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> New Ammo, not really new but need rules
djinni
post Jan 8 2007, 09:09 PM
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the Bolo round fired from a shotgun, instead of using piano wire string microwire between the balls.
proposed ruling:
Bolo microwire
Damage: 8
Armor: -4
Cost: 80¥ (per 10)
Special: there is the chance of losing a limb, a Critical Success on the attack test will result in the loss of a limb if the target takes more boxes of damage than their natural body rating (Bone lacing and Bone density augmentation add their body dice to the body rating)
a Glitch on the resistance test always results in the loss of a limb.
{edit}: added a suggestion on rules for it.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 8 2007, 09:13 PM
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I would claim that monowire just isn't strong enough for that kind of thing, and if you braided enough of it to be that strong it wouldn't be thin enough to treat as monowire, and you're back to piano wire.
But I'm a big stick-in-the-mud like that. :-)

edit: Let me just add, I don't indend to come down on your idea, I'm just saying I wouldn't use it in my game. But since monowire (as it is described in SR) is highly imaginary, I'm sure some people will have better suggestions than me.
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djinni
post Jan 8 2007, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I would claim that monowire just isn't strong enough for that kind of thing, and if you braided enough of it to be that strong it wouldn't be thin enough to treat as monowire, and you're back to piano wire.

microwire page 254 damages by merely touching it
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 8 2007, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 8 2007, 04:13 PM)
I would claim that monowire just isn't strong enough for that kind of thing, and if you braided enough of it to be that strong it wouldn't be thin enough to treat as monowire, and you're back to piano wire.

microwire page 254 damages by merely touching it

I'm going to hide behind a weakly constructed fort of semantics. You said monowire, not microwire.
:D

You may have a point, so now I just have to admit that I don't know enough about firearms to feel qualified to suggest rules.
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Banaticus
post Jan 8 2007, 10:52 PM
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This is already being discussed here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16155
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djinni
post Jan 8 2007, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus)
This is already being discussed here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16155

um...that is a completely different piece of ammo
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Banaticus
post Jan 8 2007, 11:06 PM
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It's chain shot -- microwire or whatever strung between some objects fired from a gun, how is it different?
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djinni
post Jan 9 2007, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus)
It's chain shot -- microwire or whatever strung between some objects fired from a gun, how is it different?

it's bolo shot fired out of a shotgun which strings the line perpendicular to the flight path. the damage is from the line crossing the target.

the flechette monoline is strung parallel to the flight path. the damage is from the imbedded ammunition which when the target moves does not move in conjunction with the line strung between two anchored points.

chainshot is chain strung between two large weights.
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Banaticus
post Jan 9 2007, 12:33 AM
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Chain shot was originally a bunch of chain fired from a cannon -- no weights at all.

I'm having a hard time visualizing two round things fired from a shotgun, with the two balls somehow seperating such that the line between them is exactly perpendicular to the line of fire but yet in such a manner that the balls aren't rotating in any way. Because if there is any rotation, then we're already discussing chain shot in that other thread. Perhaps you could draw me a diagram showing me how the balls seperate without any centrifugal or gyroscopic forces which would cause them to rotate about an axis.
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djinni
post Jan 9 2007, 01:17 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus)
Chain shot was originally a bunch of chain fired from a cannon -- no weights at all.

yes lengths of chain, and anything else they could find made of metal and shove into the barrel. then it evolved into a chain weighted at both ends and aimed at decklevel. I didn't say "exactly" perpendicular. nor did I say not rotating. it is not a rifled barrel and therefore does not rotate like an arrow or a round fired from a rifle is is just kinda there the rotation will happen at the point where teh rounds seperate enough to bring tension onto the wire but that will be further than the target will mostlikely be since most fights happen within hold out pistol range.
I didn't state anything of the sort since a bolo round is an exotic shotgun round you can purchase. just like Dragonsbreath.
does anyone disagree with a damage level of the ammo being like a monowhip? what range decrease would be acceptable?
I was looking at a minimum range of 5m (to keep it simple)
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Banaticus
post Jan 9 2007, 01:46 AM
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So, your stance is that the rounds would rotate, but that there just isn't enough room between two close combatants for the rounds to really rotate well? How does the closeness of the combatants and whether the ammunition gets enough spin change the physical type of ammunition?

Where do I find this bolo round in SR4? How does its normal damage compare with a monowhip?
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Thane36425
post Jan 9 2007, 01:58 AM
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The important thing is how fast the shot would separate from each other. That would depend on the choke used in the shotgun. I'm sure there is website out there somewhere that talks about this subject in detail. If the two shot don't spread very far, then the wire won't be of much use. But I have seen such rounds on the market, but nothing about how effective they actually are.
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djinni
post Jan 9 2007, 02:06 AM
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QUOTE (Thane36425)
But I have seen such rounds on the market, but nothing about how effective they actually are.

that's where I'm not sure how effective it'd be, there are claims that the piano wire can strip flesh from bone but nothing from any credible sources.
I'm more thinking of shooting it low to sever limbs in game, but that depends on how effective monowhips are at doing just that same thing.
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Thane36425
post Jan 9 2007, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Thane36425 @ Jan 8 2007, 08:58 PM)
But I have seen such rounds on the market, but nothing about how effective they actually are.

that's where I'm not sure how effective it'd be, there are claims that the piano wire can strip flesh from bone but nothing from any credible sources.
I'm more thinking of shooting it low to sever limbs in game, but that depends on how effective monowhips are at doing just that same thing.

Well, you don't need to cut off a limb to disable it. A load of buckshot to the thigh should tear it up enough that the target can't use it anymore, as far as combat is concerned.
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Banaticus
post Jan 9 2007, 02:21 AM
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Shadowrun has rules for how fast ammunition seperates when you adjust the choke of a shotgun, p144. ;)
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djinni
post Jan 9 2007, 02:27 AM
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QUOTE (Thane36425 @ Jan 8 2007, 09:11 PM)
Well, you don't need to cut off a limb to disable it. A load of buckshot to the thigh should tear it up enough that the target can't use it anymore, as far as combat is concerned.

right but there's no rules to incorporate that unless I make a called shot to a limb, with his type of ammo if I make a called shot to the lower portion it'll be less negative modifiers and lopping off a limb cut the enemies morale down the tube in addition to taking their friend out of the fight.
yeah I was looking at that page 144 and since the rangefinder and choke setting can be altered I guess the minimum range wouldn't be needed focus the choke to narrow for long range and wide for short...thanks.
Added a suggestion for rules use in game
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ornot
post Jan 9 2007, 02:39 AM
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meh... I wouldn't bother with that kind of thing in my game. Even if someone wanted to make them, they'd be expensive, inaccurate, and not guaranteed to work. You're relying on the natural spread of a shotgun to make the thing work so it's as likely to wind up someplace other than where you aimed it, especially over longer ranges. But then I also consider a monowhip to be quite a technical device, rather than just sharp string with a weight on the end.

It would make more sense to me if you were suggesting a weapon round based on a bolas, that would entangle non-lethally, but even for that you still have stuff like stick'n'shock.

Incidentally in my copy of SR4 monowire is described on p252 and microwire on p329. While microwire does inflict damage if used incorrectly, it is stated that it can be safely handled with rapelling gloves, so I would rule that it is defeated by most impact armours.
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Thane36425
post Jan 9 2007, 02:45 AM
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I did find a lengthy article on shotguns on Wikipedia, which included a chart showing choke and how it affected shot grouping. It also lists some of the specialty ammunition. Going by what they say about Flechette ammo, it shouldn't have a bonus to armor penetration against soft armor. Are we allowed to post outside links on here?
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Fortune
post Jan 9 2007, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Thane36425)
Are we allowed to post outside links on here?

Sure ... as long as they are considered 'work safe'.
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Thane36425
post Jan 9 2007, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 8 2007, 09:47 PM)
QUOTE (Thane36425 @ Jan 9 2007, 01:45 PM)
Are we allowed to post outside links on here?

Sure ... as long as they are considered 'work safe'.

Alright. Here's the one from Wiki. All the info about shot pattern and specialty ammo is in the lower half of the article.

Wiki shotgun info


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Trigger
post Jan 9 2007, 03:06 AM
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I think this would make a better thrown weapon than an ammunition type. For the weights on the the bolo to be of enough weight for the bolo to properly wrap around the target and cut while doing so they need to be quite a bit bigger than what could be fit inside a shotgun. They would have to be a bit closer to shotput size to work in the way intended.
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Thane36425
post Jan 9 2007, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (Trigger)
I think this would make a better thrown weapon than an ammunition type. For the weights on the the bolo to be of enough weight for the bolo to properly wrap around the target and cut while doing so they need to be quite a bit bigger than what could be fit inside a shotgun. They would have to be a bit closer to shotput size to work in the way intended.

They might not have to be that big. The traditional bolo's weights aren't all that large. Just alittle increase would probably be enough to do damage. A lot of the damage would probably come from the target falling and rolling around and trying to get untangled from the thing
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 9 2007, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE (Thane36425)
But I have seen such rounds on the market, but nothing about how effective they actually are.

Based on the fact that hardly anyone uses them and they seem to be in the same class of "novelty" ammunition as all sorts of other freaky configurations, I'd say quite ineffective compared to straight buckshot. It's the sort of ammo that's illegal in many places not because it's any more lethal when used properly -- on the contrary, it's just more likely to kill someone you don't want to kill (like yourself) or cause serious destruction of property like the Dragon's Breath round.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 9 2007, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Thane36425 @ Jan 8 2007, 09:11 PM)
Well, you don't need to cut off a limb to disable it. A load of buckshot to the thigh should tear it up enough that the target can't use it anymore, as far as combat is concerned.

right but there's no rules to incorporate that unless I make a called shot to a limb, with his type of ammo if I make a called shot to the lower portion it'll be less negative modifiers and lopping off a limb cut the enemies morale down the tube in addition to taking their friend out of the fight.
yeah I was looking at that page 144 and since the rangefinder and choke setting can be altered I guess the minimum range wouldn't be needed focus the choke to narrow for long range and wide for short...thanks.
Added a suggestion for rules use in game

So, you're looking to use the called shot rules to come up with a house-rule to allow specific severing damage to limbs, and then more rules for your house-ruled ammo which modifies the previous rule in such a way that this ammo is more likely to invoke the above limb-severing house-rule?
:|
My advice? Just shoot the bastard. :P
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djinni
post Jan 9 2007, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
My advice? Just shoot the bastard. :P

it doesn't have to sever limbs a simple (8/-4) would be enough but then it would be the same as APDS ammo...
it might just be a whole lotta work for nothing anyway, I can't find out how far the bolo shots are effective for, I might have to buy some to see what they do.
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