Mystic Adept/Maximum Force, What is max force for a mystic adept? Options

[bahwi]

Ok, so I see, and have read, the previous thread and it doesn't seem to come to a conclusion.

To me, "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." explains it.

But the next parts, "For all other purposes, including the determination of
the maximum level for adept powers, the character’s full Magic
attribute is used. Such a character will not have as many adept
powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able to cast spells
with the same skill as true magicians." really throw it for a loop.

Yes, I understand it's the GM's call, but a maximum force of 2 and 12 really do not compare. (1 and 6 w/out overcasting)

And it says "can not cast spells with the same skill..." Is that literaly skill or not?

For some background, the character in question is a (cool concept) antimagic mystic adept, and his only spell is Mana Static, which relies on successes(which is dependent on force) and a ruling one way can change everything the other way.

I just want to get some clear logic(or if there has been an official ruling? I feel like this is hackmaster now, heh). But also, is the Mystic Adept with a Magic of 1 for spellcasting weakened enough with his max force being based off of his total attribute and missing a few dice on the rolls, or not? This, of course, barring an official ruling. I don't want to make the character not fun to play(although he swears left and right he'll change it if he needs to).

Thanks everyone, it's been forever since I've been on the forums!

[FanGirl]

Here's what it says right above the text you quoted:

[Samothrake]

[bahwi]

[bahwi]

[Slithery D]

So what's at issue is what it means to say "use with Magic-based skills."

Yes, clearly points allocated to the magician side of things cap how many dice you roll for spellcasting, summoning, etc. But do they cap the Magic you use for determining whether drain is stun or physical, and what your maximum force cap is? I had thought yes, but on a narrow reading the force caps are not necessarly "used" with a Magic-based skill, at least not in the direct sense involving dice rolling. Given the other part he quotes...

[bahwi]

[Demerzel]

To sum up:

So we know Mystic Adepts get (Magic - Power Points) + Skill, when conjuring and spellcasting.

We think that they have a force of Magic x 2, or (Magic - Power Points) x 2.

The issue is that a MA has highly (maybe overly) limited magical ability is we use (Magic - Power Points) x 2 as a force cap, but they may be too powerful if we use Magic x 2 for the cap.

My 0.02 :nuyen: :

I'm inclined to think that they are not too powerful with Magic x 2 for force cap. Consider that MAs entirely give up the ability to astrally project, and essentially have to pay a die on all spellcasting tests if you take a power point for astral perception.

Overall, a mystic adept sacrifices a lot by sacrificing astral projection just to receive PhysAd powers, I'm inclined to think that it is not too powerful to allow a MA to cast total Magic x 2 for maximum force and total Magic for the overcasting limit. The fact that they are giving up a hairy chunk of dice on their Magic related tests, and astral projection is penalty enough for balance.

And on top of that I believe the rules imply that it is in fact Total Magic x 2, not (Magic - Power Points) x2.

[Cabral]

When I played in the SR Tourney, with, I believe a FanPro writer on hand, the ruling was that the Mystic Adept is treated as a Magician with a Magic rating equal to Mystic Adept Rating - Physad power points (and thus a Mystic Adept with 1 point of Mageness could overcast to a maximum of Force 2).

This was much clearer in SR3 when the Mystic Adept bought a Magic power which was clearly defined.

[Demerzel]

Well I'm not sure I'm going to take much from that tourney as canon given the threads I've seen here.

I do think however that the sample on p 187 makes it clear.

[bahwi]

[Glyph]

At this point, a GM could rule either way. I would go Magic x 2, myself. I mean, if you're not limiting the level of powers on the adept side (a mystic adept with magic: 6 and only 3 points set aside for adept points could still get mystic armor: 6), then why limit the magic side? They already get hobbled by losing dice.

[Jaid]

someone emailed this question in a while back. i think it was rob that answered, and the answer was that you were limited to a force of (magic - power points) * 2

i'll see if i can dig up the old thread for you.

[edit] here you go:

Original thread
Other thread where it's quoted

[/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Aug 29 2006, 03:45 AM

[Cabral]

[Demerzel]

Well, then if that is the case then this needs to be added to an eratta, because the example states, "When using magic linked dice-pools, [ . . . ] all other uses [ . . . ]".

Magic for the overcasting and maximum force is not a dice-pool, so it falls into the "all other uses" clause.

What does use with a skill mean? When do you ever use an attribute with a skill? Only really when you add skill to attribute to determine a dice pool. Again consistant with the example, it only fails to be clear if you choose to read into it something that is not there.

When canon states it affects dice-pools and everything else uses full magic, then someone got e-mailed something that perfectly contradicts the rules written in the book, shouldn't that be erattad? That e-mail occured nearly a year ago, and it never made it into an eratta.

[Jaid]

if you don't like it and don't want to do it the way it is supposed to be done, that's fine. i don't personally care. change it for your game.

however, now that you've gotten your answer about how it's supposed to work, all that remains is to either accept that answer, or reject it.

i'm pretty sure it's actually even in writing in the BBB that the gaming police are not going to bang down your door and demand that you play by official rules, so you don't need to convince the gaming community as a whole.

and seriously, if you're only going to accept one answer, then why did you bother asking the question?

[bahwi]

Thanks for the links, very informative.

Now I'm just wondering which way would be best in this situation, as it drastically effects power of the character, and I don't want him to be too limited and don't want him to be too powerful.

The question was asked because I wanted to see if there was some kind of decent consensus or psuedo-official statement floating around somewhere, as well as finding out how it limited a character either way(too powerful or too weak). I don't mean to be accepting only a single answer, just playing devil's advocate somehwat(and don't mean to start anything!) but the example contradicts the rules as were stated above. =(

Edited for posterity.

[Demerzel]

Bahwi, don't take Jaid's statement personally. He's probably directed that at me, he must have thought I was the original poster asking the question.

[bahwi]

Yeah, sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like I was taking it personally(I wasn't, and edited it trying to make it sound that way as well). This topic gets heated up. I'm gonna playtest with each each way and see how powerful it comes out to be(too or not enough) and use that to base my decision on, because without an actual eratta it could be read both ways. And I am leaning to, at least for now, letting him play with full magic for determining force.

[Demerzel]

In your playtesting it will matter a lot how you play up astral space, and how important it is in your campaign. It is afterall the primary weekness of the Mystic Adept, and is of enhanced importance in SR4 now that spells cast in astral space are no longer always physical drain.

[bahwi]

Yeah, definately. Something I need to think about. The character he's playing is a kind of Anti-Magic Mystic Adept, his only spell is Mana Static, and he only has 1 point put into it(thereby limiting the number of successes not necessarily based on force) and it's a good concept. I don't remember if he took any Astral powers or not. It's a good concept and I like it, but how far is it from "Anti-magic" to "I cast toxic wave..." heh. But I am leaning towards letting max force be total magix(x2 for physical).

But so far Astral Space hasn't really come up in my game, perhaps I need to make it more so.

[Moon-Hawk]

Perhaps in this case it would be better to just use the old "knack" power. Of course, you'd be entering house-rule territory. Instead of making them a mystic adept, just make them a regular adept with a special adept power that costs 1 point and allows him to cast mana static at his magic rating.
It avoids the toxic wave problem.

[Demerzel]

I got the impression from his other trheads that he is also interested in counterspelling.

[bahwi]

Yeah, he's doing counterspelling IIRC on the character sheet. I was thinking that though.

[Moon-Hawk]

An antimagic adept could make an interesting tradition. They get a mana static knack, and counterspelling. They pay some extra BP for it. I'm thinking house-rules and antimagic adept tradition might be the best way to handle it, but some groups don't like house-rules that much and would prefer to stay within the book.