... and, having marked her opponents, River deliberately looks away and shoots: three shots, three opponents dead.

What Shadowrun abilities does River have? What would her stats be?

No, and no she isn't. They specifically say so in their own RPG (where they present weakened, watered down, stats for her that are still more kick-ass than anyone else in the group). River Tam's far from a starting character.

I've been wondering the same thing. Also, there's her Reader ability to take into account: just how precise is that in tracing location?

She's not a character. She's an Edge. =)

Edit: Er, I mean "positive quality."

A point: she doesn't start being able to do all that stuff. She's obviously got the potential -- but then who doesn't? Which is more immediately valuable: an unknown, uncontrolled potential, or the clear knowledge of one's own skills and the parallel ability to act?

For that matter: how much of her early skills might literally be the result of experimentation -- bioware or geneware, maybe? The net effect expresses as a dice pool, after all: it doesn't differentiate between where those dice came from.

(Heck, some of those episodes, you could almost use pseudo-possession rules in the way that she can't shut out her Reading abilities: in that the more she picked up, the less able she became.)

It's not until a later episode of Firefly before she uses pistols for the first time, during the rescue of Malcolm. Three placed shots. We could even say Edge for those, if we wanted. After all, we never see her using pistols again, even during the Reaver fight.

It's not until a surprise knifing of Jayne that she uses a weapon for the first time -- badly, Jayne would never have been caught if not for the surprise, and even then the damage is literally a flesh wound -- and after that not again until the end of Serenity.

It's not until Serenity when she uses unarmed combat for the first time. It's not until near the end of Serenity when she uses unarmed combat "consciously".

It's not until the end of Serenity that she demonstrates piloting skills.

It's also not until the end of Serenity that she becomes an equal with the rest of the crew -- not superior, but a fully contributing member. You'll remember, that was an issue that nearly got her and Simon thrown off the ship after she knifed Jayne.

Granted, in each case she uses the skill well -- but until that moment she literally doesn't seem to know it at all. Serenity rewrites that beginning, but still doesn't give her more than those athletic abilities and her own natural ability to learn.

There's also several things that, for all her genius, she's not. Never once do we see her as the tactician, for example. She's definitely not the negotiator, let alone the leader -- although Simon's leadership qualities have become just strong enough to clash with Malcolm's.

The character at the end of Serenity is not a beginning character, true. But that's not how we knew River in Firefly -- even at the end of Firefly.

Here's a thought: isn't there a "borrow skill" spell?

Cash for Karma?

Well, duh! River's being played by the GM's SO.

Remember she freaked out when she saw Shepherd Books' wild hair after he washed it but before he combed it. Thus the Hairophobia.

How is she uneducated? she went to school and was specially trained assassin. She's obviously familiar with modern technology.

She also has no criminal SIN as she isn't supposed to exist. The alliance won't acknowledge the existence of the program, as such she's hunted under the table.


I agree with Critias she's a plot device.

Does Toy Story count?

No. Being one of a team of screenwriters doesn't qualify as "making a movie." =) God bless 'im.

Speaking of the man, does anyone know what he is working on now?

Goners or Wonder Woman?

If you reject it out of hand, then obviously there's no point in my even suggesting it

Karma to increase skills -- or attributes -- doesn't always have to represent a clear-step learning curve, of the kind that we are most familiar with. There's other traditions that say we are already born with everything we know, and we just have to remember how to use it. In River's case, that could be a matter of learning how not to be overwhelmed by the world around her, so as to be able first to function, and then to specifically channel/control the inner pseudo-possession. I've been using the spirit term, but a custom personafix could easily give the same effect of making her unable to access abilities unless she is not "herself". In that case, all the "learning curve" karma goes to learning how to consciously access and control those abilities.

I place these three together -- because she doesn't. She just has the high Intuition and Edge to make it seem that way -- and after the extensive discussions on the Edge, Stat Mr Lucky, and Worse than blind threads, we know exactly why.

As to her attributes, Logic could well involve a cerebral booster, which (even if we start at a legal 4) brings it up to a superhuman 7. "Legal", because almost certainly she'd have Intuition as her exceptional attribute: so there's another legal superhuman 7. That's 30+75+6 (for the booster) +20 (for the quality), of the 200 independent of 'ware and magic you're legally allowed. Human gives her the extra Edge point, so Edge 8 eats up only another 65 points + another 20 for the quality: 5 over the limit, but if we manage this without any other qualities we'll let these 5 points slide for now. (Yes, and the booster 3 availability as well. Points is what I'm focusing on, just now.)

None of her other attributes are superhuman at the beginning of the series. She may have 'ware, but most of her starting physical attributes are low.

At no point does River out-leader Malcolm, or outnegotiate him, or outgun him. Nor am I convinced that River would have been able to beat the Operative. Mal did. I'd say that makes Malcolm and the Operative among the best in the world at straight-up melee (base 6 in both attribute and skill); with the Operative almost certainly specialised in sword -- and you'll note that Malcolm was unable to beat the Operative, first time they fought. (Quite possibly part of Malcolm's earned karma went to Aptitude, another part to Exceptional Attribute: and then the attribute and skill have to be raised as well; while at the same time he is also filling in a wide range of other skills.)

River's opponents in the bar aren't in the same league as the Operative. Neither are the Reavers -- their advantage is numbers and a certain kamikaze insanity, not combat skill. (We see individual Reavers being killed by different members of the team almost as a matter of course.)

At no point does River out-leader Zoé, or outnegotiate her, or outgun her. She definitely isn't superior to Zoé in tactics. We don't see Zoé too much in intensely hand-to-hand combat, so there's no point of comparison. We don't have enough information to say for certain whether Zoé is among the best in the world in any of these, but by the end of Serenity she would certainly have solid 5's across a broad range of skills and attributes: and since she doesn't start there, we know where her karma goes as well.

She certainly doesn't out Charisma (etc) Inara. Inara is considered exceptional even among Companions: but she would also be among the slowest karma earners, and almost all that karma goes straight into further Charisma/social skill growth. River is just fascinating (middling high Charisma), but without much ability to apply it. In fact, we might even be looking at Incompetence here.

River doesn't out-pilot Wash. All we know is that she can make a smooth takeoff, and it's implied that she will be competent -- but Wash is said to be one of the best of the best, and we don't see anything at all similar from River as of the end of Serenity. Wash's piloting skills do grow throughout -- but he also broadens to open new combat skills. Firefly addresses, midway, that he was never the man who went to the meets, and thus was able to have his own combat stories to match Zoé's. By Serenity, he has become quite competent during some extreme combat. He may even have initially had Combat Paralysis. If so, by Serenity, he has definitely bought it off.

River doesn't out-shoot Jayne. She has three shots that she makes with a pistol, at relatively close range and having seen exactly where her targets were. Jayne succeeds at quite a few more (including a sniper episode), and obviously has a broad range of knowledge with firearms and melee of all kinds, as well as their associated upkeep skills. Keep in mind also that just about every combat-oriented member of the team can take out Jayne, if they put their mind to it. They are already among the elite. He starts off as a broad-based grunt, pure and simple. Besides the expected improvement in what he already does, his karma actually go in part to improving his social skills!

Simon -- the "I'm a very smart guy" -- started as genius level, call it 6 in Logic and 6 (specialised) in the biotech group: but he had zero combat skills or (outside his environment) social skills. Given that he makes a decent fight of it at the end of Serenity, much of his karma may have gone to learning how to survive. River has no knowledge whatsoever in his areas of extreme competence, and the phobia might make it difficult for her even to learn.

Everyone always misses Kaylee Another character who doesn't go outside the ship much, she has natural Aptitude with mechanics and a very decent Intuition. Her karma progression is on a scale with Inara's. Again, she learns to fight in the course of the series, and has become reasonably competent by the end of Serenity.

Let's not lose track that with River as a starting character we're really only looking at a very few attributes and (potentially) a single skill group: Close Combat. In everything else, others are far better -- and remain so.

Last I heard, negative qualities and a hard life were almost the antithesis of a Mary Sue character. The point of a so-called "Mary Sue" is projected ego wish fulfillment, not -- writing up a challenging character. If it is determined to see Josh Whedon's writing that way, Malcolm would come closer.

But just for fun -- and not least because the two RPGs use completely different criteria for "starting", even before all that magic and 'ware' stuff -- let's go solely off what we see in the series/film, shall we?

There were 6 months between the end of the series and the events in Serenity. Quite a lot of growth can happen in 6 months.

In a comic book maybe. There's also the "she was always that awesome, it just took a while to all come out" argument. They both sound like excuses to me.

Mundane ability alone can take it very, very high: consider 6's against the average 2's and 3's. Makes quite a bit of difference for a Quickdraw test (threshold 3). Don't underestimate a lifetime of training -- and the importance of supporting fire from concealment

Which is exactly where they spent those 6 months.

F MN 75
A MN 75
S Cl 1000 Health 4150
E Cl 3000 Karma 3000
R Cl 1000 Resources Cl 3000
I Cl 1000 Popularity -1000
P Cl 1000
Galactus has each of the following powers at Cl 3000 intensity, but using them costs him 10 karma and suing them past unearthly power costs him 50 health.
Spirit, bio, energy, psychic vampirism
Absorption power
Energy, elemental and molecular conveiison
elemental and molecular creation

I'm too lazy to continue. And I woudln't even try to convert that to SR4.