 A starting character rolling 16 dice? |
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 May 16 2007, 01:33 PM
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#76
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337  |
This is definately the one thing i like about the success capping. While we havn't used it as said, it has its advantages, like in the classic old, slow guy whose a master of martial arts and the young, really fast guy who has only basic training. Or the logic 7 character who can preform open-heart surgery as well as a logic 3, higher skill character. The thing i dont like is it makes the lower skills a little less viable(if i DID use caps, it might be skill+2.) Hmm...has anyone tried to combine success caps with Edge? Perhaps someone can use Edge to increase the amount of successes they are allowed, which can resemble that 'lucky shot' the Pistols noob can nail. Perhaps 1 edge per success increase...hmmm.... |
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May 16 2007, 03:28 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
Well these turned out to be some great idea's. Thank you everyone.
I talked to him about some of the things said here, and how a few things in his build were wrong for a starting character (having items higher then 12 availability) he decided best to just rebuild the character again. I guess his plan was to mind control a well to do woman to be his "Master" using one of the foci to keep her under control. I forget the spell, but it allows you to talk to everyone through telepathy, therefore allowing him to tell the woman what to say for him. One of our players created a scientist so he hoped she would make him armor and gear. (The player is my wife, and she said that she MIGHT provided he paided her enough cash) =p That plus the armor spell would cover his armor. With shapechange and having 1's in physical stats, the best he could do would be an animal with 3's. But he also pointed something out about spells. The Armor spell gives its protection based on Hits, but since drain is based upon Force, why wouldn't people just cast an Armor with a Force of 1. Then he could have a Sustaining Foci of 1, but using Edge he would have 24 dice to generate hits. Is there something I missed here? |
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May 16 2007, 03:30 PM
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#78
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
You can't have more successus than the force of the spell.
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May 16 2007, 03:51 PM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
That is what I was missing!!!!
Now I just need to find that in the book. Thank you |
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May 16 2007, 04:09 PM
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#80
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
There's an exception for Edge dice as well... |
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May 16 2007, 05:14 PM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 3-January 07 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 10,517 |
We've been using hit caps of skill+2 and they've been working really well. I don't think that I'd like doing skill+1 too much, it just seems a bit too restrictive. |
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May 16 2007, 09:06 PM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
An unescorted dog might draw more attention. 4 Some dogs really like new dogs and are Really Friendly. More friendly than he might want. If nothing else a new dog friend making a scene and alerting security might be interesting. 5 Could he be the "Mage's Seeing Eye Dog". 6 Would assume he practiced in form of Dog. 9? Addiction to Spell :rotfl: 10? Critical Glitch on Spell makes it permanent. Character must now Shapechange into Human |
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May 16 2007, 09:29 PM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
He is not trying to hide that he is a mage? That tends to make him the first target. He is not going first unless he spends edge. Area with background counts would render him less than useless. 1 body means he can not wear much in the way of armor. Sustaining a spell without a sustaining focus weakens his thier abilities. Sustaining foci can be disrupted by an Astral being. Guard with big gun waits in hiding untill he sees shapechange then launches air-burst chemical grenade. Runner with body of 1, not a problem. Edge 7. Ok. Rolls for dramatic reasons. Perception in areas where there is really nothing to see. Surprise rolls for the hungry man with gun looking for food. (Dog on menu.) Find ways to make him roll and think he needs to use edge. The way I read the spell is that the caster can assume the form of a creature whose body is +- (2+hits) not add 1 to the physical attributes of the creature for each net hit. Or Combine Physical Adept with Mage for a two person unusual security team. Same spell only with Great Cat. Have mage in question also use edge (because it is so effective) . |
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May 16 2007, 10:06 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
So I have been reading the rules again because even twice through I missed alot.
But from what I have seen on the boards, characters able to get 12-16 dice really is not that hard. So that leads me to believe that most rolls that are made when things happen are done using alot of modifiers. So say "Bob the elf" is a face man wants to charm and impress a high roller at the bar. He has 16 dice. The high roller high level corp exec. who is there to unwind after a bad day at the office. She is not in the mood to deal with anyone's bs. She also has a racial hatred of elves. So I decide that a threshold of 4 is what he needs to hit. (3 because she is not in the mood and +1 because he is an elf) He says, no problem. With 16 dice its automatic. Now he is in like flint. Would this be reasonable to make a higher target number then 4? |
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May 16 2007, 10:08 PM
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#85
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
You take on the physical stats of the creature you transform into(the stats for dog are listed in the book) plus the hits on the spell. |
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May 16 2007, 10:18 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Need to read book first instead of replying then editing.
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May 16 2007, 10:26 PM
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#87
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 9-January 07 Member No.: 10,575 |
@ Dayhawk: When rolls like the one you described come up, none of my gms would allow a person to buy hits, even if they potentially could have - it makes the game less interesting, imo, if you're guaranteed success to that extent, especially on a skill that requires on-the-spot thinking like that.
However, the times when it is allowed in our group is when the player's character would have little trouble doing that particular action, to avoid the ridiculousness of rolling 16+ dice to beat a threshold of 1. |
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May 16 2007, 10:27 PM
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#88
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
When you roll 16 dice, it's true most of the time you will succeed, but for dramatic tension you want to have the possibility of failing, so according to P. 55 Buying Hits "If the gamemaster allows it, a character may trade in 4 dice from her dice pool in exchange for an automatic hit. Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character might suff er bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits. Buying hits is an all-or-nothing aff air; you cannot spend part of your pool to buy hits and then make a test with the rest." This is the situation where it's stressful, potentially threatening and there are bad consequences for failing, then you, the GM, do not allow the "buying" of hits. Just like it says in the book. |
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May 16 2007, 10:31 PM
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#89
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Negative dicepool mods are a GM's best friend, along with TN's higher than 1.
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May 16 2007, 11:38 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Additionally: Succeeding at banging a 'not in the mood and hates elves' girl is what that 16+ dice face is famous for being able to do. It's the average schlub who can't make that threshold 4 that it is 'difficult' for.
I see this fairly often: Stuff is too easy for experts to do. Only, the target numbers are scaled for ordinary people, not hyper-specialists that you see all the time. You make it hard for the 16+ dice guy, you make it impossible for people to make anyone who DOESN"T have16+ dice to toss. |
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May 17 2007, 01:10 AM
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#91
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Exactly. Experts really do roll 12-15 dice sometimes, and they really do succeed at difficulkt stuff all the time. I mean if you're one of these assholes, you just pop a wheelie on the freeway. You stand up on your bike, you do crazy stupid crap because you've got Pilot Groundcraft at 5, a Reaction of 5, and a Specialization in motorbikes. That means that when you roll your 12 die pool to do something dumb, you get 4 hits and you do it. You don't even have magic or cybernetics, you're just a specialized guy. And if you're a parkour fanatic like one of these guys you probably have the whole Athletics group at 5. You honestly do just make threshold 3 or 4 climbing and gymnastics tests routinely. It takes you less than an initiative pass to scale a 3 meter wall, and you can jump down on the far side and not take any damage. And if you actually are an adept, like perhaps this guy then you just have multiple intiative passes. You can go on Full Defense and get a defense pool over 18 and stll run around and take offensive actions while doing it and you roll perhaps 15 dice (r more) on Athletics tests and you jolly well just succeed at crazy gymnastics bullshit in the middle of combat. -Frank |
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May 17 2007, 01:40 AM
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#92
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
edit: never mind. i am so not getting into this again.
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May 17 2007, 02:13 AM
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#93
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You see by the letter of the rules, GM should allow buys when 1) the PC has a big dice pool and unlikely to fail or 2) when the situation is not threatening and not stressful. As long as either condition is satisfied, buying hits is (by the letter) allowed. The rules do not say the GM should not allow when either is not satisfied, which is what you are saying. |
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May 17 2007, 03:01 AM
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#94
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I think In like Flynn is the correct expression you're looking for. Setting a threshold isn't appropriate in this instance, it's an opposed test. She rolls her (Con or Negotiation) + Charisma. Finally, successful use of Con (Seduction) shouldn't be a one way ticket to seksville. If your face wants to seduce this chick it's a tiered effort. That succesful seduction allowed the girl to look past him being an Elf, and considers letting him buy her a drink. He just got one step in the road to a relationship. If your player drops to a knee and proposes to a stranger it isn't a Con (Seduction) roll... |
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May 17 2007, 03:20 AM
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#95
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I think the key word is "If the game master allows it" which as we have established, he probably wont.
On a side not, Frank, if you take Full Defense you cannot act, you are just defending. |
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May 17 2007, 03:28 AM
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#96
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
There are 2 key phrases. "If the gamemaster allows it" and "Gamemasters should only allow this", one states the possibility of the event and the other states when the even should occur. Which as we have established, if he is following the rules, he should. |
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May 17 2007, 03:32 AM
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#97
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
The BBB is only optional to the GM though...
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May 17 2007, 05:04 AM
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#98
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's why he has two Initiative Passes. That way he can spend an entire IP on full defense and still take an additional complex action each turn. So one IP he spends performing an acrobatic dodge (climbs up walls with his feet and flips over opponents), his next IP he attacks (throws dude right off the banister and down the stairs). That entire scene is time consuming to run in Shadowrun, but not especially difficult if you have a Street Sam with a synthacardium or an Adept with some Improved Abilities. -Frank |
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May 17 2007, 01:49 PM
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#99
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Hey, Shadowrun is optional to the GM too. But if he isn't running canon SR, he's a DM and I know DMing gives you cancer. Cancer. |
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May 17 2007, 02:27 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
I always thought that the "flint" saying didn't make sense. I guess I will have to google the correct phrase after this. :D I think I see where I got confused. /bonk Ok, I see what you mean about this being an opposed test. For some silly reason I was thinking it was a success test. While I do alot of prep to get a feel of what the plot is, and how I kind of want the game to flow... I have learned that you can't predict what players are going to do. In this case I doubt I would have created her ahead of time. So from what I understand, I would then guess she had a Charisma of 4 and a Negotiation of 5 (since she is a high level exec) and throw in 3 mod dice due to the racial issue. Giving me 12 dice to roll. So lets say "Bob" succeeds. Would the 3 mod dice from racial issues hold for every test? Or would she have now looked past that being that he has succeeded? By the way... thanks everyone for your help. The system seems very confusing atm. |
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