 What would River use?, Firefly and Serenity meet Shadowrun |
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 Jul 17 2007, 02:28 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630  |
How is she uneducated? she went to school and was specially trained assassin. She's obviously familiar with modern technology. She also has no criminal SIN as she isn't supposed to exist. The alliance won't acknowledge the existence of the program, as such she's hunted under the table. I agree with Critias she's a plot device. |
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Jul 17 2007, 02:38 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Bremerton, Wa Member No.: 4,256 |
The Adept Powers of Blind Fighting and Motion Sense lower the total penalty for Blind attacks to only a-2 within Magic Meters. So with a good pistols skill her shots were not that hard.
:-) |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:40 PM
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#28
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Yes, I remember. I'd call that "random crazy bitch being cute-crazy today instead of crazy-crazy" (10 pt Negative Quality), not a phobia. She doesn't run around shaving the heads of every person she meets, or tearing out her own hair by the bloody, ragged, handful. There was a joke at Shepherd Books' expense in one episode to add a bit of levity; that, a phobia does not make.
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Jul 17 2007, 07:42 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Are you guys saying your party's gunslinger can't make 3 blind fire shots in a round and kill each grunt? Bah you noobs :P
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Jul 17 2007, 07:51 PM
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#30
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I wish just once that Whedon would make a movie that didn't have Buffy in it.
-Frank |
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Jul 17 2007, 07:58 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Does Toy Story count? |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:11 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
No. Being one of a team of screenwriters doesn't qualify as "making a movie." =) God bless 'im. Speaking of the man, does anyone know what he is working on now? |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:18 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
imdb says it's "Goners." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0481738/ Not a heck of a lot of info there though.
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Jul 17 2007, 08:21 PM
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#34
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Goners is a supernatural thriller that Joss Whedon announced in Variety Magazine in 2005 and is now supposedly going to come out in 2008. Mostly, Joss has spent the last period failing to write a Wonder Woman movie.
-Frank |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:23 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
A Buffy/Serenity cross over set in the Marvel universe, under the Vertigo label so it can include lesbian sex.
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Jul 17 2007, 08:28 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'd go see that. Maybe even buy it. :)
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Jul 17 2007, 08:29 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Goners or Wonder Woman? |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:32 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
No one has actually tried a full build yet? Everyone is still coming up with arguments why she should or shouldn't fall within a build? (ie. why not to do it in the first place ;) ) I'd question Uneducated as well -- but not as strongly as others. She's had early, abstract education; and she has training. What she doesn't have, she seems to be unaware of until she runs into it. In fact, she seems absolutely fascinated by some of the tech others take for granted -- and until the very end of Serenity, she doesn't really use any of it herself. (Flaw -- Tech-phobia [medical]? That one does send her off, and consistently.) The part I'd question is the inability to default -- but if we come up with some adept or mystic adept variant which allows her to steal knowledge from others (established in Serenity), it's explained.
If you reject it out of hand, then obviously there's no point in my even suggesting it :) Karma to increase skills -- or attributes -- doesn't always have to represent a clear-step learning curve, of the kind that we are most familiar with. There's other traditions that say we are already born with everything we know, and we just have to remember how to use it. In River's case, that could be a matter of learning how not to be overwhelmed by the world around her, so as to be able first to function, and then to specifically channel/control the inner pseudo-possession. I've been using the spirit term, but a custom personafix could easily give the same effect of making her unable to access abilities unless she is not "herself". In that case, all the "learning curve" karma goes to learning how to consciously access and control those abilities.
I place these three together -- because she doesn't. She just has the high Intuition and Edge to make it seem that way -- and after the extensive discussions on the Edge, Stat Mr Lucky, and Worse than blind threads, we know exactly why. As to her attributes, Logic could well involve a cerebral booster, which (even if we start at a legal 4) brings it up to a superhuman 7. "Legal", because almost certainly she'd have Intuition as her exceptional attribute: so there's another legal superhuman 7. That's 30+75+6 (for the booster) +20 (for the quality), of the 200 independent of 'ware and magic you're legally allowed. Human gives her the extra Edge point, so Edge 8 eats up only another 65 points + another 20 for the quality: 5 over the limit, but if we manage this without any other qualities we'll let these 5 points slide for now. (Yes, and the booster 3 availability as well. Points is what I'm focusing on, just now.) None of her other attributes are superhuman at the beginning of the series. She may have 'ware, but most of her starting physical attributes are low. At no point does River out-leader Malcolm, or outnegotiate him, or outgun him. Nor am I convinced that River would have been able to beat the Operative. Mal did. I'd say that makes Malcolm and the Operative among the best in the world at straight-up melee (base 6 in both attribute and skill); with the Operative almost certainly specialised in sword -- and you'll note that Malcolm was unable to beat the Operative, first time they fought. (Quite possibly part of Malcolm's earned karma went to Aptitude, another part to Exceptional Attribute: and then the attribute and skill have to be raised as well; while at the same time he is also filling in a wide range of other skills.) River's opponents in the bar aren't in the same league as the Operative. Neither are the Reavers -- their advantage is numbers and a certain kamikaze insanity, not combat skill. (We see individual Reavers being killed by different members of the team almost as a matter of course.) At no point does River out-leader Zoé, or outnegotiate her, or outgun her. She definitely isn't superior to Zoé in tactics. We don't see Zoé too much in intensely hand-to-hand combat, so there's no point of comparison. We don't have enough information to say for certain whether Zoé is among the best in the world in any of these, but by the end of Serenity she would certainly have solid 5's across a broad range of skills and attributes: and since she doesn't start there, we know where her karma goes as well. She certainly doesn't out Charisma (etc) Inara. Inara is considered exceptional even among Companions: but she would also be among the slowest karma earners, and almost all that karma goes straight into further Charisma/social skill growth. River is just fascinating (middling high Charisma), but without much ability to apply it. In fact, we might even be looking at Incompetence here. River doesn't out-pilot Wash. All we know is that she can make a smooth takeoff, and it's implied that she will be competent -- but Wash is said to be one of the best of the best, and we don't see anything at all similar from River as of the end of Serenity. Wash's piloting skills do grow throughout -- but he also broadens to open new combat skills. Firefly addresses, midway, that he was never the man who went to the meets, and thus was able to have his own combat stories to match Zoé's. By Serenity, he has become quite competent during some extreme combat. He may even have initially had Combat Paralysis. If so, by Serenity, he has definitely bought it off. River doesn't out-shoot Jayne. She has three shots that she makes with a pistol, at relatively close range and having seen exactly where her targets were. Jayne succeeds at quite a few more (including a sniper episode), and obviously has a broad range of knowledge with firearms and melee of all kinds, as well as their associated upkeep skills. Keep in mind also that just about every combat-oriented member of the team can take out Jayne, if they put their mind to it. They are already among the elite. He starts off as a broad-based grunt, pure and simple. Besides the expected improvement in what he already does, his karma actually go in part to improving his social skills! Simon -- the "I'm a very smart guy" -- started as genius level, call it 6 in Logic and 6 (specialised) in the biotech group: but he had zero combat skills or (outside his environment) social skills. Given that he makes a decent fight of it at the end of Serenity, much of his karma may have gone to learning how to survive. River has no knowledge whatsoever in his areas of extreme competence, and the phobia might make it difficult for her even to learn. Everyone always misses Kaylee :) Another character who doesn't go outside the ship much, she has natural Aptitude with mechanics and a very decent Intuition. Her karma progression is on a scale with Inara's. Again, she learns to fight in the course of the series, and has become reasonably competent by the end of Serenity. Let's not lose track that with River as a starting character we're really only looking at a very few attributes and (potentially) a single skill group: Close Combat. In everything else, others are far better -- and remain so.
Last I heard, negative qualities and a hard life were almost the antithesis of a Mary Sue character. The point of a so-called "Mary Sue" is projected ego wish fulfillment, not -- writing up a challenging character. If it is determined to see Josh Whedon's writing that way, Malcolm would come closer.
But just for fun -- and not least because the two RPGs use completely different criteria for "starting", even before all that magic and 'ware' stuff -- let's go solely off what we see in the series/film, shall we? |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:39 PM
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#39
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I'd be pants at doing up a 4e build for her, but I did feel it worth mentioning that IMO, the River in the show (even the one that goes nuts in a bar and messes a few drunks up) is a distinctly different character than the Buff...er...River in the Movie.
I really think trying to place both along any kind of continuum would just make your head hurt (kinda like watching River in Serenity does). |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:29 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 17-August 06 Member No.: 9,151 |
@ Talia Invierno, You've totally sold me.
There were 6 months between the end of the series and the events in Serenity. Quite a lot of growth can happen in 6 months. |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:37 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
I was toying with this idea last night as I tried to sleep after my AC decided to die, making it too hot to sleep.
River can be statted twice, really - one sets of stats represents River "at rest", the other represents her when the "Miranda Directive" is in effect. River didn't really start kicking ass until the Alliance purposefully turned her on, knowing the kind of disruption she would cause. That's really what makes her hard to stat - she has powerful abilties, but no conscious access to them. Her psyche is blasted that any contact she has with her "implanted training" is random and she doesn't seem to really understand her action - River just seems to recognize the training. Oh, forget the phobia hair thing. Phobia: Blue Hands |
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Jul 17 2007, 11:16 PM
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#42
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
River can do improbable awesome stuff at irregular intervals - high edge, low skills. The only thing she can apparently do for a long time is kick ass on mooks - which mostly involves not getting hit (high reaction, multiple IPs, good gymnastics skill).
So here she is: River Tam [ Spoiler ] Final Analysis: River's player is a cheese-head. She spent literally all of her funds on augmentations and assumed that if the other team mates really wanted her to fight that they would give her a weapon. Furthermore, she dumped everything into a couple of combat fields that she could sustain for a long period of time, and then expected to skate by on all other activities she might be called upon to undertake by falling back on her Edge of 7. In combat she always goes on full defense (gymnastic dodge), and rolls a not-inconsiderable 14 dice on her defense checks against ranged attacks (15 against melee). Then she spends her next 3 IPs doing whatever. In a fist fight she doesn't actually connect that often, and does a sizable 3P with a punch. In the setting she rolls in, she is almost the only person with multiple IPs, as The Operative is the only enemy we meet head to head who has more. -Frank |
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Jul 17 2007, 11:36 PM
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#43
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
In a comic book maybe. There's also the "she was always that awesome, it just took a while to all come out" argument. They both sound like excuses to me. |
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Jul 17 2007, 11:39 PM
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#44
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I dunno, we've seen some other preternatural fast gunslinging/fistfighting in Firefly.
How many times have Malcom and Zoe quickdrawn and shot the crap out of a numerically superior force before their guns even cleared their holsters? And of course, that bounty hunter guy from Objects, and we've seen Jayne Cobb in at least a couple of all-out brawls where he moves faster than mooks... But yeah. River in the movie is beyond unreal. Frankly, I don't think you can model her fighting in the movie under SR4 rules. I always said she was channeling The One. I'm reasonably sure that if the Operative haden't told the soldiers to stand down, she could have dodged all their bullets and killed them all. |
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Jul 17 2007, 11:44 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That explains it then, the movie came out before the augmented attribute cap on spirit possession. She was Channeling a force 12 guardian spirit so all her physical stats were in the high double digits. By the end of the movie she had changed her guardian spirit into an Ally spirit and Channeled it all the time.
It's kinda obvious when you think about it. |
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Jul 18 2007, 12:11 AM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Looking at the build, a couple of things jump out at me. To begin, this build focuses entirely on 'ware, and ignores the adept angle altogether. Hmm -- there's a couple of "minor" adept powers that could definitely balance off memory and "puzzle solving" -- might even be doable under a single power point to begin, and leaves some very logical directions to grow. (Pity the mnemonic enhancer no longer has the karma bonus. That could have worked perfectly, here.) Intuition and Logic both seem extremely low. Consider: if we are shifting away from using actual vision to determine hits, then Intuition becomes one of her primary combat attributes. Another part of the difference could probably be compensated with Body -- if she did get hit without spending Edge, she'd almost certainly go down. (Doesn't Plastic Bone Lacing add to BD for damage resistance tests?) Heavy 'ware emphasis on heightening her physical attributes. Attributes are relatively cheap karma-wise to raise in-game: why not leave them low at chargen? without taking the 'ware road? She doesn't have fast reflexes initially -- nothing even resembling that until the film. The knife attack on Jayne can be explained with a point of Edge. Athletics group 4? Maybe just limit this to Gymnastics group -- and with synthcardium, she wouldn't need it high. I'd question Cracking 1. Not impossible that she has it, it's just nothing we've seen on-screen (I don't think?) Same thing with Lockpicking, Armorer, Escape Artist, and Pilot Groundcraft. Should she even have any Pilot skills at chargen?
Mundane ability alone can take it very, very high: consider 6's against the average 2's and 3's. Makes quite a bit of difference for a Quickdraw test (threshold 3). Don't underestimate a lifetime of training -- and the importance of supporting fire from concealment :) |
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Jul 18 2007, 01:01 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
River can't pilot at the start of the series. She asks Mal to teach her.
River should have a very high Intuition and Logic, high Agility, average Charisma, average or slightly below Body and Strength. She's super smart. Simon says she made him look stupid when they were kids, and he's brilliant. She's not a great leader, speaker, or manipulator. We don't see her shrugging off blows, or manhandling anyone. When she takes down bigger foes, it's with speed and accuracy. She is not meant to be an RPG character. Statting her is like trying to stat Sauron from LotR, or the Reavers from Serenity, or Galactus from Marvel comics. She is Deus ex Machina, or Deus ex Whedona, whatever. |
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Jul 18 2007, 02:47 AM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 17-August 06 Member No.: 9,151 |
Which is exactly where they spent those 6 months. :D |
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Jul 18 2007, 02:52 AM
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#49
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
F MN 75 A MN 75 S Cl 1000 Health 4150 E Cl 3000 Karma 3000 R Cl 1000 Resources Cl 3000 I Cl 1000 Popularity -1000 P Cl 1000 Galactus has each of the following powers at Cl 3000 intensity, but using them costs him 10 karma and suing them past unearthly power costs him 50 health. Spirit, bio, energy, psychic vampirism Absorption power Energy, elemental and molecular conveiison elemental and molecular creation I'm too lazy to continue. And I woudln't even try to convert that to SR4. |
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Jul 18 2007, 03:18 AM
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#50
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CosaNostra Deliverator Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 346 Joined: 29-January 05 From: Philadelphia, PA Member No.: 7,034 |
I normally wouldn't try this but I'm feeling bold.
So here's my version of River. I did break two rules: -She has 45 points of Negative Qualities to make the numbers work -She has both the Adept and Spell Knack Qualities. I did this so she could have the spell Area Thought Recognition, which I figured would best emulate her Reader abilities. -I also used the optional Adept geasa rules from Street Magic, so her Adept Powers work at random -I resisted the urge to give her cyberware, instead cramming her brain full of bioware. Under ideal circumstances, i would have squeezed in higher Synaptic Accelerators and some Reflex Recorders. [ Spoiler ] Edit: to put in spoiler tags |
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