 Invincible Troll, Help with an annoying player/character |
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 Aug 29 2006, 07:21 AM
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#101
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006  |
Better yet than disembarking you should have just had the them try run the bastard over, if possible. Check out the damage from getting run over by vehicle. Mind bogglingly scary for something with as big a Body as the Citymaster. I haven't checked out the Troll's character sheet yet, but if nothing it'll make him burn Edge. Just to stay alive. 8) If he's smart he'll be burning the Edge to avoid getting hit to start with.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right." - Captain Willard |
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Aug 29 2006, 07:22 AM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
This is a blank sheet. Looks sharp though. Glad to hear back from you. From the sounds of it, it sounds like the situation is not so bad as it initially appeared. :) |
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Aug 29 2006, 07:31 AM
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#103
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Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 4-May 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 2,684 |
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Aug 29 2006, 07:51 AM
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#104
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
1 Charisma? He offends people by just being present. Plus Reduce Charisma would take him out of a fight with minimal effort.
If he's rushing in like that, it shows boldness and a strong force of personality; you may want to suggest he spend some karma on boosting charisma to reflect that. I assume he's raised his edge above one by now? |
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Aug 29 2006, 08:09 AM
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#105
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
The stats don't look extreme.
Is it possible that the invisibility spell is the only true problem? |
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Aug 29 2006, 08:53 AM
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#106
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Ultrasound, Motion sensors etc takes care of invisibility.
You could even use a sensor with some kind of vibration sensor to sense where people walk on the floor and a heavy troll would light up on sensors like a lighthouse. |
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Aug 29 2006, 02:00 PM
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#107
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The character as a whole isn't particularly gross, I'm a bit confused about where the 2 extra points for the Ruger come from? Not the 7 for the specialization, but the 9?
But that Uncouth with a Charisma of 1 and not a social skill in sight? Ouchies. All you have to do is touch on that one glaring problem area once a session and he's in all sorts of trouble. Especially with low Edge since the only way to even roll those forced Etiquette tests is a Long Shot. I likely would have had a chat with the player beforehand about that, and strongly encouraged him to round out the character. Because that is such a brutal handicap that played to it's potential could really dominate the game, in a mayhem way, and likely eventually have the rest of team absolutely hating him for the problems he drags them into. :( Oh, and if he hasn't seriously boosted his Edge with karma purchases he would have been so hooped if that Citymaster driver had any meaningful driving skill and had turned on him to try run him down. |
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Aug 29 2006, 02:14 PM
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#108
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Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 4-May 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 2,684 |
I'm sure his edge has increased. It seems to me the last time I asked it was a three. This is his first 4E game, and I don't think he quite understood how cool it was at creation. The 9 pistol skill is after figuring in his Smartlink.
I've been really trying to play up the troll with 1 Charisma thing, but it doesn't bother him in the least. I'd say it's at least partially responsible for much of the combat in the game. Now the group just leaves him at home except when they are on missions. In fact, that will be the focus of our next game. I think that I'll have the group be set up when they go to get their next mission. It'll force the others to work without relying on the troll, and will remind the troll why it's not always ok to sit at home. I've been trying to avoid it, because I hate to have one guy sit on his thumbs while the others play, but I think it'll drive home some of his social disadvantages. |
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Aug 29 2006, 02:30 PM
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#109
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Ya, it'll be awkward and boring for him. But if you warned him up front it seems more than fair game. EDIT Even if you didn't explicitly warn him, I'll assume he did read the text of the Uncouth Quality. :cyber: It sounds like it is unfolding as could be expected. 1) Troll causes absolute rukus. 2) The incidents of rukus dominate the game in a way that annoys the other players. 2) Team gets pissed off/wise. 3) Team leaves Troll at home. Now the inevitable 'Troll is at home when a action breaks out. Troll player sits and watches.' Personally I would have done him a favour and never have let a firsttimer make such a crippled character. But that's the past. Now is the time stop coddling and let him see why he should start spending karma or cash and Essense on those social skills and maybe start planning tosave up the 40 karma and a Miss Manner's crash course he'll need to get rid of the Uncouth. :lick: Or maybe he'll have interest in playing a different character? Once again it is my personal take, but I'd cut him some slack. Let him know if he comes back with a much more rounded character, perhaps not even a Troll, I'd give him at least a significant fraction of the karma this character has earned. Afterall he's likely to have lots of time next session to work on building another character. ;) P.S. Edge 3 is probably bare minimum, depending on the style of game you play. |
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Aug 29 2006, 03:25 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
that's rough for a guy's first character. at least he'll be real familiar with the game's combat system :) It's always a bit awkward when a team member becomes, well, a liability and misses out on a lot of the game.
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Aug 29 2006, 03:29 PM
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#111
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
You mean twiddle his thumbs and sit on his hands? Just thought this was funny, I'd never heard this before :D I'd be concerned if I were you. A character that drags the party into battle tends turn the game into a hacknslashfest. Boring. Also, if you scale the encounters to the troll, the other party members wll get owned. If you scale the encounters to the rest of the party, the troll will own everybody else. This is a variant of what happened in my game, except in mine it was an elf with insane gun skills and the Concealment power. No challenge unless I made things too hard for everybody else. I like Brahm's second idea above, suggest he make a new, more balanced character. Give him some transistion Karma to soften the blow or even how much Karma his old character had unless that was a lot. It'll make the game that much more fun. Just monitor the character creation process to make sure he doesn't munchkin his character again. |
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Aug 29 2006, 03:50 PM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,207 |
It seems to me that playing up the notoriety would make sense. If this guy's drawing a lot of attention to himself, there's going to be a lot of upset people after him. And if the rest of the team is trying to get around the CHA 1 weakness by leaving him behind in situations where it would be a problem, that's a good time to "strike."
How about this: rest of the team goes off for whatever and leaves Mr. Troll at home twiddling his thumbs. Lone Star found out his home address. Without his mage buddies to provide backup, a Lone Star mage casts Decrease Charisma, turning the massive killing machine into a drooling, motionless idiot, and he's arrested without a shot fired. As a sort of sub-plot, the team can try to bust him out, but they'll have to do it without the direct assistance of Mr. Kill as he's locked up with another (lonely) troll named Bubba who doesn't take too kindly to his lack of "manners". |
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Aug 29 2006, 04:28 PM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Skill of 5 Specialization +2 dice pool Smartlink +2 dice pool :) |
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Aug 29 2006, 06:35 PM
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#114
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
"Decrease Charisma" is one of the mage's "Troll of Doom"-killer spells of choice. Any time you manage to reduce a mental attribute to zero, the character essentially turns into a drooling vegetable.
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Aug 29 2006, 08:37 PM
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#115
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
He already mentioned that. The confusing part for me was that it wasn't listed on any of the firearm skill lines, so it suggested something special about the specialization. Now that I look again the gear list doesn't include the required extra SL accessory for the Warhawk, the only pistol mentioned in his gear list. The Ares Alpha does come standard with a Smartlink, but the Ruger Warhawk does not. P.S. I think the Specialization would normally be "Revolvers", not model specific. |
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Aug 29 2006, 11:06 PM
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#116
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Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 4-May 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 2,684 |
I wish he did have an interest in playing something else, but he doesn't. I'll ratchet up the flaws in his build a bit though, and if it bothers him, then perhaps he will consider something else.
Posting at 9am is bad enough when it's early. Posting at 9am when it's late because you've been up all night is really bad :)
That's exactly my worry. It's funny, I've been playing Shadowrun for a great many years, and I've seen variations on the "Troll Tank" a great many times, but it's never been a problem before. I think that a lot of my problem isn't just that the build is tough, but that the player is kind of obnoxious about it, and the other players just aren't proactive enough to put things back in their favor. Three more weeks until I start playing with the full group, then our 3 players will become 6. Perhaps then he'll be drowned out a bit. The greatest reason I wanted to deal with this now is so that he doesn't build this exact same character in the new group. I'm hoping that, if I show him his faults over the next three games, he'll build a more well-rounded character in the future. As it is, he's so excited about it that he basically has another player wanting to play a very similar ork.
Damn, I like this. Convince him that it sucks to be left alone. This might be a great adventure to wrap up our current game. |
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Aug 29 2006, 11:09 PM
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#117
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Whatever you don't let him dominate the table longterm and drag the game into combatfest. I suspect, without actually knowing the player, that that would actually be encouragement. Here is to hoping that it'll help to let him cool his heals for the session or two because his character, an obnoxious slob, is someone the rest of the team doesn't want around. Make sure to not award his character karma similar levels of karma as the rest of the team. Hate is not the opposite of Love. Indifference is. |
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Aug 30 2006, 05:57 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
If you do end up needing to teach troll-boy a lesson, try some of these.
As others have recommended, say it with area effect weapons. Grenades of every shape and color are quite useful. Explosive, flechette, sleeping gas, tear gas, or my personal favorite, Incendiary grenades. Invisibility don't matter much when your clothes are on fire and people can aim at the spot the smoke is appearing from. Firehoses spraying down an area could leave a troll shaped hole in the water puddles. Automatic fire with some unconventional weapons could work well. One of my favorite parts of The Incredibles was when Mr. Incredible got immobilized by lots of glue balls. Paint is another classic method of dealing with invisible people. Snipers on the rooftop are a classic. Even more classic for the low charisma character, have an undercover op come after him. Preferably blond and stacked, with a warrant, a troll strength stun gun, and lots of backup. For reference, I recommend the movie Sin City, think Marvin and Goldie, Marvin being your no-social-skill troll. I think I need to turn off the tv sometimes. |
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Aug 30 2006, 06:57 PM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,072 |
Ok one of the things that glare out to me is the Citymaster fight. Ok I don’t know the details of the run of course… But it is my understanding that runners usually don’t stick around to tangle with a serious Police threat like that. (Unless they were hired to). And killing officers!? Feth are they trying to bring down a storm on their heads? How can they even walk the streets without getting chased by cops? Wouldn’t a City master have a rigger (with drones)? I mean I like high action and all but how useful is a combat moster like that on a shadowrun. I don’t know about you guys but I’d try to minimize the loss of life on a run and staaay out of the spotlight. Sure you gotta do what you gotta do when Corp Hit-teams are raining down on you but tangling with the Star out in the open… Were your runners trapped or something? My advice… teach this team a lesson by making themselves face a mirror image of their own team and tactics. At the end, if they are smart enough, they will get the point you are trying to make. Heck add two Trolls to the enemy team just to spice it up. Hell you have story justification right already. Those cops he killed had families. When the Policia failed to bring your team in for justice. Say those families pooled their money together and hired a team to get revenge for them. Bam there you go. |
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Aug 30 2006, 07:26 PM
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#120
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Lone Star as written isn't that awful. Knight Errant, now they are dangerous. Ever see in the news how some terrorist in Arafatstan is driving down the street and an air-ground missile from an Israeli drone turns him, his buddies, and the car into flambe? That's KE dealing with annoying runner team that has a member who can’t keep his trap shut or who has just made too many enemies. |
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Aug 31 2006, 05:31 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
...that would horribly fail in this case. The paint would be affected by the spell like any piece of gear the troll is carrying. Possibly he would leave footprints...
You did never read the description of Lone Star's responses in high threat situations from the "New Seattle" sourcebook, did you? In my opinion two Ares Mobmasters, each with two riggers, one for driving and one for weapons, manned by a full SWAT unit, two security mages, drone cover, one or two choppers and any equipment necessary is more than a serious threat to every team of shadowrunners. At least in my universe. ;) |
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Aug 31 2006, 04:55 PM
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#122
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Sure, If you are still there a half hour later when they show up. But they won't typically just blow you up a few days later with a bolt out of the blue. The Star tends to be focused at playing the police role, so evidence, chain of custody, etc tends to matter. And if they don't actually catch you red handed they typically have to use police methods. Which doesn't typically include assassinations. KE isn't the cops, and they don't have to pretend to be them to runners who screw them over. |
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Aug 31 2006, 05:10 PM
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#123
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Sure they are. Maybe not in the bulk of Seattle, but remember, KE has the same "security contract" Lone Star does for plenty of other cities, for plenty of Seattle neighborhoods, etc, etc. That's why they're called business competitors, dude. Knight Errant very much is the cops in many places (just as much as Lone Star is), and very much does have to pretend to be them (just as much as Lone Star does). |
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Aug 31 2006, 05:19 PM
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#124
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Both are corporations with deniable assets for dealing with things that are being a pain to their bottom line. In this case, if the runners are causing too much pain to their forces or to their image/public perception that they can handle the criminal elements on the street, then I can see either corporations having individuals in their organization giving the green light to have some unfortunate incident happen to the runners. They can chalk it up as an explosion caused by the runners due to their inept handling of explosives or any other thing to take out these runners.
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Aug 31 2006, 05:59 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
Hire the troll-team, give them special new guns that suddenly stop working once they go up against the 'targets' who are in fact well-trained and armed Knights Errant instead of a small go-gang. Let them escape the initial fire-fight without killing any of them. Now, they are stuck without weapons in a bad place. To survive, they need everything but combat ability. |
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