 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 20 2007, 08:31 AM
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#251
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
Have one of the guys pop astral and assense the dragon. Now its a threshold 4, rush the job, use some edge on it, and your interval is half a day, and the edge fixes your glitch, so there ya go. Likely to get it in one go.
Yes, they do get -6 for symbolic link, and they get +6 for the symbolic link focus that negates it. Street Magic pg 30. They all have one. |
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Jul 20 2007, 08:39 AM
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#252
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
If you're using a symbolic link focus you actually have to enchant the symbolic link on top of just making the symbolic link, which adds a (16+Object Resistance) / 1 day test.
Also, isn't there a rule about not using more than one focus on a single test? (EDIT: SR4.192, under "Bonding": "Regardless of the number of foci a magician may possess, only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool.") As far as "popping astral" to go assense the dragon, not only do you have to actually get to the dragon, get past its defenses, assense it, and get out alive, once you pop in there, as Talia mentioned, the dragon becomes active too. EDIT: Also, the guy who makes the symbolic link has to have personally done the assensing to for it to count, so either they all go, or one guy has to make X links, which takes even more time. |
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Jul 20 2007, 08:49 AM
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#253
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Drop the symbolic focus then, you lose a net of 36 dice off the test. 30 from the assisting guys (10 average hits, + 6 more from rerolls) 16. Plus 6 from the guy using his edge, 2 hits, average 1 from exploding 6's. 19 hits total.
Drops the DV down from 65P to 46P. Yeah, that dragons really gonna live now. Edit: You're right on the one focus thing. So take out another 6 pool from the power foci. Thats overall a whole 3 hits more. Dropping it to 43P. Yep, he's looking really healthy now. |
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Jul 20 2007, 08:53 AM
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#254
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I'm not saying he's going to live; you just asked for problems, so I'm pointing out the ones I'm seeing -- you know Talia's going to anyway.
As I said -- main problem I see is that 16 / 1 day issue for crafting the link. |
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Jul 20 2007, 08:59 AM
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#255
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Right. Rush the job, interval is half a day now. Teamwork test. Have their bound spirits guard so glitches don't matter. Now you get 5 guys with Int + Skill (4 + 6) 10 + Edge on it. To teamwork for the big one. You get 3 hits average, with 2 extra from edge. 5 hits total (you don't need to save edge for glitches, thanks to guard). 5 * 5 = 25.
Main guy goes, with his 10 + 25 for 35 pool. Average of 11 hits. Edge to reroll failures. 24 dice makes 8 more hits. 19 hits vs 16 threshold is done in half a day. 2 hours later, you have a splattered dragon. |
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Jul 20 2007, 09:20 AM
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#256
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Excellent.
Got any contingencies for when, an hour into the ritual, the dragon says, "Oh shit, I think someone's doing a ritual casting at me," and inevitably steps under whatever ward is handy, and then starts pumping out Spirits of Man every other combat turn for an hour straight, with the optional Innate Spell (Mana Barrier) and an order to cast a mana barrier inside the last one cast? Or, alternatively, it starts pumping out spirits that can counterspell to the same effect? (... technically, better effect, I think...) EDIT: If you modify the leader to have an 11 magic, that takes care of this problem. |
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Jul 20 2007, 09:26 AM
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#257
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
With a Spellcasting of 4, you could have at most 8 Spells at chargen. |
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Jul 20 2007, 09:30 AM
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#258
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I guess you'd want to spend some of the remaining BP on spellcasting then, and drop a few to boot. :) (EDIT: Probably up spellcasting to 6, drop astral armor, armor, prophylaxis, levitate, and learn at least levitate using karma. Net effect: -5 karma/+4 BP remaining) |
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Jul 20 2007, 09:41 AM
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#259
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
I didn't see the stats mentioned again, so in case you want to reference the troll archer's stats I'll relink p.3, with Tarantula's original dragon killer character (about a third of the way down). Apart from a few PC builds, it looks like you have two separate team proposals: Crusher Bob's broad-based team, and Tarantula's focused magic ritual team, both on p.10. This decision has to be made before the attempted killing of the dragon can proceed.
And a few others, yes: but for the purpose of this challenge I'm not giving the dragon any karma. (Contacts and spells I'm buying with bp back-converted from nuyen.) Believe me, I'm noticing the limitations!
For this purpose, the only legwork possible within the 24 hours will be to learn more about the area. In a larger campaign, you could have discovered details of the dragon's dealings with the greater world -- but you wouldn't be able to find out anything about the lair itself. That may change your choices.
Some of these critters respond better to training than others. As one example I'd definitely allow hellhounds with an Active skill in Animal Handling (Hellhound) ... bearing in mind that in this kind of combat situation, the handler might have to repeatedly roll the skill (possibly as an opposed roll) to keep control of the animals.
Well, this one doesn't. The question is still under debate in the other thread.
I think I'll require these to be Loyalty 6 contacts, if you go this route. You're only trusting them with your life, completely and utterly -- and you're requiring them to go considerably past best judgement for your well-being, not theirs.
Damage taken due to drain is not magically healable. That was clarified by Synner in the stickied Street Magic thread: in discussing what was the point of the Sacrificing metamagic. Threat metamagics are not permissible for PCs. Anything else I missed in this endless loop?
Let me know when you do this. Combat turns, please. All right, that catches me completely up. (I'm going to be off-line for longer, this time; probably back on Saturday.) Trying to stick strictly throughout with the core rules, to give us the reliable common basis. It's possible I might slip: in which case please do correct me. And I hope you're having fun with the chargen/build wet dreams. :) |
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Jul 20 2007, 10:16 AM
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#260
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Alright then, proceed directly to exploitation #2...
Okay. In that case: 1. Spend the 4BP freed up previously by spells, drop a point in enchanting, make an arbitrarily large number of Wicker Men (sm.87) at 600 a pop. 2. Buy an arbitrarily large number of First Aid (6) kits at 600 a pop. 3. Whip up an arbitrarily large amount of Force 6 task spirits with Skill (First Aid), have them possess the Wicker Men, and task them remote service style to heal you when injured using Skill (First Aid) with First Aid Kit in teamwork with any other Wicker Men. (the Shadow Run 4 FAQ does say drain can be healed with mundane means...) 4. While summoning up the task spirits, summon up a spirit of man and have it use Guard to protect against glitches at appropriate intervals. Remote Service style, of course. 5. Proceed with loop. It should be noted that the character no longer needs the spirit pact, and so gets the 5BP back, and no longer needs to reserve the karma for that spirit pact, and is free to spend it as he pleases. |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:13 AM
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#261
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
And by the way, if we're talking arbitrarily large, assuming I summon say, 84 of those spirits, I'm rolling... let's call it 1000 dice.
n=1000 p=1/3 mu=333 sigma squared=223 sigma=15 On 1000 dice, I'm pretty certain to get at least 228 successes (99.99999999974% sure). Set new dice pool to that number of successes: n=228 p=1/3 mu=76 sigma squared=51 sigma=7.11 (~7) On 228 dice, I'm pretty sure to get at least 28 successes (99.99999980268% sure). So, I'm still pretty confident he's "safe", assuming there's no errata I'm missing that prohibits first aid/teamwork on physical drain. 84 of the spirits is no trouble at all -- go to the right place in Alaska at the right time of year, and sunrise to sunset is 85 days. Not to mention you can summon 1200 spirits an hour, assuming the drain doesn't own you first. It should also be noted that I suspect that using this teamwork exploitation and the 85 day day in Alaska, you could easily increase the ally spirit's force as high as you want and still be "safe" on the binding. Just add more task spirits, more wicker men, more medkits. And if you want to put a cap on the number of spirits that can do teamwork on the First Aid, well, we can always prepare higher force wicker men and summon higher force task spirits as our magic balloons during the main loop. (although, RAW, AFAIK, don't have a provision for such a limit) |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:52 AM
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#262
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Hell, come to think of it, using that loop, you don't even need the ally spirit.
Just loop up to a really high magic rating, spawning off task spirits as you go, and remote service some arbitrarily high force spirits to go kill the dragon. I can't imagine how a dragon would deal with 50 force 50 spirits coming his way all at once. |
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Jul 20 2007, 12:35 PM
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#263
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
How the heck do you even get a force 50 spirit, which would be the most powerful being on earth ever?
And there's a maximum number of people who can heal you, before the rest simply does nothing at all... |
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Jul 20 2007, 12:57 PM
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#264
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
See the loop to summon ally spirit in post above. To summarize: 1. Assuming the first aid/teamwork thing is arbitrary in number of participants, and first aid can heal drain, you can heal an arbitrary amount of drain in short order: Summon a bunch of task spirits with the First Aid skill, set them to heal you using teamwork. Make this number very large. 2. Summon a spirit with force slightly higher than your magic, but not so high that the drain can kill you outright. 3. Let your medical team heal you. 4. Channel the spirit. Your physical stats are the sum of the force and your own stats; mental and special stats are equal to the spirit's (magic is a special stat); this increases your damage track, your overflow, etc. 5. Because your damage track, overflow, etc, increased, you can repeat the process pretty much infinitely if you make the force increase steps small. Repeat until you're satisfied.
Reference please? (Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see what it says, and if it's possible to break it) |
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Jul 20 2007, 01:35 PM
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#265
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
First of all, the subject is "entering a specific room in a complex" NOT "infiltrating the lair". You would get +1 threshold for every drill down question about the room, not about the whole complex. By your logic you'd get a +1 threshold cumulatively for your entire life because you're using Divining while "making money shadowrunning" (as you said "I dont care how you rephrase it thats what you doing") therefore you keep accumulating +1 threshold your entire life until you die. For example: "What would I perceive when I enter the front door at 6:00pm?" This is the same as asking: "What would Mr. Johnson say if I asked for another 10,000 nuyen?" or "What would happen if I started my car right now?" This is a very specific question about an event caused by an event and therefore 4 threshold. With 3 successes = "You see a large room beyond with a door at the far end and you hear alarm bells going off and the distant sound of boots running on concrete and doors opening" (you don't see the 2 doors on either side of you or the spirit in the corner because you can't see them from the door) "What would I perceive when I walk into that room at 6:01pm?" 4+1 threshold I roll 3 successes (somehow...) = "You see a large empty oddly shaped room with a door in front of you and a door to either side of you." "What would I perceive when I fire a gun in that room at 6:01pm?" 4+2 threshold I roll 3 successes (unlikely...) = "You see a large spirit appear in front of you and leap at you" "What would I perceive when I view that room with astral perception at 6:01pm?" 4+3 threshold and so on But then: "What would I perceive when I walk through that door at the end of that room at 6:02pm and I hadn't set off the alarm yet?" back to 4 threshold. "What would I perceive when I walk through that door at the end of that room at 6:02pm and I HAD already set off the alarm?" 4+1 threshold. It isn't a "spy satellite", it's asking specific questions about specific events. Otherwise what the hell is Divining for? |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:01 PM
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#266
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Frank: Every few weeks? For its lair once and spend karma... Who the help (save another dragon) is going to BUST force 18 words ... something as important as its lair .. Overcating and karma to make permenant, if I have any kind of permenant lair (aka not living in shadows) would be on of the first things I would do. |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:03 PM
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#267
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Let me amend what I said by saying that I would think that you would probably accumulate +1 threshold throughout a divination chain but the threshold would reset once you were now directly perceiving the next subject or event.
For example, after I had walked through the front door and was now facing the second door and I THEN asked about what was beyond that first door, then the threshold would reset back to 4. But if I only acquired knowledge about an event or subject using Divining, then the +1 cumulative threshold would apply. So in that sense, it would be tricky to get a complete map of the complex this way BEFORE you started entering the complex, but you could get a good map of the complex once you started going through it. To simplify things, you could always ask "What would I see if I opened up the map to this complex?". If there is no map that exists in the future, then you'd get that as an answer. You could also ask "What does the dragon see as he walks through the complex?" "What does patrol guard #1 see..." etc. Those would be threshold 4 for each person in the complex and wouldnt suffer the +1 accumulation (as long as you didnt learn about those people only from Divining) |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:32 PM
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#268
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Well to correct a mis-use of specific terms: To be technical the 'Subject' is the person. The situation is the quesitonable point. Now the rules say: You get +1 until the subject or the situation changes suffieciently for the GM. (paraphrpase). You COULD (though would have to assay each person) try multiple subjects. As to the situation: To me the situation (admitedly a gm call) has changed suffeciently as long as it is about gaining information on the dragons lair. For example: Will Bobby jones take a bribe to let people past the security gate? Is a good question. If yes, then you could refine it to: Would Bobby Jones take and honor a bribe of ¥5,000 to let people past the security gate. (for +1) Would Bobby Jones take and honr a bribe for ¥1,000 to let people past the gate (for an additional +1), etc to refine the amount. However you could say each of those is sufficently different to reset the penalty. 'Well something bad happen to me this week" Is a good scyring: While it cant predict the actual future (predictions have the habit of being both self-defeating and self-fufilling), YOu would get a good indication if somebody was directly planning on attacking you and / or were expecting significant danger. A week later though the situation has very signficantly changes (the week you scryed no longer exists) and you would not be at a +1 penalty. (IMO) The subject it the person being divined: The situation is going into the dragon's lair. When that situation changes suffiecntly: Different lair, he modifies the lair adding new doors, etc then it reset. Doesnt matter if the question is: Whats behind door number one? Whats behind door number two? or Whats behind door number 9,999,9999? Each of those the situation is the dragons lair. Change that situation and reset the penalty. Also you have NEVER addressed and always ignore the fact that the rules explictly state: NO HARD INFORMATION WILL BE GIVEN ... things are expressed in symbolism and metaphor. It is great for finding out if there is a 'trap' in the room. It is great for finding out if that security code you found on the 'trix is accurate.. It will not give you a floorplan. |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:49 PM
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#269
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Frank: Dragons are long term creatures, you men seriously the Dragon wouldnt spend 18 karam to make the ward permenant and take the drain ONCE in a million years. Ok an attacking dragon might also be able to punch through the wards.. and break them so once, every few thousand years... (but you get warning of the attacking dragon... you bit I would take the drain once) Also if we are going RAW (not common sense and/or GM house ruling). Can you tell my why the 'lodge' approach wont work.
1 day to make a lodge rating 1 (and 500 ¥) 1 day to imrpove the lodge to rating 2 (and ¥500) 1 day to imrpove the lodge to rating 3 (and ¥500) ... 1 day to imrpove the lodge to rating 5 (and ¥500) 50 days and 50*500 ¥25,000 and nothing is every getting past his mana barrier around his home... undeground unless you are regularly pushing through mother earth, it is unlikely you would ever see the glow ... though you sure as hell wouldnt notice when you hit it... Now Talia's example is taking a dragon from the realm of impressive to a grunt' by denying prime runner status (and thus karma of its own eve it the laughable 'inferiour 80% of the players) ... if not a prime runner then by the rules it is a grunt, doesnt get individual edge (even if a Lt.) Giving players 200 karma and NOTHING to the dragon is like saying the players get a THOR station and the target gets a signal 12 RFID tag permenatly embedded into his brain... (no challange). If the dragon has ANY porition of 200 karma then he would do it... and spend karma to make it permenant. |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:53 PM
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#270
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Frank:
As a sideline I also have a question. You seem to have major problems with the dragon spending karma and risking its life once to make a defendable lair. (serious warding on it) YET: you raise no objections to the divination equals infailable smuggled camera into the lair and perfectly map out every defense, trap, security feature, etc.... (all within a day or so... Who the F' does legwork... higher a diviner and win) |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:05 PM
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#271
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Now you know. Why are you still doing legwork? That's what my PCs do, except the Diviner is a PC. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:09 PM
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#272
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Toturi: How do you get around by the rules: 'No hard facts'.... The rules repeatidly make it clear divination is not the give all answer, it is an additional source but gives no hard facts and is covered with symoblism and metaphor. You can not divine the security code to disarm the bomb... you CAN divine the ruesults of entering security code XYZ.... (good for verifying what legwork has provided) ... but divination can provide no HARD FACTS1.... |
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Jul 20 2007, 04:15 PM
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#273
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Aha! Now to make my lead sorcery guy different from the rest.
The sorcery leader advances slightly different. [ Spoiler ] Why does he go for the magic 11? Well, because, the test for ritual sorcery is 12hrs - Leaders magic. Minimum of one hour. 12 - 11 = 1 hour. The test to detect it is 20-force beginning one hour after the ritual starts. So, the ritual starts, one spirit is guarding the whole team. Still force 20 slay (dragon). All the other 11 spirits are aiding sorcery. (I couldn't find anywhere that said only 1 spirit may aid sorcery per spell). So, polls for sorcery members are as follows: -6 sympathetic + Magic + Ritual Spellcasting + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit 1 + Spirit 2 (One man doesn't get spirit 2, as his is busy guarding). -6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 + 6 = 37 -6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31 They use edge to reroll failures, 4 of them average 13 hits, with 24 rerolled, for another 8. 21 hits for them. Last guy gets 10 hits, reroll of 21 dice, gets 7 more, total 17 for him 21 * 4 + 17 = 101 for their casting. Leader goes, he gets the same kind of pool. With 11 magic and no spellcasting focus. Plus edge for exploding 6's, and removing the force limiter. -6 + 11 + 9 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 6= 34 + 101 = 135 dice. Average of 45 hits. 22 of which explode for another 7. Total of 52 hits. It resolves in one hour, which is when the dragon would get a check to know it was coming. Dragon gets basic willpower (and counterspelling if its so paranoid to constantly be counterspelling itself) (plus edge, if we feel like being nice) for a 24 dice pool. Average 8 hits. 4 explode for 1 more. 9 hits total. 52 - 9 = 43. 43 Net hits, + 20 for force of spell = 63P for the dragon. Done deal. |
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Jul 20 2007, 04:17 PM
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#274
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
All right: since it seems not to be self evident:
NO INFINITE LOOPS (This means you, Vaevictis.) I know there are some loopholes in the rules. I'm much too tired to go hunting for each and every logic hole. If you want a challenge, you'll keep it a challenge and work within the spirit of a challenge. If you just want to break the rules, go open a new thread. Think of it this way: if you can break the system, so can the dragon -- and it's had much, much more lifetime in which to figure out how to do so. |
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Jul 20 2007, 04:25 PM
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#275
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the infinite spirit loop has been closed actually. remote service unbound spirits count as your 1 unbound spirit, iirc.
and tarantula, what it *says* is that a given dicepool can only have 1 focus added at a time. each caster, therefore, can use a power focus (and heck, why not a spellcasting focus to resist drain, too?) on their test, which gives teamwork test dice to the leader, but the focus itself is not being added to the leader's dice pool, it's simply adding to the supporting magician's ability to help. |
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