 Is Shadowrun an unequal world?, Discrimination, and not just metahuman. |
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 Sep 12 2006, 06:48 PM
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#76
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
i don't see why racism is an issue that must be skirted, but organlegging is not. let's talk about organlegging for a second. organlegging, in SR, is presented as an issue with facets. you've got Tamanous, who are definitely scary and evil-ish... but you've got posters saying "hey, if you need a body disposed of, i've got Tamanous contacts". organlegging is presented as a nasty, dirty, profitable business that the players can, if they want, get involved in. does that mean that every group has to work with Tamanous? no. the choice to not organleg, to treat Tamanous as a pack of fiends to be hunted down and killed, is right there, readily available. i just don't understand why killing people in order to harvest their organs is an okay issue to present realistically, but bigotry is not. and i don't get how presenting the material as being playable is, in any way, forcing players to partake in things they're uncomfortable with. |
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Sep 12 2006, 06:50 PM
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#77
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
What about the ones who don't like playing criminals with mercenary tendencies? You what makes Robin Hood so notable? It's the sheer rarity of any character or RL person like him.. except in Shadowrun's sourcebooks, where you're more likely to read about a hooder than a criminal with mercenary tendencies and a sociopathic outlook. Pthhhhhbt on that. |
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Sep 12 2006, 06:51 PM
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#78
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Yes, because because presidential and gubernatorial cannidates are hicks.
And when it was revealed that the real Kenneth Brakhaven was an ork who was murdered by his own father and replaced with an imposter the verified imposter and card-carrying humanis member actually becomes more popular. |
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Sep 12 2006, 06:56 PM
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#79
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Brackhaven is associated almost exclusivly with Humanis, which means hicks.
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Sep 12 2006, 07:01 PM
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#80
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Like politics, which is invariably done badly or just incorrectly. The stuff in RH, for example, makes me want to piss on the PDF and the authors.
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Sep 12 2006, 07:10 PM
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#81
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
What does that have to do with anything, other than making two giant assumptions about the authors and about the fact that intelligence has anything to do with crafting a decent dystopian world like Shadowrun's?
Hardly. Show me a racist (especially a racist shadowrunner) tolerated in any sourcebook ever, and I'll show you a shadowrunner who's a figment of your imagination.
Good for you. But that just makes the setting worse for treating serious things like a joke.
Compared to SR, the real world is about 180 degrees on this. So, given my 95% comment... Yeah. |
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Sep 12 2006, 07:17 PM
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#82
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Oh hell, I almost forgot. SL James, I owe you an apology. I went flippant in response to that post last night, because I misread some things that you had posted and wrote off responding seriously as not worth the time. You can pretty much ignore that post for any actual attempt at content. Sorry about that.
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Sep 12 2006, 07:21 PM
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#83
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
What good would that do in trying to make SR look like less of a cariacature?
Not learned city folk. But pretty much every major American city has in some way a pretty nefarious history of racism and racial/ethnical violence. Some still do. Some people also seem to not realize that there are more KKK members in southern California than in most of the South.
What sexism?
Apology accepted. BTW, Black Sun is also a criminal organization in the Star Wars EU. I was referring to the Shadowrun terrorists, though. |
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Sep 12 2006, 07:57 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 595 Joined: 12-May 05 Member No.: 7,392 |
Here's what has to happen before you can draw a parallel between organlegging and racism: * Hundreds of millions of people across the planet must have their quality of life negatively impacted due to organlegging. * Many cities must carry scars decades into the future from "organlegging riots." * There need to be vast, nation-wide movements to deal with the organlegging problem. * Tensions over organlegging must rise to the point where total strangers act violently toward one another over this issue and nothing else. Is organlegging there yet? Does that help show that, regardless of how organlegging is viewed in the SR world, racism is a far more sensitive issue in this world and thus must be dealt with . . . well, sensitively? Jason H. |
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Sep 12 2006, 08:07 PM
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#85
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I have to say, I'm a little bit baffled. I see a number of people criticizing the portrayal of racism in Shadowrun, but I see few suggestions from them on what might be a correct portrayal, aside from very broad and vague examples like "more realistic" and "less stupid."
Racism in Shadowrun tends to be portrayed in the extremes because those are the major plot points that spin off shadowruns. Alamo 20k leads to shadowruns. The middle classed guy down the street who makes off-color remarks about metahumans may be racist too, but he doesn't typically lead to shadowruns. That variety of racism is part of the mix that creates the Sixth World, like the facts of life of street crime, gang violence, and poverty. Poverty isn't directly mentioned much in Shadowrun either, but we know it exists, and we see extreme examples (or caricatures) like the Barrens. Also, low key racism doesn't express very well in the written format of Shadowrun books. I could have a shadowtalk poster who dismisses everything an ork runner says out of hand or never replies to them at all, and readers might never make the connection that he's racist. Caricatures, while simplistic, do translate to the reader clearly, at least. On the other side of the debate, people are talking about characters playing racists, which I think is entirely seperate from this debate. I think what is mostly being discussed is a portrayal of part of the setting, not encouraging players to play it. Like mfb mentioned, just because organlegging is part of the setting doesn't mean we're encouraging players to harvest people (though, I've read here about players doing it!). |
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Sep 12 2006, 08:09 PM
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#86
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Gee, wouldn't it be wonderful if racial tensions were handled as sensitively as that in SR? Like I said in my first post, there are people who survived the Night of Rage, but it's glossed over like it happened long, long ago. Back then. Thirty years is not that long ago.
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Sep 12 2006, 08:21 PM
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#87
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...good point |
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Sep 12 2006, 09:25 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,072 |
Sorry if this has been said before. But didn't Surge have a large impact in flaring up racial (Or at least discriminatory) hatred again. The big riots and all that. Humanis blaming Metas for the plague. Not that anyone bought it.
See what the world needs is another VITAS douching. It'll bring everyone back together again. But then they'd just blame it on Catgirls so back to square one. |
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Sep 12 2006, 09:29 PM
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#89
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
People underwent SURGE?
Hm... Could have fooled me. |
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Sep 12 2006, 10:15 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
To answer the topic's question of
I think that the answer is very much a yes, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk is based on the idea of haves and have nots. Or if not based, has that classism as a central theme. As for discrimination and racism, a lot of really good and thought provoking posts have already been made. I can definately agree that the discrimination is pretty cartoonish or glossed over. Classism and poverty is also to a lesser extent, but I think it's glossed over because of the nature of shadowrunning. It's a more equal opportunity career for metas and other people who might not have opportunities in the corporate world or even in middle class society. |
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Sep 12 2006, 10:20 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'd understand sensitivity. what SR does (and this extends back into 1st ed, so it's not like i'm bashing the current writers), though, isn't particularly sensitive. or insensitive, for that matter. it's just simplistic and evasive. one might actually argue that a sensitive handling of the issue would not link the ork metatype so strongly to african-american culture.
i'd like to point out that the way SR4 shadowtalk is structured, you've got a perfect setup for conveying realistic racism. you've got a small stable of known, recurring shadowposters that all the writers deal with. making one or two (or more) of them bigots of the non-hick variety actually would make anti-metahuman racism something notable but not a caricature. and have the other shadowposters accept them--maybe not gracefully, but as a fact of life. |
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Sep 12 2006, 10:35 PM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
I'd support this- it would be a good touch. But at the same time when I buy a SR book I don't want limited space taken up with philosophical deadweight that doesn't directly add any significant information that I could not fill in myself. So I don't mind if Mr or Ms Realistic Racism crops up, but if it's more than a line or two then frankly it's a waste. I already know racism. I don't need it spelled out for me. I'm not paying for a political dissertation. |
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Sep 12 2006, 10:43 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Another thought just occurred. Writers tend to focus on the dramatic. Presumably because readers tend to enjoy the dramatic. [EDIT: I'm a scientist. Trust me I often hate this about the world.] I've written a story before with some characters who were, IMO, 'realistic racists': that attitude and opinion is there, but it's subtle. In fact you probably wouldn't notice it, if the story didn't directly concern those issues. I suspect there is room to infer such attitudes in many SR characters, but unfortunately in SR as in this world it is the unsubtle, the simplistic, and the dramatic that tend to be heard and noticed. Maybe it shouldn't be, but there you go.
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Sep 12 2006, 10:45 PM
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#94
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Stop confusing drama with melodrama.
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Sep 12 2006, 10:47 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Don't reckon I have. But it's a mighty thin line.
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Sep 12 2006, 11:04 PM
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#96
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well I took you at your word. I'm not necessarily saying I'd like to see all this space in a supplement taken up with this sort of thing as I wouldn't. But you said no-one was offering a suggestion, so I'm offering a (very) quick shot at some Shadowlands style racism discussion. And attempting to present a non-cartoony racist that you can still see is wrong and misguided. Link is http://tarddell.net/knasser/racism.pdf. Hope that works. It looks a little sparse but maybe it's the sort of thing you meant. I do write better when I have more than an hour. Honest. ;) EDIT: I've just re-read it for the first time and caught a dozen errors. I might re-write it if I feel like it, later. -K. |
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Sep 12 2006, 11:07 PM
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#97
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Oops. Clarification of meaning: You don't see "learned city folk" lynching rednecks. Not "learned city folk holding a lynching in the redneck style". :)
Any -ism. Only mildly related, I know, but there are some here complaining that racism isn't handled "realistically", when other -isms and other negative facets of society either aren't addressed, or are handled with the light gloss of racism.
Hear, hear. I was going to post something about that and it slipped my mind. Organlegging might be happening right now, and in some areas it might be relatively prevalent, but it's nowhere near the scale of racism.
Why are you so adamant that it's being glossed over? Not mentioning it on every other page is hardly a whitewash. Of course it happened. It's right there in the history of the SR world. I agree that 30 years isn't a long time. Look how long racial tensions have been an issue in our world. But I don't think not mentioning it as a "giant major central theme" in every chapter is the same as pretending it didn't happen and that the residual feelings don't exist.
Ha. Wander over to the discussion about whether or not the "small group of posters" is a good choice. ;) |
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Sep 12 2006, 11:31 PM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i think James' point is that the Night of Rage is treated as history, like the Revolutionary War or something, rather than something that just happened.
i have, indeed, poked my head into that thread, eidolon. |
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Sep 12 2006, 11:34 PM
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#99
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
And the civil rights movement is treated as history. In other words, it's a pretty accurate way of handling it in my opinion.
We as a society take great pains to pretend problems don't exist (especially when they don't directly relate to us). Why would people be any different in the SR world in that regard? And since people write the history, news, etc... |
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Sep 12 2006, 11:56 PM
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#100
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the civil rights movement is treated as history that has a very real impact on how we live our lives and interact with others. the war between Rhodes and Byzantium in the 2nd century BC? that we treat as history.
just because we pretend they don't exist doesn't mean they don't exist. shadowrunners are where the rubber meets the road for most major conflicts, whether you're talking corporate, national, social, or whatever. forget dealing with racism as a problem, shadowrunning is right smack in the middle of where racism should be occurring. |
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