 Regrets, Was fourth edition a good business move? |
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 Apr 12 2007, 06:26 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935  |
It's not just Magic In The Shadows. Check out the rules on Enchanting in Street Magic; there's material covering everything in MitS plus Target: Awakened Lands, State of the Art: 2063, State of the Art: 2064, and Man and Machine, among others. Not always a lot of material, but the rules diaspora adds up.
A fair point...mostly. Most "new" magic rules could be derived, if somewhat loosely, from previous material: sympathetic and symbolic links (Awakenings), animal materials in enchanting (Paranormal Animals of Europe), etc. SR3 did, however, have some disturbing trends as far as rule-inflation went, grossly out of proportion to previous editions. It's fun to watch the evolution (or fine-tuning, if you will) of aspects of Shadowrun's rule system (particularly magic, which has seen the most continuity). |
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Apr 12 2007, 06:34 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
This is absolutely true and the changes were absolutely essential. The problem with them was that instead of simply saying "Ok, you know what? It's always been this way, even back in 2050," they said "Viola! In 2050 you had to have a huge deck and a datajack to search the net. Not now!" Talk about jarring on a sense of disbelief. Similar changes between editions were never treated in such a way. Case in point: syncing spells through spell locks; suddenly in 2060 no one had to live in fear of their pals who had active foci. There was no "Oh, well, we have new magical technology to take care of this" -type explanation. It was just, "No, we don't want the rules to work this way so now the world is different." And everyone was ok with that... especially folks who had fell victim to whole active foci spell syncing thing. I and others in my group are happier simply "reimagining" the first 20 years of SR having been wireless the whole slotting time. Sidebar: Then of course there's the change in curse slang, but for another thread. ;) |
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Apr 12 2007, 07:02 PM
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#78
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the vast majority of the decking rules in SR3 were easy-peasy. 90% of it was clearly laid-out, with simple rules and no more complexity than any other part of the game. granted, that other 10% was a real bitch, and (i feel that) if you ignored it, you were missing out on half the fun. the real roadblock to learning the decking rules, for most people, was the fact that OHNOES ITS COMPUTARS. this is something i've learned after years of working tech support: most people don't want to be computer-savvy. any time anything related to computing comes up, their brain just shuts down and they completely lose all of their ability to learn anything. i've worked with lots of very intelligent people, trying to teach them basic things like checking their email and using Google, and it's like talking to a wall. now, don't get me wrong. i'm not defending the SR3 Matrix rules, especially in comparison to the SR4 Matrix rules. the SR3 rules were pretty clunky, and they made zero real-world sense. i like the SR4 Matrix rules better. but there are still quite a few people who find them 'too complex'. |
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Apr 12 2007, 07:12 PM
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#79
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well I think there's a difference in how deeply embedded in the history and matter grounding through foci and decks are. You didn't get many examples of exploding foci in the novels or setting material, but try and retcon decks and you have a major labour on your hands. I think the way they moved things on was very well done. I think the truth is probably that most players and newer GMs don't have the long continuity that would cause it to jar with them. It's similar with the magic-fantasy aspects of 3rd vs. 4th for me. I think magic was too jarring for new players and GMs in the previous edition. The moment people open the book and see 'oh the president is a dragon' their minds immediately go into high fantasy mode. They sit there and look at you and ask you how much it costs to get a Unicorn mount with permanent invisibility. In SR4, magic is not downplayed exactly, but its rarity and specialness is stressed quite heavily and I think this also contributes to SR4's stronger feeling of grit and reality. Not only is magic rare, but it has become more sinister. There are very few things about 4th edition that I do not think were improvements. |
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Apr 12 2007, 07:16 PM
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#80
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I have run across this many, many times over the years that I have played SR. You meet people that have heard that the decking rules are "too complicated", so they assume that they can't learn them. They tell someone else, etc., etc. |
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Apr 12 2007, 08:00 PM
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#81
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I'm in agreement with you guys on this point. But SR3 decking rules did take effort to learn, even the easy 90%, and a lot of people weren't willing to do that for one reason or another. Now you have a system where every single user interacts with the matrix in the same fashion. There is very minimal difference between Probe IC in SR4 and any other user in the matrix. The IC has an Analyze program and it goes around making Matrix perception tests just like everyone else. Not true in SR3. Almost every single IC in the core book worked differently than deckers in the core book and needed their own rules. Blue, Green, Orange, and Red. I didn't have any Red decks. BEMS versus ACIFS? Agent v. Frame v. Dumb Frame. Worms. None of it worked the same as anything else. It was unneccesarily complex. |
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Apr 12 2007, 08:30 PM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I concur. I've been playing SR since 1st ed. One of my buddy's was in the game store when the first shipment of SR showed up and he bought two copies of the Big Blue Book right there. We rewrote most of the matrix rules because they were too cumbersome (find the LTG then the RTG connect to the SAN, the SPU and the CPU. ARG!). I rewrote the magic rules so they were comprehensible; none of the six of us could figure them out without much arguing and debate.
SR2 other than some griping about neutered physads, we left the rules alone. Except for the Matrix, which we once again rewrote. SR3 there was some happy bits about Physads now at least having a decent growth potential. We groaned at the matrix rules (now being professional IT people) and generally ignored it. Rigger 3 did make me choke though, since it added Battletech-level complexity without any additional entertainment value. SR4 is like getting into a hot tub. At first you're moving carefully because you think your going to get burned but then....aaaahhhh. It's so nice. My one beef about the matrix is that it does NOT use the same mechanic as the rest of the rules. Someone should have pulled out the beating stick and made the matrix rules match the magic system. So these days my one rewrite is to say "hackers use stat+skill to run programs, just like mages cast spells, and programs limit successes, just like spells" |
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Apr 12 2007, 08:53 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I love that line... However, battletech is complex? Oh well, that's a different forum all together... |
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Apr 12 2007, 11:24 PM
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#84
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Funny you should mention that. One of my favorite stories involves the time I took a complete Shadowrun newbie and taught her to play an *otaku*. It took about ten minutes total, with a cigarette break in the middle. Like MFB said, the basics were easy to teach; and I could walk her through the remaining 10%. I've had a harder time with SR4, since it breaks the skill + attribute rule half the time, and uses it the next; two different hacking mechanics; the effects of daisy-chained commlinks, and so on and so forth. |
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Apr 12 2007, 11:30 PM
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#85
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oddly enough, playing otaku will result in much easier rules and less paperwork than playing deckers.
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Apr 13 2007, 09:56 AM
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#86
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
imo SR4 was a very good idea. I am playing Shadowrun after not playing really since SR1. I didn't really care for the rules in either 1 or 3, I never played 2. Also in the two groups that I play in we have added 8 people to shadowrun that would not have played or purchased books if not for SR4. I also know of others that are playing SR due to SR4 since, like me, they really didn't like the rules previously. There are now shadowrun games held at my local stores when there hadn't been for a long time, which seems to be a good sign.
We are looking forward to additional books but don't need them. |
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Apr 13 2007, 09:50 PM
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#87
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
meh. the stuff you need to know to play a decker isn't much more than what you need to play an otaku--you've got more programs than otaku have channels, but that's about it. deckers only really get substantially more complex than otaku when you're trying to a) build one from scratch, or b) improve one. |
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Apr 13 2007, 10:13 PM
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#88
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...and Otaku usually were best played by keeping them in a secure reinforced bunker since even the acid rain could probably kill them. At least technomancers can have physical attributes on par with, if not better than, most other normal metas as well as skills to basically survive the streets.
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Apr 13 2007, 10:21 PM
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#89
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, except they really can't, because in order to be effective in the Matrix, TMs have to basically sacrifice everything else. at least, that's my understanding. otaku will never be combat monsters, but they're not worse off than TMs. minus the social ramifications of being a kid, anyway.
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Apr 13 2007, 10:59 PM
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#90
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...well they wouldn't go headlong into a firefight, I agree. But neither would my Hacker Violet & she's got 2 IPs in and a fairly good firearm skill in the meat world. What I am saying is that a TM still can cope with the real world outside of the matrix better than an Otaku could, at least as good as a non augmented security guard.
If given the choice, I would much rather take a TM on a mission over an Otaku. |
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Apr 13 2007, 11:14 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, the age thing. the lack of an age limit on TMs is about the only thing i like about the terrible fate that has befallen my precious otaku.
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Apr 13 2007, 11:44 PM
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#92
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...and the fact that TMs can have better than 1s in their physical attributes and have adequate skill with a gun (with a smartlink), and wear armour (even if it is only a lined coat)...
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Apr 13 2007, 11:48 PM
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#93
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
otaku can have higher than 1 in their physical attributes. taking all 1s in the physical attributes is an option that grants the otaku certain other benefits. only one of my otaku ever took that option.
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Apr 13 2007, 11:56 PM
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#94
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Hot Hazing Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 8-April 07 From: Regina, Canada and Montreal, Canada. Member No.: 11,410 |
Can we also just all agree that Otaku are creepy little bastards and make our collective skins crawl? All Children of the Korn like. Grah.
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Apr 14 2007, 12:20 AM
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#95
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...[2nd try due to Windows crashing Firefox again - I want a speed bag with a picture of Bill the Gates' head on it] ...True, but it was an option I took to make my Otaku Akima more Shredding in the Matrix. When she achieved her first Submersion, I took the ability (don't remember the exact terms anymore it's been so long) to substitute her Willpower for Body when dealing with Black IC. This made her a real badass in the Matrix... ...out of her "room", she usually ended up hiding behind the Troll Sammy and was more a liability to the rest of the team. Even 2s are not all that great though. The best you could wear was a leather jacket without exceeding your Quickness score. That meant even a wageslave with a light pistol could take you down. Heck a Troll's bad breath could do you in. In the end, I didn't find Otaku viable as a PC member of a "normal" runner team. I did however often use them as effective NPCs to mess with the PC deckers. |
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Apr 14 2007, 12:39 AM
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#96
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
TMs have a costing problem in that it costs too many BP and too much Karma to make one that is good, and the result is that TMs aren't good at the price listed in the BBB. But hell, the MP Laser wasn't good for the price when it was listed in Street Samurai's Catalogue either. Technomancers are not required to be shitty by the rules, just by the assigned character costs.
Thus, getting a technomancer up to speed as a playable and contributing party member is much less house-rules work than getting an Otaku to the same point was in SR3. Or doing the same for a Monk in 3.5 DD for that matter. -Frank |
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Apr 14 2007, 03:48 AM
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#97
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, lemme optimize for you: you're not going to be able to be very effective in combat, pretty much no matter what. you'll have a high combat pool (thanks to your high mental attributes), but not enough skill to use it effectively on offense. so stack on the armor--you'll still have a decent amount of cp left over for dodging, and you're not going to be rolling any Qui-based skills anyway. for offense, go with grenades and launch weapons. grenades don't require many (or any) successes to use effectively, and even if you don't spend points on the LW skill, you've got a gigantic intelligence to default to. that said, i agree--otaku don't make good party members. they weren't originally intended to be, and the rules for using them as such reflect that fact. as much as i enjoyed the original otaku flavor, TMs are much easier to integrate into a party. i just... fuck, man. radio brains. hell no. |
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Apr 14 2007, 06:27 AM
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#98
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Layering on the armour would be a sure death sentence. For one an armoured jacket would reduce the an Otaku's quickness to zero. Second each 2 pt block reduces the CP by 1, so suddenly that 8 CP [(2 Q + 7 I +7 WP)/2], can become 6 or less and the character is effectively immobilised.
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Apr 14 2007, 06:36 AM
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#99
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I actually went as a GM from using the 3rd ed Matrix rules to not using them. It wasn't that they were difficult so much as they represented about an hour of time where I had to focus on the decker(s) and nobody else.
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Apr 14 2007, 06:39 AM
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#100
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i forgot about the movement rate reduction. even so, you're still better off moving slowly (i'm almost positive that your movement rate can't be reduced below 1, though i forget where i read that) and having lots of armor than moving quickly and having no armor. 6 cp is still above-average, and you're a low-priority target to begin with--plus, like i said, you can dedicate your entire cp to defense, unlike the guys who are actually expected to partake in the firefight. as soon as the shooting starts, you run your slow butt to the nearest hard cover and wait for the shooting to stop. maybe toss a grenade out if you're really feeling ballsy.
and, yeah. the time you have to dedicate to Matrixing in SR3 is a real deterrent. |
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