars, boosts cars, smuggling runs, and makes "special" customizations for "special" customers.
Bunch of young dwarfs naturally in love with cars, boats, bikes, planes, and, of course, drones, get their own garage and startup their own chop-shop gang.
Ork and troll Street Gang "The Enforcers" - protection rackets, BTL selling, the modern "Goblinized Businessman."
Bunch of young orks and trolls decide to carve a name for themselves by taking over their own territory in the barrens.
These would be my favorites, but I'm up for anything.
Also, like to note: GREAT IDEA ES_Sparky, that would be an awesome fix for those that want to play other races.
I love gang vs gang interactions, and also intergang politics. I'm so in, and willing to play anything.
Personally, I dislike any real "racial" motifs, because, well I'm American, I'm fairly dim-witted at Role playing a yakuza gang or the like. But I'm in for ANYTHING!
I used to play in the Bleeding Edge gang game that was held here ages ago... Haven't played SR4 yet, so I'd be down for this if you'd be willing to take me on.
I'm definitely interested in this too.
Dunno too much about ideas of my own, but i do really like the idea of starting off pretty much from scratch, trying to establish turf and whatnot. probably a splinter off some gang would be the most workable solution (possibly even a gang from another city forming a branch in seattle).
i would go for a more low security zone than anything, personally, but anything is ok really.
Dunno too much about ideas of my own, but i do really like the idea of starting off pretty much from scratch, trying to establish turf and whatnot. probably a splinter off some gang would be the most workable solution (possibly even a gang from another city forming a branch in seattle).
i would go for a more low security zone than anything, personally, but anything is ok really.
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, everything I learned about gangs I learned from the urban evening news and manga. |
Oh dear. Well, time to throw down some statistics then:
* The median age for joining a gang is 14.
* The average age of all gang members is 16.
* The average age for a first arrest of a gang member is 14.
* The most common arrests during the first 2 years are property offenses (burglary, vandalism, etc.), the most common arrests during the next 2 years are drug-related, and the most common arrests after that are for violent crime.
And some generically horrifying facts:
* The preffered gang initiation to a Bloods-affiliated gang is participation in the "gang-bang" of a local girl. This highly illegal and poorly regarded activity cuts the prospective member off from other perceived avenues of social interaction and binds him more tightly to the gang.
* Gang member drug dealers report approximate 50% higher earnings than do non-affiliated drug dealing youths their own age.
* Attrition rate for gang members is often as high as 8% over a ten-year gang membership.
* 75% of gang members who dealt drugs reported that they would not give up selling drugs for less than $17 per hour.
---
So life as a gangster is:
Nasty.
Venal.
Short.
Profittable.
And a typical gang member is:
Scared.
Confused.
Violent.
Fifteen years old.
-Frank
TG, I could be down for this.
I am sort of in agreement with Sparky too. Being all of the same race simply makes sense. At least limiting the race does.
What about an Elven/Dwarven gang? A bunch of youths that can't make it on their own, are shunned by the richer or more secluded of their races, and aren't allowed in the other more brutal enforcer troll/ork gangs.
I personally would be up for any race combination, but I do think that limited or single is best.
I don't know a ton about the different areas, but it would have to be one that provided flexibility enough to be a gang and not just a full time jail bird or constantly running from the Star.
I like the idea of racing as a past time. I think the purpose should be a healthy mix of survival and fun. If fun is getting wasted at 9am and robbing a store...so be it.
Dealing in drugs is probably the best way to make money. By best, I mean easiest.
I am sort of in agreement with Sparky too. Being all of the same race simply makes sense. At least limiting the race does.
What about an Elven/Dwarven gang? A bunch of youths that can't make it on their own, are shunned by the richer or more secluded of their races, and aren't allowed in the other more brutal enforcer troll/ork gangs.
I personally would be up for any race combination, but I do think that limited or single is best.
I don't know a ton about the different areas, but it would have to be one that provided flexibility enough to be a gang and not just a full time jail bird or constantly running from the Star.
I like the idea of racing as a past time. I think the purpose should be a healthy mix of survival and fun. If fun is getting wasted at 9am and robbing a store...so be it.
Dealing in drugs is probably the best way to make money. By best, I mean easiest.
There's some interesting data on the money side of drug dealing in the book Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything ( an interesting read).
The idea in a capsule is that most street level drug dealers made minimum wage or less, were highly competitive and very likely to end up dead. The only guys making good money were the ones on top, running the show at a high level (the level the street guys were trying to get to). So these kids are risking their lives to make minimum wage.
I have no way of knowing how this maps for gangs across the nation. IIRC this was for a particular gang in Chicago (maybe it was LA) that had one up-and-comer who was keeping detailed books on the drug operation. Who got paid what and how often for what volume. That sort of thing.
Wow... teenagers... young ones. I know I didn't have any 300BP when I was 14.
I also had a random thought that we could build our gangers around a certain positive or negative quality (or one of each that cancel eachother out?) and build a backstory around that. Something that would unify us by mechanics as well as shared history.
Like, say...
Positive Qualities:
-Animal Empathy for The Pack (ala FrankTrollman's suggestion)
-Double-Jointed for the Houdinis (Burglary oriented group)
-Guts for a go-gang
-High Pain Tolerance for the Bleeders (can't pass out when you get beat in)
-Home Ground for any gang. What gang doesn't want this?
-Lucky for a gang with more BPs lying around than they know what to do with
-Quick Healer, Toughness, Will to Live...
There's really not a quality that we couldn't spin into an interesting hook for the gang. And it wouldn't HAVE to be a requirement, but if most folks had it, we'd get a rep for it, and if you didn't... well...
Of course, if that quality is negative, that might be a good thing. These end up sounding really fun and funny, but maybe not what we want.
Negative Qualities:
-Bad Luck for The Losers
-Combat Paralysis for The Twitchers
-Gremlins for The Crash (go gang)
-Incompetent (Firearms) for Richochets, Dodgers or perhaps for their own safety, the Blades
-Incompetent (Groundcraft) for The Crash (go gang)
-Spirit Bane (Spirits of Man) for the Ancestors (irony)
Anyway... just spinning thoughts.
PS - I'll help out anyone that needs it for SR4 chargen, though I may need help with that if there are a bunch.
The idea in a capsule is that most street level drug dealers made minimum wage or less, were highly competitive and very likely to end up dead. The only guys making good money were the ones on top, running the show at a high level (the level the street guys were trying to get to). So these kids are risking their lives to make minimum wage.
I have no way of knowing how this maps for gangs across the nation. IIRC this was for a particular gang in Chicago (maybe it was LA) that had one up-and-comer who was keeping detailed books on the drug operation. Who got paid what and how often for what volume. That sort of thing.
Wow... teenagers... young ones. I know I didn't have any 300BP when I was 14.
I also had a random thought that we could build our gangers around a certain positive or negative quality (or one of each that cancel eachother out?) and build a backstory around that. Something that would unify us by mechanics as well as shared history.
Like, say...
Positive Qualities:
-Animal Empathy for The Pack (ala FrankTrollman's suggestion)
-Double-Jointed for the Houdinis (Burglary oriented group)
-Guts for a go-gang
-High Pain Tolerance for the Bleeders (can't pass out when you get beat in)
-Home Ground for any gang. What gang doesn't want this?
-Lucky for a gang with more BPs lying around than they know what to do with
-Quick Healer, Toughness, Will to Live...
There's really not a quality that we couldn't spin into an interesting hook for the gang. And it wouldn't HAVE to be a requirement, but if most folks had it, we'd get a rep for it, and if you didn't... well...
Of course, if that quality is negative, that might be a good thing. These end up sounding really fun and funny, but maybe not what we want.
Negative Qualities:
-Bad Luck for The Losers
-Combat Paralysis for The Twitchers
-Gremlins for The Crash (go gang)
-Incompetent (Firearms) for Richochets, Dodgers or perhaps for their own safety, the Blades
-Incompetent (Groundcraft) for The Crash (go gang)
-Spirit Bane (Spirits of Man) for the Ancestors (irony)
Anyway... just spinning thoughts.
PS - I'll help out anyone that needs it for SR4 chargen, though I may need help with that if there are a bunch.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
Oh dear. Well, time to throw down some statistics then: * The median age for joining a gang is 14. * The average age of all gang members is 16. * The average age for a first arrest of a gang member is 14. * The most common arrests during the first 2 years are property offenses (burglary, vandalism, etc.), the most common arrests during the next 2 years are drug-related, and the most common arrests after that are for violent crime. And some generically horrifying facts: * The preffered gang initiation to a Bloods-affiliated gang is participation in the "gang-bang" of a local girl. This highly illegal and poorly regarded activity cuts the prospective member off from other perceived avenues of social interaction and binds him more tightly to the gang. * Gang member drug dealers report approximate 50% higher earnings than do non-affiliated drug dealing youths their own age. * Attrition rate for gang members is often as high as 8% over a ten-year gang membership. * 75% of gang members who dealt drugs reported that they would not give up selling drugs for less than $17 per hour. --- So life as a gangster is: Nasty. Venal. Short. Profittable. And a typical gang member is: Scared. Confused. Violent. Fifteen years old. -Frank |
Thanks for the info. It was actually quite fascinating.
I never knew that the term "gangbang" originated from actual gangs and street crime. I thought that it was just the province of pornography.
I could've sworn that a lot of gang members were in their 20's or 30's...I sincerely doubt there are many teenage Hell's Angels or Satan's Choice members at all.
| QUOTE (Dale) |
| I could've sworn that a lot of gang members were in their 20's or 30's...I sincerely doubt there are many teenage Hell's Angels or Satan's Choice members at all. |
They also aren't street gangs, nor are they beginning gangs. Biker gangs form from, well, bikers - who are by definition old enough to drive. The Hell's Angels in particular are mostly old men, and the guys down the street from me are between 20 and 40. But there are still new biker gangs springing up from time to time, and their average age is about 20. When the 'Angels were founded, they were formed from discharged servicemen whose average age was in their early 20s.
If we wanted to work up a beginner Go Gang, the starting age would probably be 14-18, since the driving age in the '70s Sprawl is so much lower than it is in '06.
If we were going to be a beginning syndicate ring our average ages would probably be even higher - probably we'd be transplants from somewhere else and have already completed some sort of apprenticeship - putting a starting age at like 18-22.
---
Oh, and if there is enough need, I would also help people make characters.
-Frank
I'm still working out the specifics of character generation over here in the SR4 forum. Feel free to jump in there. I'm considering cutting down the bp even more (to 250 or 275) to give us fairly green gangers. I'm also considering making awakened (including technomancer) cost more since mages should really be less common among the downtrodden (these are the folks who can easily climb out of poverty if they have the will).
Before you lynch me for the low BP totals, I'm intending to hand out karma at a fairly rapid rate. A minimum of 1 karma per week of real time if you're posting. The advancement will be quick, but to me this would be more natural and, overall, better than starting out strong.
I think the demographics of gangs will have shifted a fair bit by 2070. In modern day, the cultures of poverty which most often lead to gang affiliation are not as widespread as those in 2070, nor is society as intolerant of the lower classes. One of the truths of the US in the modern age is that there is a large amount of social mobility where the poorest people often move up to middle or even upper class over their lives. In 2070, I don't think you see anywhere near that level of mobility. The poor stay poor and the rich stay rich.
The ages and the like are probably going to be a bit different, though I like the idea of young gangers. I like the idea of having a few older NPC gangers around in the beginning and, over time, having the PCs come into those roles.
Before you lynch me for the low BP totals, I'm intending to hand out karma at a fairly rapid rate. A minimum of 1 karma per week of real time if you're posting. The advancement will be quick, but to me this would be more natural and, overall, better than starting out strong.
I think the demographics of gangs will have shifted a fair bit by 2070. In modern day, the cultures of poverty which most often lead to gang affiliation are not as widespread as those in 2070, nor is society as intolerant of the lower classes. One of the truths of the US in the modern age is that there is a large amount of social mobility where the poorest people often move up to middle or even upper class over their lives. In 2070, I don't think you see anywhere near that level of mobility. The poor stay poor and the rich stay rich.
The ages and the like are probably going to be a bit different, though I like the idea of young gangers. I like the idea of having a few older NPC gangers around in the beginning and, over time, having the PCs come into those roles.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| Build a Gang, players build PC to fit? |
This is the method we're using.
I'm literally open to anything. What we'll do over the next few days is hear everyone's suggestions and discuss. When that's done, we'll collect the suggestions into a list and make a poll out of it. After a bit more discussion and voting, we'll move forward with the winning concept.
This sounds entertaining, if a tad crazy in setup to me - but hey, how often would i get an opportunity to play a too-young runner/ganger? I could have some fun with that, heheh...
obviously, getting gear is going to be a little less typical with some gangs. If cops/Lonestar are keeping an eye on you, that makes 'acquiring' more risky with being busted.
And then there's cyberware you DO have that's obvious, and getting labeled with it through the gang.
"Oh yeah, there's some crazy guy with these big scissor fingers in <soandso> gang! They sometimes go to the 80's diner. Freaks...."
Or something like that, lol.
obviously, getting gear is going to be a little less typical with some gangs. If cops/Lonestar are keeping an eye on you, that makes 'acquiring' more risky with being busted.
And then there's cyberware you DO have that's obvious, and getting labeled with it through the gang.
"Oh yeah, there's some crazy guy with these big scissor fingers in <soandso> gang! They sometimes go to the 80's diner. Freaks...."
Or something like that, lol.
A few more thoughts/suggestions:
Re Race: I agree with ES Sparky that many gangs are often of homogenous races, and in general, that is a common trend in both the real world and SR.
However, I would point out this is where all the elements of a gang are interconnected.
For example, say the gang is starting in Redmond. We have canon material (Sprawl Sites) that states a large percentage of race oriented gangs. However, other factors such as size and status matter considerably.
Say the gang in question is one just starting out, maybe a block or two of turf they aspire to, because the current powers that be are just too much for the would be gangers to deal with. In that situation, it's highly likely they'd take who they could get. A gang just starting out in a highly competitive environment is less likely to be picky about its members than in a less gang dense area, if only because they need to recruit, because if they don't take X, someone else will. Surrounding circumstances can influence things considerably.
Also, the focus of the gang makes a big difference. Say the focus of the gang is money. Taking the most efficient route to money is the goal. In that case, some members may not like trolls, but who better to run the enforcement rackets? Conversely, elf and human females are more likely to be desired by the general populace than say troll females. Diversity goes from being a weakness to strength.
So allowing all races can make sense without a 'hey, we love everyone, let's all be friends' fuzzy mentality. Racial tensions can be present, and even role-played. In fact, it provides ample opportunity for what is a trusim in gangs. Frank Trollman knows a lot about gangs, so I won't bother repeating or adding to his stats, but suffice to say that there is a lot of fear and uncertainty in any gang. You never know who might sell you out to the cops, or stab you in the back to make the big time, or just flat out can't be trusted for any number of reasons. The tension of not necessarily liking the people you gang with doesn't remove the need to at least have a good working relationship. Still, in the end, efficiency and effectiveness can often have a powerful effect on people’s prejudices.
Re Age: Again, this could actually vary considerably due to the metahuman age differences. Is it possible to have all the characters (perhaps of different races) be the same age? Yes, but remember that an ork or troll at 14 is far more physically mature than a human of the same age. There's actually a good chance that you'd have younger orks and trolls with older humans, elves and dwarves. So age could potentially be more variable than it would be in a real life setting.
Gang creation: It was asked earlier if we would form the gang first, then have all players create PCs to fit the gang, or vice versa. Given the broad diversity of ideas, and the premise that everyone seems reasonably open to the 'gang from scratch idea' (at least, I haven't heard anyone openly speak against it) I have a suggestion.
Allow everyone who is interested to created a ganger character using only TG's creation rules thus far. Leave out gang-specific aspects of the background, and focus on the character prior to joining the gang.
Next, tie the characters lives together. Work with other players to create links that would conceivably tie the characters together. As long as everyone is tied to at least one other person in a reasonable fashion (preferably more), this would work.
Then, all that is really needed is one solid reason to form the gang, and that’s about it. The rest could conceivably be developed during play.
A real world example: In 1969 the Crips were founded out in L.A. (I won’t provide details, they’re easy enough to look up) and rapidly became one of the largest, if not the largest gang in the LA area. Obviously, sheer numbers were a significant advantage, and to make a long story short, in approximately 1972 the Bloods were formed to combat the Crip numerical supremacy. To give you an idea, when the Bloods were first formed, they were outnumber approximately 10 to 1. That’s after the alliance, I might add. Can you imagine the ratio of Crips to individual gangs before? It is clear that one reason, if strong enough, can really be all a gang needs to set aside their differences.
Admittedly, both the Bloods and the Crips were predominantly African-American, but the groups that formed the Bloods were diverse enough to be ‘outside the homogenous norm’ with respects to their similarities.
Essentially, a common threat was sufficient reason to ignore their differences and focus on what tied them together.
Within the context of gang creation for SR, if all the characters are tied together in some way, shape, or form, given the prevalence of gangs in Redmond, forming a gang simply in response to all the other gangs out there for mutual benefit and protection could logically be reason enough.
I doubt that most gang leaders sat down and drew up a list of rules, rituals, procedures, policies, goals, etc. before starting anything. Most gangs form their culture over time. As they grow and develop, their culture will form itself.
Similarly, if we are starting from scratch, as the more charismatic leader types rise to the top, and the gang conducts its operations, the gang will gradually take shape.
Attempting to lay out all the guidelines and details of the gang before even getting started could be time consuming at best, ultimately counter-productive at worst, as it is clear we all have different ideas and visions of what directions to go with a gang.
Playing through the development of the gang would make the process much easier. Say some of the gangers want to race, and in their first race, they total the main vehicle, which may move the gang away from racing into another direction. Or the gang may end up stealing lots of cars to get parts in order to repair the wrecked one. Then we have a chop shop and racing gang. Or maybe some members go one way, and others go the other way. Now the gang has diversified itself, which opens the door for new types of members to recruit and story hooks to move towards
The point is, it is the game itself that shapes the gang, and not us all sitting around debating, which, knowing the Dumpshock people, could go on for quite some time. If we focus on the people behind the gang and play through the events that develop the gang truly from scratch, it will at least ensure we all have the freedom to attempt to influence the development of the gang towards what we’d like it to be. And hopefully, even the process of doing so will provide fun, gaming, and hopefully a great story, instead of writing an instruction manual for “SR Gang Number 393818190”.
This is long enough, so I’ll pause and ask for some thoughts. Fire away.
Re Race: I agree with ES Sparky that many gangs are often of homogenous races, and in general, that is a common trend in both the real world and SR.
However, I would point out this is where all the elements of a gang are interconnected.
For example, say the gang is starting in Redmond. We have canon material (Sprawl Sites) that states a large percentage of race oriented gangs. However, other factors such as size and status matter considerably.
Say the gang in question is one just starting out, maybe a block or two of turf they aspire to, because the current powers that be are just too much for the would be gangers to deal with. In that situation, it's highly likely they'd take who they could get. A gang just starting out in a highly competitive environment is less likely to be picky about its members than in a less gang dense area, if only because they need to recruit, because if they don't take X, someone else will. Surrounding circumstances can influence things considerably.
Also, the focus of the gang makes a big difference. Say the focus of the gang is money. Taking the most efficient route to money is the goal. In that case, some members may not like trolls, but who better to run the enforcement rackets? Conversely, elf and human females are more likely to be desired by the general populace than say troll females. Diversity goes from being a weakness to strength.
So allowing all races can make sense without a 'hey, we love everyone, let's all be friends' fuzzy mentality. Racial tensions can be present, and even role-played. In fact, it provides ample opportunity for what is a trusim in gangs. Frank Trollman knows a lot about gangs, so I won't bother repeating or adding to his stats, but suffice to say that there is a lot of fear and uncertainty in any gang. You never know who might sell you out to the cops, or stab you in the back to make the big time, or just flat out can't be trusted for any number of reasons. The tension of not necessarily liking the people you gang with doesn't remove the need to at least have a good working relationship. Still, in the end, efficiency and effectiveness can often have a powerful effect on people’s prejudices.
Re Age: Again, this could actually vary considerably due to the metahuman age differences. Is it possible to have all the characters (perhaps of different races) be the same age? Yes, but remember that an ork or troll at 14 is far more physically mature than a human of the same age. There's actually a good chance that you'd have younger orks and trolls with older humans, elves and dwarves. So age could potentially be more variable than it would be in a real life setting.
Gang creation: It was asked earlier if we would form the gang first, then have all players create PCs to fit the gang, or vice versa. Given the broad diversity of ideas, and the premise that everyone seems reasonably open to the 'gang from scratch idea' (at least, I haven't heard anyone openly speak against it) I have a suggestion.
Allow everyone who is interested to created a ganger character using only TG's creation rules thus far. Leave out gang-specific aspects of the background, and focus on the character prior to joining the gang.
Next, tie the characters lives together. Work with other players to create links that would conceivably tie the characters together. As long as everyone is tied to at least one other person in a reasonable fashion (preferably more), this would work.
Then, all that is really needed is one solid reason to form the gang, and that’s about it. The rest could conceivably be developed during play.
A real world example: In 1969 the Crips were founded out in L.A. (I won’t provide details, they’re easy enough to look up) and rapidly became one of the largest, if not the largest gang in the LA area. Obviously, sheer numbers were a significant advantage, and to make a long story short, in approximately 1972 the Bloods were formed to combat the Crip numerical supremacy. To give you an idea, when the Bloods were first formed, they were outnumber approximately 10 to 1. That’s after the alliance, I might add. Can you imagine the ratio of Crips to individual gangs before? It is clear that one reason, if strong enough, can really be all a gang needs to set aside their differences.
Admittedly, both the Bloods and the Crips were predominantly African-American, but the groups that formed the Bloods were diverse enough to be ‘outside the homogenous norm’ with respects to their similarities.
Essentially, a common threat was sufficient reason to ignore their differences and focus on what tied them together.
Within the context of gang creation for SR, if all the characters are tied together in some way, shape, or form, given the prevalence of gangs in Redmond, forming a gang simply in response to all the other gangs out there for mutual benefit and protection could logically be reason enough.
I doubt that most gang leaders sat down and drew up a list of rules, rituals, procedures, policies, goals, etc. before starting anything. Most gangs form their culture over time. As they grow and develop, their culture will form itself.
Similarly, if we are starting from scratch, as the more charismatic leader types rise to the top, and the gang conducts its operations, the gang will gradually take shape.
Attempting to lay out all the guidelines and details of the gang before even getting started could be time consuming at best, ultimately counter-productive at worst, as it is clear we all have different ideas and visions of what directions to go with a gang.
Playing through the development of the gang would make the process much easier. Say some of the gangers want to race, and in their first race, they total the main vehicle, which may move the gang away from racing into another direction. Or the gang may end up stealing lots of cars to get parts in order to repair the wrecked one. Then we have a chop shop and racing gang. Or maybe some members go one way, and others go the other way. Now the gang has diversified itself, which opens the door for new types of members to recruit and story hooks to move towards
The point is, it is the game itself that shapes the gang, and not us all sitting around debating, which, knowing the Dumpshock people, could go on for quite some time.
If we focus on the people behind the gang and play through the events that develop the gang truly from scratch, it will at least ensure we all have the freedom to attempt to influence the development of the gang towards what we’d like it to be. And hopefully, even the process of doing so will provide fun, gaming, and hopefully a great story, instead of writing an instruction manual for “SR Gang Number 393818190”. This is long enough, so I’ll pause and ask for some thoughts. Fire away.
| QUOTE | ||
(Tinkergnome) This is the method we're using. |
It appears my reply took a bit too long to type. Apologies, TG, if I suggested something that may appear to undermine your authority. At the time I was writing the reply, I hadn't yet seen you step in with a definitive reply on the process of gang creation.
My point was simply we should not be bogged down in hashing out every little detail, focusing on the critical issues and letting the rest be worked out through play. Of course, holding a vote would certainly take care of that as well.
...Maybe we should appoint you as Tinker's assistant? lol!
Still, nice detail and thoroughness, so in all seriousness I give you thumbs up and an actual lil' mark for doing so well.
and don't worry about missing things - I came in late, so technically I missed it without being there.
Still, nice detail and thoroughness, so in all seriousness I give you thumbs up and an actual lil' mark for doing so well.
and don't worry about missing things - I came in late, so technically I missed it without being there.
Let me go on record as saying I think Winterat's organic gang construction idea is genius.
I think it will be hard to pull off with so many people involved, but totally worth it. The biggest thing to me would be that we need to make sure we all instersect (geographically/socially/emotionally) in some important way around the formation of the gang. And what that circumstance is and where it generally occurs would be a good place to bat around ideas.
(I still think we should try to be relatively homogenous by race for a number of reasons, but I'm certainly not going to die on that hill. The ultimate goal of that is a sort of unity and group think (good and bad sense) that that sort of fundamental homogeneity would foster)
I think it will be hard to pull off with so many people involved, but totally worth it. The biggest thing to me would be that we need to make sure we all instersect (geographically/socially/emotionally) in some important way around the formation of the gang. And what that circumstance is and where it generally occurs would be a good place to bat around ideas.
(I still think we should try to be relatively homogenous by race for a number of reasons, but I'm certainly not going to die on that hill. The ultimate goal of that is a sort of unity and group think (good and bad sense) that that sort of fundamental homogeneity would foster)
I can now see, why WinterRat felt it necessary to mention in the LitS thread, that he won't abandon his work there...
Good stuff!
I also like the idea of 'creating' the gang in play, but I do think we should find some sort of foundation prior to that, otherwise we might never get anywhere.
I wouldn't mind turning the gang into a go-gang, that offers some neat possibilities, since they are more mobile and would get up a bit from that kiddie-gangstah-style.
Bye
Thanee
Good stuff!
I also like the idea of 'creating' the gang in play, but I do think we should find some sort of foundation prior to that, otherwise we might never get anywhere.
I wouldn't mind turning the gang into a go-gang, that offers some neat possibilities, since they are more mobile and would get up a bit from that kiddie-gangstah-style.
Bye
Thanee
While I still think that a racially homogenous gang would really limit the sorts of characters people could play, or might want to play, it seems that the majority of people here like that idea... so one important step might be to just take a quick vote on what the race would be.
I will obviously throw away my vote on "human," but I won't cry if people want to be metas.
Secondly, I think we should determine what type of gang it is - what they do.
I also like the idea of a go-gang, though with SR4 disappointing lack of vehicle modifications, we would all have pretty similar rides, and only the mundanes could start with weapon-mounts.
The two major things I look forward to in a campaign like this one are
A) the chance to play a slightly less serious and probably younger "runner"
and B) the chance to be somewhat of a daredevil, because I wouldn't have to worry about it being "unprofessional".
I will obviously throw away my vote on "human," but I won't cry if people want to be metas.
Secondly, I think we should determine what type of gang it is - what they do.
I also like the idea of a go-gang, though with SR4 disappointing lack of vehicle modifications, we would all have pretty similar rides, and only the mundanes could start with weapon-mounts.
The two major things I look forward to in a campaign like this one are
A) the chance to play a slightly less serious and probably younger "runner"
and B) the chance to be somewhat of a daredevil, because I wouldn't have to worry about it being "unprofessional".
I think possibly to begin with what is required is a 'nucleus' of a gang,
some event or reason as to why the gang is formed.
This could be something as simple as some youths in a small area having joined forces to throw out some other gang that was 'overtaxing' the area, or maybe killed one too many citizens.
Possibly this resulted in a fight, a so called 'baptism through fire', between the newly formed gang and the original crew that
had claimed their neighbourhood.
The fight could have been in a safehouse which has now been taken over by the players.
They have to of cource build up their strength to prevent the newly displaced rivals coming back and making
a new takeover bid, or other rival gangs feeling the area is now ripe for pikcing.
The members would already have some base criminal past living in the barrens, and these will now be taught from one
member to the other and done on a larger scale.
cheers
bladepoet
some event or reason as to why the gang is formed.
This could be something as simple as some youths in a small area having joined forces to throw out some other gang that was 'overtaxing' the area, or maybe killed one too many citizens.
Possibly this resulted in a fight, a so called 'baptism through fire', between the newly formed gang and the original crew that
had claimed their neighbourhood.
The fight could have been in a safehouse which has now been taken over by the players.
They have to of cource build up their strength to prevent the newly displaced rivals coming back and making
a new takeover bid, or other rival gangs feeling the area is now ripe for pikcing.
The members would already have some base criminal past living in the barrens, and these will now be taught from one
member to the other and done on a larger scale.
cheers
bladepoet
I really like most ideas presented so far! bladepoets sugestion sonds especially cool, since we cold actually play through this after following WinterRat´s methode. I also dont want to subvert TG but WR´s idea sounds much more fun, then going through the hastle of clearing al the specifics first. There are some points, that have to be decided on first, anyway, however.
The Turf: Were should the Gang sit?
I´d propose a low security area (since that seams to be most favoured in this thread so far), C or D, probably even E, but without mayor organized crime operations (since that amounts to similar problems as high sec rating). Off the to of my head, the only area that provides both properties is Redmond, so I think we should pic one of it´s naighborhoods (probably not the most downtroden, deep in the barrens).
The Race: Humans, Metas, Enything?
While I tend to prefer the homogenety of metatype, too, there are many more traits, that can provide homogenity, many of which have allready been posted. Ethnicity, SURGE (though we should restrict this to cosmetical changes), Non-SURGE cosmetical traits like scars or lost teeth or swed off horns (or any one freak-trait like this, but not necesarily the same for all), any selfemposed trait (giving rise to a theme gang), some positive or negative quallity, etc. So if the mayority builds PCs of one Metatype, the gang should probably follow this recrouitment-politic in the future, even though some of the starting members are not of that type. Everything except Metatype can be altered, after initial character creation, but before playstart (selfimposed things even after that). We could even sattle, to built characters and than change the non-fiting pc to resemble the most comon metatype, though this could screw some character concepts. But doing this with Qualities is easyer.
The Focus: What to do?
This is the thing most easyly decided after entering play. Just look, what the group is capable of, this will be thair focus. They won´t be big time, untill all member are capable to, i.e. ride a bike so they are a good gogang, but such is the way of newbes! In time, all characters will rais the skills needed for the gangfocus or suffer the social consequences.
So I think, we should really onls sattle on the area and the general building guidelines, than build characters, than re-consider homogenity and focus, possibly change some stats, than linke the characters up a bit and write bg accordingly. Than finaly start playing as all the pcs have a meet, to talk about the local gang (which should be small or recently weekened*) and go chase them away (or rout them outright, depending on the abilities of the pc´s). After that inicial scenario, the pcs will sit down and discuss the formation of a gang.
*this would allso set a timeframe, so the pcs can´t prepare the hit indefinitly.
Just my .02
The Turf: Were should the Gang sit?
I´d propose a low security area (since that seams to be most favoured in this thread so far), C or D, probably even E, but without mayor organized crime operations (since that amounts to similar problems as high sec rating). Off the to of my head, the only area that provides both properties is Redmond, so I think we should pic one of it´s naighborhoods (probably not the most downtroden, deep in the barrens).
The Race: Humans, Metas, Enything?
While I tend to prefer the homogenety of metatype, too, there are many more traits, that can provide homogenity, many of which have allready been posted. Ethnicity, SURGE (though we should restrict this to cosmetical changes), Non-SURGE cosmetical traits like scars or lost teeth or swed off horns (or any one freak-trait like this, but not necesarily the same for all), any selfemposed trait (giving rise to a theme gang), some positive or negative quallity, etc. So if the mayority builds PCs of one Metatype, the gang should probably follow this recrouitment-politic in the future, even though some of the starting members are not of that type. Everything except Metatype can be altered, after initial character creation, but before playstart (selfimposed things even after that). We could even sattle, to built characters and than change the non-fiting pc to resemble the most comon metatype, though this could screw some character concepts. But doing this with Qualities is easyer.
The Focus: What to do?
This is the thing most easyly decided after entering play. Just look, what the group is capable of, this will be thair focus. They won´t be big time, untill all member are capable to, i.e. ride a bike so they are a good gogang, but such is the way of newbes! In time, all characters will rais the skills needed for the gangfocus or suffer the social consequences.
So I think, we should really onls sattle on the area and the general building guidelines, than build characters, than re-consider homogenity and focus, possibly change some stats, than linke the characters up a bit and write bg accordingly. Than finaly start playing as all the pcs have a meet, to talk about the local gang (which should be small or recently weekened*) and go chase them away (or rout them outright, depending on the abilities of the pc´s). After that inicial scenario, the pcs will sit down and discuss the formation of a gang.
*this would allso set a timeframe, so the pcs can´t prepare the hit indefinitly.
Just my .02
On the chargen front, I'm backing off lowering the bp total, but I'm considering cutting down the nuyen to bp ratio. I also like the organic gang creation. I'm going to suggest the following:
I think MK Ultra's post just above this gives us a nice set of cliff notes on what we need to decide in step 1.
For metatypes, I'm going to suggest that elves be left out and possibly dwarves. The other three races area all present in numbers in economically depressed areas. However, one dwarf might find his way in or something.
Also, everyone keeps talking about subverting me. Don't worry about that. I'm handling the rules side of things early on, but you guys can have a pretty free hand with what you want the gang to look like. Even the process I outline above is just a suggestion.
- We decide on a geographic location and describe it in fairly good detail. Racial mix and socio-economic attributes being very important.
- Everyone can make a character concept (or full character if you really feel like it).
- We select an initiating event. I'm going to throw out the idea that an experienced ganger from one of the larger nearby gangs challenged for leadership and lost. Now he's out of that gang and putting together a small crew of his own. He'll serve as an experienced voice amongst the kiddies. (My intention is that he gets displaced by a PC in time.)
- We start playing about one month after the gang was founded.
I think MK Ultra's post just above this gives us a nice set of cliff notes on what we need to decide in step 1.
For metatypes, I'm going to suggest that elves be left out and possibly dwarves. The other three races area all present in numbers in economically depressed areas. However, one dwarf might find his way in or something.
Also, everyone keeps talking about subverting me. Don't worry about that. I'm handling the rules side of things early on, but you guys can have a pretty free hand with what you want the gang to look like. Even the process I outline above is just a suggestion.
| QUOTE |
I'm going to throw out the idea that an experienced ganger from one of the larger nearby gangs challenged for leadership and lost. |
How about an older, ex-ganger that moves back into his neighborhood and starts a new gang to clean the neighborhood up.
Or something like in City of God ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317248/ ) where one ex-army sniper joins a gang after his fiancee was killed by a rival gang.
I am suggesting something like this to give the gang more of a positive spin, i.e. doing something for their neighbourhood as the powers-that-be fail to provide proper support and protection.
cheers
bladepoet
| QUOTE (bladepoet) |
| How about an older, ex-ganger that moves back into his neighborhood and starts a new gang to clean the neighborhood up. |
I like the idea, but I'm not going to push for a white hat gang. That'll have to be something that the players decide on (or not).
Oh, I mentioned some sample gangs from CP2020. Here's the text from the back of the book:
| QUOTE (CP2020) |
| There's a fire on the Street, engulfing your neighborhood. Fueled by cheap designer drugs, cheap cyberwear, and cheaper automatic weapons, the fire of gangsterism once again threatens to annihilate Night City. In the past two weeks, random shootings have escalated by fifty percent; yesterday, two innocent bystanders were gunned down in a hail of weapon fire as they walked down to the corner FoodMart. Their crime: walking through a section of Crazy Chicken turf during a gang dispute. Gangs. They're your neighbors. They're your kids. You need to know these guys and be ready for them. Because in Night City, no street is safe: Bradi Bunch: The Bunch is an extended family gang which protects runaway children. A few older ''adults'' run the gang and protective turf , while the younger members steal, and deal for family support. Extended families are territorial and fiercely protective of their members. Red Chrome Legion: The Legion is a skinhead gang; young males united around a certain hate group ideology. Uniforms, flags and militaristic slogans are the rule. The Red Chromers will attack anything that they think isn't ''right'' (read: just like them). Steel Slaughter Slammers: A typical chromatic metal gang. Chromer gangs like centering activities around their favorite rock bands, interpreting song lyrics as orders from their heroes. Chromatic rock gangs are into totally sense-less, random acts of violence as a means of expression. The Gilligans: The Gilligans are a typical self defense gang: in this case, militant gays who are tired of being attacked by groups like the Red Chrome Legion. They are relatively peaceful, as long as you stay off their turf (the Marina district), and leave them alone. The Kennedys: The Kennedys are a typical posergang. Posers adopt the clone look for protection (one Kennedy looks just like an- other), identification and impact (twenty JFKS are a pretty scary sight). These gangs center on recreating their own bizarre interpretations of their heroes; for example, the Kennedy's Hyannisport Weekends, where all four hundred members descend on a location for a week- long orgy of destruction. Metal Warriors: The Metal Warriors are a combat gang with their activities centering around a type of ''warrior's code". Elaborate combat rituals, ranks, and body armor are all part of the mystique. Combat gangs are dangerous, because once they declare a war on someone they never give up. Piranhas: The Piranhas are a typical party gang. They party, drink Smash, take (and deal drugs), and mug people. All as part of a ''just because'' lifestyle. To these guys, the Party is everything. Inquisitors: The Inquisitors are a cultic gang; like the hate gangs, they center on a specific ideology, in this case, religious. The Inquisitors think cyberwear is blasphemous, and think notions of tearing it right out of your body. They consider this ''saving'' your soul. |
Oh,
I agree. Not nescessarily whitehat
But the balance between a gang and it's neighbourhood is precarious. I remember the gang from ghost in the secrets of power trilogy, who are basically an amerindian urban tribe that looks after their own neighbourhood.
I am not sure you need to be goodie-goodie for that, it may just be possible that the previous gang demanded to much protection or allowed wholesale slaughter.
In any case, I thought I'd add this informational link as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs
I also recommend trying to get your hands on 'Ross Kemp on gangs'. he's a british t.c actor who did a brilliant series on some worldwide gangs, including gangs in Rio, New Zealand (Mongrels) and OC (neonnazi gangs).
Good stuff
cheers
bladepoet
I agree. Not nescessarily whitehat
But the balance between a gang and it's neighbourhood is precarious. I remember the gang from ghost in the secrets of power trilogy, who are basically an amerindian urban tribe that looks after their own neighbourhood.
I am not sure you need to be goodie-goodie for that, it may just be possible that the previous gang demanded to much protection or allowed wholesale slaughter.
In any case, I thought I'd add this informational link as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs
I also recommend trying to get your hands on 'Ross Kemp on gangs'. he's a british t.c actor who did a brilliant series on some worldwide gangs, including gangs in Rio, New Zealand (Mongrels) and OC (neonnazi gangs).
Good stuff
cheers
bladepoet
Since TinkerGnome is asking for "Build a Gang, then make PC."
I'll be happy to play along with pretty much anything that gets worked out. The following is my opinion only.
Where is the gang based?
So far it appears that a specific locale is desirable, this provides more plot hooks. Even though there are some interesting theme gangs that don't really need a locale. A locale gives neighbours and a consistent set and scene for the action. Redmond is a common choice, as almost any type of gang can be there. Personally I'd like something a little different, like Auburn or Tacoma. Remember that any specific region can contain a large variation in security and enforcement levels. I also think having some security, a C zone, gives more of a challenge as you also need to consider the gangs relationship to the Law Enforcement in the Locale. Might be fun to have a ganger actually be the son of the local beat cop.
Auburn, centrally located, near enough Redmond, closer to other areas, and then there's always the Mall.
What is the gang's focus?
A nascent go gang (Not necassarily just biker gangs, but maybe street racing, drone racing, robot wars etc) I think allows for the largest variety. A variety of technical skills and support knowledge is required. A diversity in members is essential, mechanics, techs, thieves, faces, physical and active skills. A drug/BTL gang seems to limit the number of skills that would be useful. And rememebr that the go gang is still going to be involved in the drug/btl trade as a source of income. The other advantage in a go gang is the availability of age diversity. While youngsters will be common, it won't be unusual for much older people to be involved.
Go Gang
How big is the gang?
This doesn't matter that much, though if we do the start a gang from scratch, we have less and recruit.
20
What is the racial composition of the gang?
Metarace is a strong theme, but a single race is very limiting for a group. I think having a 2 or three metatype gang is reasonable, even having one that is focused on one or two dominant metatypes, but accepts others. This is certainly a case for a gang that requires diversity in skills, your ability to provide for the complex needs of the gang is more important then race. In fact race may simply be a by product of the originating neighborhood of the gang. Gang starts in a Trog/Tusker neighborhood, then it's mostly trogs and Tuskers, but the gang needs a mechanic or two and everyone knows that halfers make the best mechanics. One idea that could be a little tricky is to have a racial bias against Humans and all other meta types are accepted. Metaracial conflict is good material for dramatic conflict, but even if the gang itself is not into bias overall, there is still plenty of chances for individual members to act biased.
2 or 3 dominant Metatypes with acceptance of others (metatypes to be determined by PC choices)
What is the gang's relationship with the residents of its territory?
Ah, well, I think it should be the usual mix from tolerated dreaded necessity to outright hatred.
Complex
I'll be happy to play along with pretty much anything that gets worked out. The following is my opinion only.
Where is the gang based?
So far it appears that a specific locale is desirable, this provides more plot hooks. Even though there are some interesting theme gangs that don't really need a locale. A locale gives neighbours and a consistent set and scene for the action. Redmond is a common choice, as almost any type of gang can be there. Personally I'd like something a little different, like Auburn or Tacoma. Remember that any specific region can contain a large variation in security and enforcement levels. I also think having some security, a C zone, gives more of a challenge as you also need to consider the gangs relationship to the Law Enforcement in the Locale. Might be fun to have a ganger actually be the son of the local beat cop.
Auburn, centrally located, near enough Redmond, closer to other areas, and then there's always the Mall.
What is the gang's focus?
A nascent go gang (Not necassarily just biker gangs, but maybe street racing, drone racing, robot wars etc) I think allows for the largest variety. A variety of technical skills and support knowledge is required. A diversity in members is essential, mechanics, techs, thieves, faces, physical and active skills. A drug/BTL gang seems to limit the number of skills that would be useful. And rememebr that the go gang is still going to be involved in the drug/btl trade as a source of income. The other advantage in a go gang is the availability of age diversity. While youngsters will be common, it won't be unusual for much older people to be involved.
Go Gang
How big is the gang?
This doesn't matter that much, though if we do the start a gang from scratch, we have less and recruit.
20
What is the racial composition of the gang?
Metarace is a strong theme, but a single race is very limiting for a group. I think having a 2 or three metatype gang is reasonable, even having one that is focused on one or two dominant metatypes, but accepts others. This is certainly a case for a gang that requires diversity in skills, your ability to provide for the complex needs of the gang is more important then race. In fact race may simply be a by product of the originating neighborhood of the gang. Gang starts in a Trog/Tusker neighborhood, then it's mostly trogs and Tuskers, but the gang needs a mechanic or two and everyone knows that halfers make the best mechanics. One idea that could be a little tricky is to have a racial bias against Humans and all other meta types are accepted. Metaracial conflict is good material for dramatic conflict, but even if the gang itself is not into bias overall, there is still plenty of chances for individual members to act biased.
2 or 3 dominant Metatypes with acceptance of others (metatypes to be determined by PC choices)
What is the gang's relationship with the residents of its territory?
Ah, well, I think it should be the usual mix from tolerated dreaded necessity to outright hatred.
Complex
I am in agreement with DireRadiant's comments/ideas on the gang's focus.
Additional comments on race:
How about we pick Troll, Ork, and Dwarf as the dominant races and allow for elves and humans on a minority basis with very well thought out and integrated reasons for them to be in the gang.
It would be up to TG to police the distribution of races to fit that model.
As for location...I am good with whatever. Afterall...I can't pick where I was born.
Additional comments on race:
How about we pick Troll, Ork, and Dwarf as the dominant races and allow for elves and humans on a minority basis with very well thought out and integrated reasons for them to be in the gang.
It would be up to TG to police the distribution of races to fit that model.
As for location...I am good with whatever. Afterall...I can't pick where I was born.
Hmm,
why Ork, Troll, Dwarf?
Would it not make more sense to have the gang constituting mainly Orks and Humans, with a few Trolls and Dwarfs?
After all, Humans and Orks are the most populous races
regards
Bladepoet
why Ork, Troll, Dwarf?
Would it not make more sense to have the gang constituting mainly Orks and Humans, with a few Trolls and Dwarfs?
After all, Humans and Orks are the most populous races
regards
Bladepoet
Ooh, this sounds fun. Count me in. (though granted, despite having had SR4 since it came out I still don't get the character creation rules all that well)
There's a couple of things that'd need deciding upon initially though. Forgetting what the gang looks/acts like for a moment, who are they working for? I always got the impression that in Shadowrun most of the more organised gangs are working for the local organised crime ring, since they provide muscle, a way to get rid of certain hot merchandise, and a good place to dump those 20 crates of Cal Hots that dropped off the back of a flatbed.
If they're working for themselves, then it's probably less about money (though not necessarily) and more about survival & protection. The other question is how common guns are going to be, and what kind of guns.
I'll see what else I can find/think of, but that's all for now.
(though granted, despite having had SR4 since it came out I still don't get the character creation rules all that well)There's a couple of things that'd need deciding upon initially though. Forgetting what the gang looks/acts like for a moment, who are they working for? I always got the impression that in Shadowrun most of the more organised gangs are working for the local organised crime ring, since they provide muscle, a way to get rid of certain hot merchandise, and a good place to dump those 20 crates of Cal Hots that dropped off the back of a flatbed.
If they're working for themselves, then it's probably less about money (though not necessarily) and more about survival & protection. The other question is how common guns are going to be, and what kind of guns.
I'll see what else I can find/think of, but that's all for now.
So, first thing to decide would be the Securitylevel of the hood. For those interested, that don´t have access to sb´s covering them, I´ll summerize the Securitylevels, in which all the hoods in Seattle are rated. Then we can have a simple voting, to se how secure (and star-invested) we like to have it.
The books vary a bit on the definition, but not significantly, I used the SSG & NS.
AAA Luxury
The most secure areas. Privat security patroles in adition to the cops. The Law Enforcement reacts to every minor crime emidiatly. Everything is covered with SOTA sensors, the only gangs that operate here are incorporated security services running thair protection rackets
AA Still Luxury (High according to NS)
Really not much lower then AAA. 24h patrole coverage. People who don´t look like they belong are likly to be stoped. Response is prompt even to minor offenses, but may take a bit longer, then in AAA.
A High (Middle according to NS)
Most of the sprawl (they´d wish), this is for High to Middle Lifestyle. Significantly less patrole coverage, due to lack of personal, but planty of panic-buttons and watchfull naighbors to summon the star.
On this and all above levels the Cops become aware of a problem after the first shot, explosion or call-in. First response after camera or astral survay and drones is a standard patrolle. These Securitylevels are probably all too high for our purpose.
B Middle (mostly business destricts in the better parts of town)
Patroles are spread even thiner, but there is little crime in the area. The responsetime is as fast as in A, but the cops only react emidiatly after there is a call-in and explosion or full-auto-fire. First response after drone or astral survay are two standard patrolle cars.
C Low (residential)
Infrequent patroles and badly maintained panicbuttons. Patty crime is a part of life. The cops don´t realy try to stop crime preemptively and have a bad reception with the general populance because of this. Reactiontime is double that of B, but triggered by the same instance. No survay-drones, first officers on the spot will be a citymaster and two patrolecars with a mage (this is reinforcement in better areas).
D Squatter (Low in NS; mostly business and industral areas)
Crime is common. Responses are the same as C, but no cams and astral mages either.
E Street (Squatter and Street in NS)
No patroles, no affort to prevent crime, only to contain it from spilling over into better hoods. Cops respond only after repeated explosions (canons, rockets and missiles included) or after call-in from a valid citisan (with a SIN). Response takes some time, but will consist of two citymasters with riggers and combat-mages.
Z can´t get lower then Street
This is anarchy and the cops simply don´t care.
While responses on lower levels may seem more powerfull, keep in mind, tht they only arrive after the better hood has seen reinforcement twice (which is similarly powerfull) and wont react to minor offenses (like only shooting once in full-auto). On the other hand, the lower the sec, the less mony the gang can make in the area, allso gangs or the mob can sometimes substitute regular security in those hoods.
The books vary a bit on the definition, but not significantly, I used the SSG & NS.
AAA Luxury
The most secure areas. Privat security patroles in adition to the cops. The Law Enforcement reacts to every minor crime emidiatly. Everything is covered with SOTA sensors, the only gangs that operate here are incorporated security services running thair protection rackets
AA Still Luxury (High according to NS)
Really not much lower then AAA. 24h patrole coverage. People who don´t look like they belong are likly to be stoped. Response is prompt even to minor offenses, but may take a bit longer, then in AAA.
A High (Middle according to NS)
Most of the sprawl (they´d wish), this is for High to Middle Lifestyle. Significantly less patrole coverage, due to lack of personal, but planty of panic-buttons and watchfull naighbors to summon the star.
On this and all above levels the Cops become aware of a problem after the first shot, explosion or call-in. First response after camera or astral survay and drones is a standard patrolle. These Securitylevels are probably all too high for our purpose.
B Middle (mostly business destricts in the better parts of town)
Patroles are spread even thiner, but there is little crime in the area. The responsetime is as fast as in A, but the cops only react emidiatly after there is a call-in and explosion or full-auto-fire. First response after drone or astral survay are two standard patrolle cars.
C Low (residential)
Infrequent patroles and badly maintained panicbuttons. Patty crime is a part of life. The cops don´t realy try to stop crime preemptively and have a bad reception with the general populance because of this. Reactiontime is double that of B, but triggered by the same instance. No survay-drones, first officers on the spot will be a citymaster and two patrolecars with a mage (this is reinforcement in better areas).
D Squatter (Low in NS; mostly business and industral areas)
Crime is common. Responses are the same as C, but no cams and astral mages either.
E Street (Squatter and Street in NS)
No patroles, no affort to prevent crime, only to contain it from spilling over into better hoods. Cops respond only after repeated explosions (canons, rockets and missiles included) or after call-in from a valid citisan (with a SIN). Response takes some time, but will consist of two citymasters with riggers and combat-mages.
Z can´t get lower then Street
This is anarchy and the cops simply don´t care.
While responses on lower levels may seem more powerfull, keep in mind, tht they only arrive after the better hood has seen reinforcement twice (which is similarly powerfull) and wont react to minor offenses (like only shooting once in full-auto). On the other hand, the lower the sec, the less mony the gang can make in the area, allso gangs or the mob can sometimes substitute regular security in those hoods.
I vote that our turf be 'D'. No mages.
So, the security rating, is that based solely on legal law enforcement?
Because organized crime and gangs could security after a fashion. The Mob supresses street crime and owns the gangs, that sort of thing.
A gang could defend it's turf with all the speed and ferociousness (though not the gear) of good, legal security to the point their neighborhood gets a rep for 'safety'. Safe as long as you don't challenge the gang.
So, the security rating, is that based solely on legal law enforcement?
Because organized crime and gangs could security after a fashion. The Mob supresses street crime and owns the gangs, that sort of thing.
A gang could defend it's turf with all the speed and ferociousness (though not the gear) of good, legal security to the point their neighborhood gets a rep for 'safety'. Safe as long as you don't challenge the gang.
I also like the idea of a go gang. And I think Trolls should be rare in any case.
As for the sec sector... headquarter in a D zone, neighboring a C zone?
Bye
Thanee
As for the sec sector... headquarter in a D zone, neighboring a C zone?
Bye
Thanee
Thing is, security ratings are an indication of how much money has been put into an area...since the more it is, the more likely whoever put the money there in the first place is going to want it looked after by the police.
Other thing is, security ratings don't always mean there wont be any police about. I mean, if a gang starts raiding a bunch of warehouses in a 'B' zone, then the police'll notice sooner or later and be waiting for them. It's just a rough idea of the police presence/how much attention they pay to a given area, and how they distribite their resources.
Other thing is, security ratings don't always mean there wont be any police about. I mean, if a gang starts raiding a bunch of warehouses in a 'B' zone, then the police'll notice sooner or later and be waiting for them. It's just a rough idea of the police presence/how much attention they pay to a given area, and how they distribite their resources.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.