 [Augmentation] Genetic Bioware |
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 Sep 23 2007, 10:42 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646  |
Building off a slight reference in the Animal Features Transgenic Alteration, "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration ..." (p. 93, Augmentation)
So, while this means you could conceivably, depending on your interpretation, get a Rating 3 Synaptic Booster for free via Genetic Heritage, I have a more general question: Since geneware is not available in "grades", when you take bioware as geneware, what bioware "grade" is used for the essence/cost? My first reaction was the Type-O, but considering the nature of geneware, I would say Delta is most logical (though makes the above malarky more heinous). What do you think? As an aside, what's going on with the horned woman's hand on page 69? :eek: |
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Sep 23 2007, 11:22 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
What can be done via Transgenetic Alteration-Biotech, is up to each GM.
Now that I have said that. :) From my understanding of RAW, you could get (GM approved) synaptic accelerators as such, but the Availability Rating for the Biotech-Transgenetic Alteration "should" still apply. Now if the player has a excellant back story for such, listen to it before you make a decision. Genetic Heritage from what I have read, is more for things like Genetic Optimization treatments, or some of the EPE wares. Yes I understand getting Synaptic Accelerators 3 for a mere 5 BP's can be enticing. Typically Bioware Grades only Alpha can be "bought" at RAW character creation, but what the GM allows is up to him/her. Technically Type O quality does not apply to Geneware, so if you have Geneware Bioware, then no it does not apply. But it would apply if you were just buying the Non Cultured Bioware as Bioware. FYI Cultured Bioware ie synaptic accelerators are not eligible for the essence reduction that Type O Quality gives. If a character has Type O quality, any basic bioware is Delta grade, so having Delta grade Bioware installed, gains them no essence reduction. WMS |
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Sep 23 2007, 11:53 PM
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#3
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Since it doesn't come in 'Grades', you would use the Standard Essence cost. As for the rest, Transgenic Alteration is supposed to only provide functioning Bioware versions of animal features like cat's eyes and quills, and things hat can readily be found in nature (in order to splice the animal's genes into the subject). |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:25 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Bioware as geneware appears under Animal Features Transgenics which has an availability of 10. Whether this overrides the Bioware's standard availability is up to the GM. However, since this is "purchased" with BPs, not nuyen, the availability may not apply.
10 BP (50,000 :nuyen: ), but I was just trying to find the most expensive benefit for the points to measure the balance. I suppose you could also use it to get an increased life expectency (250k value).
Since there are no grades to geneware, the character would not have a choice, it would be whatever all geneware is. If all transgenic bioware is equivelant to deltaware, it may pose issues for characters purchasing it through the normal char gen system.
I was referring to Type-O (off the rack, x1 Essence Cost) grade bioware as opposed to Deltaware, not the Type-O positive quality.
It's not really clear if that's the intention for my books (1st printing), has that been stated/clarified in an erratum or in a section I missed?
It was my understanding that all bioware is potentially "readily found in nature". After all, how did they get the organ if not through transgenics? |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:34 AM
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#5
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm not going to get into this argument in yet another thread. There are already a couple on this very subject, one of which contains the developer's view on the matter, which I stated above.
As for the Genetech being considered Delta just because it doesn't have any Grades, that is just silly, in my opinion. If something doesn't come in Grades (which are modifications of a base cost), then logically the base cost would apply. |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:36 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Create some DNA sequences manually, then splice the new DNA into some stem cells from a typo O donor then grow the organ in a vat?
Thats a pretty viable way of creatig organs without involving any animals in the process. Growing organs in vats from donor cells and DNA splicing is explicitly possible. I'll agree with everyone else that the animal features clause is powered by GM fiat. All geneware is clearly basic at list price. Type O has been stated by Synner in the Augmentation errata thread, maybe they'd eventually do errata for it. However it clear that is the intention. Cultured bioware is already matched carefully to you by definition, so why would it get any extra benefit from type O, as the reason type O gives you a benefit is that off the rack bioware just happens to be carefully matched to you, because it actually came from a system exactly like yours. |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:42 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
It was not my intention to create redundant discussions. Would you mind linking the thread?
I was going to quibble about the nature of DNA and what is natural, but I just leave it at your statement. All bow before GM Fiat. :D |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:45 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i believe the original discussion is somewhere in the "augmentation Q&A" thread.
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Sep 24 2007, 01:45 AM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@Cabral
Search the Augmentation Q&A Thread for the keywords "Type O" and user name "Synner". There you will find the discussion/debate on Type O and Cultured Bioware. and yes it will be in a FAQ or errata, but not out yet. There is also a question in that Thread from Synner on Geneware and designing such. As for the grades of transgenetic alteration bioware, by RAW it does not state anything about it. Purchasing Synaptic Accelerator 3 has a genetic heritage, .........my understanding of RAW is avail rating apply only at character creation, after wards they only make gaining some 'wares more interesting ie longer etc. If the player has a back story that covers gaining such a Genetic Heritage at creation, go for it. It is your game or your GM's game. In my game I have lowered the avail rating of Adapsin to a 12, but for it to have its effect all your cyberware must have been installed in the last year, and have a back story for it. Most of the Transgenetic 'wares is/are well, lets say a side note, not meant/designed to be a major source of inexpensive 'wares. Again Developer Oppsy, not enough play testing INHO. :) WMS |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:49 AM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Redundant discussions aren't really a problem (for me at least :D). It's just that there is a current and on-going argument over this kind of stuff in this thread. I know there are a couple of other threads that contain tidbits about the matter, but this one is worth the read, and if you still have questions after reading that monstrosity, then feel free to add to it or ask here. :)
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Sep 24 2007, 01:53 AM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
*grins* Yeah, I kinda agree, but the entire thing is extremely ambigious with no clear resolution either way, and anything we say here is going to be ignored by any GM as 'Guys on the internet said I can do XYZ' is not going to fly as an argument. It really comes down to what you are willing to let someone get with 10 BP. I'd be fine with anything that cost up to about 80k nuyen, maybe a bit more for things that are very animal esque. :D |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:54 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
LOL. I guess I hadn't gotten far enough into that thread (though at the beginning Frank said it should be reasonable to apply to Type-O to cultured ware, implying delta cultured bioware exists.)
Well, off to some heavy reading. :) |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:59 AM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Delta Cultured Bioware does exist.
It is just that the Type O quality does not apply to Cultured Bioware (Frank was wrong in this rare instance :)). All Cyber and Bioware comes in grades that run from standard (the listed cost) through alpha, beta, and delta. Geneware does not have Grades, nor does Nanoware, although the cyber-nano-funky-stuff does comes in Grades just like normal cyber. |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:36 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Uhm ... what? How does that make sense (the type-O delta cultured Bio interaction, not Frank being wrong ;)) [edit: because that's what the quality says ... oops] Btw, thanks for the heads up, found the posts where Synner mentioned Delta Cultured Bioware and gave guidelines (which I don't like because it depends on your understanding of biology*) on transgenic bioware. Now, I just need to find something on transgenic being Type-O essence/price or Delta essence/price ... *I like Shadowrun as "thinking/educational" RPG - Using the original Seatle book to navigate Seatle, getting by in college classes using the Corporate Shadowfiles book as "Cliff's Notes". It's not that I want it D20'ed down for the mindless, but rather I wish it had a more solid guide which illustrates biological/genetic concepts or was balanced for all inherent (ie, non-symbionts) bioware. Actually, the problem isn't in the Transgenic Bioware, but rather the Genetic BP qualities. |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:40 AM
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#15
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Logically, if something has a listed cost (in this case Essence), and it is specifically stated that there are no grades to modify that cost, then the standard listed cost should apply. |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:48 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
But if you look at how the two acheive their biomodification:
Delta: the gland is genetically matched to the recepient and grown in a vat before implantation. Transgenic: The recipient is genetically modified to express the gland. IMO, the logical conclusion is that Transgenic is a "grade" above Delta (thus rationalizing why there are no "grades" of transgenics) where the essence cost and price is the same but the "implantation" time takes longer and the `ware is more integrated (same essence but less stress on the body). That interpretation makes the most sense to me I don't like the idea of putting delta bioware on the chargen table, especially with the genetic heritage and genecrafted qualities. |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:55 AM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You are right in that all geneware is matched to the specific body. That is just already factored into the (standard) Essence cost of Geneware.
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Sep 24 2007, 03:31 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Right, so if all transgenics are essentially deltagrade, they should have delta essence costs and prices.
Just to be clear, I am not stating that you could buy a delta grade version transgenic treatments, just that logically transgenic bioware should use the deltagrade essence costs and prices not the Type-O versions. As, I said the main problem with this is the genetic qualities, primarily Genetic Heritage. Perhaps the best way to fix it would be to have the BP cost scale with the price of the genetic boon. Perhaps 5 BP per 30k or 40k nuyen price (making it more efficient than paying for it normally. Even if you make it 1 BP per 5k nuyen, it's still advantageous if you will by maxing out your nuyen. Actually with the inherent boon (cost reduction of further mods), maybe 10 BP plus 5 BP per 25k -40k or so of nuyen price over say 50k - 100k would be fitting. |
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Sep 24 2007, 03:46 AM
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#19
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Look at it this way ... Geneware is already considered to use all of the tricks and techniques that are involved in making an implant into Deltaware. This is already included in the standard, basic price of the Geneware. It can't get any better, and really can't get any worse, so the base cost already takes all those variables into account ... at the standard cost. |
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Sep 24 2007, 05:18 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
I think we're talking around each other. I'm talking about transgenic bioware. Just the bioware. Ie, Cateyes. Type-O Cat Eyes are .1 Essence. Delta are .05 Essence. If you take the delta process and do it holistically so the gland creates less stress on the system of the recipient, you're saying it should cost the same as Type-O bioware (.1). I'm saying logically it should be essentially be deltaware (.05 essence) and priced accordingly. I am not saying you should be able to by standard, alpha, beta and delta versions of any transgenics. I am saying that the one and only version of transgenic bioware should logically be the delta bioware. (You can't buy the standard, alpha or beta transgenic bioware, only delta; the delta bioware is the "standard" bioware.) I'm saying that if you price the trangenic bioware as Type-O bioware, it doesn't make sense. It makes this cutting edge, ultra nifty version worse than anything but second hand bioware (standard bioware does not require months of down-time to install) with the minor perk that it's less stressful on your body (a perk victim to GM whim). I don't see any other logical interpretation ... only balance contradicts and only because of the genetic positive qualities. So, does that clear up my stance? (Or did you already understand it and disagree?) |
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Sep 24 2007, 05:23 AM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Transgenic Alteration (Bioware or not) is still Geneware (not Bioware), and falls under the rules for that tech.
The Bioware versions of the implants like Cat's Eyes and Quills are different from the Geneware versions. They produce the same effect, but go about attaining it in different manners. |
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Sep 24 2007, 05:40 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
The problem is essence is something we have no real measurement stick for. Loosing essence has no effects other than making you more prone to some mental disorders, and making you less magic.
Err.. k? So maybe geneware cats eyes are more damaging the delta grade bioware cats eyes, hence the full essence cost for geneware and half for the bioware: D edit: I can even come up with a rationale. They think magic is something in your genes - so screwing with them might have even bigger consequences than adding organs. |
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Sep 24 2007, 06:26 AM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@all
What Cabral is saying that since Geneware is basically grown from your own tissues, the essence impact should be close if not similar to essence impact of Deltaware. By RAW in Augmentation, they take tissues sampled then, force grown into the desired 'ware. Since in Geneware there is no surgery needed to implant the 'ware, the essence costs should be less. But in Geneware the process is entirely different at least by Synner and others statements. Geneware is introducing animal/alien DNA into a already living body, then "adjustments" are made during the process etc. That is what causes the essence loss, not merely the implantation of a chimera of tissues. The end results may be the same but the way to get there is totally different from delta bioware. I agree it is not perfect, but it does work after a fashion. It is a RPG, we have some limits on game play, like it or not. WMS |
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Sep 24 2007, 06:32 AM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Exactly. Different means to reach a similar end, but they are not necessarily equal. :) |
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Sep 25 2007, 05:07 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
That was my rationale for transgenic bioware not taking less essence than delta grade. My argument is that transgenic bioware should be erratted (errata-ed?) to say it has the same price and essence cost as delta grade bioware. This only causes a problem because of the genetic qualities which are flawed with or without this change. Since SR4, does not have varying durability of `ware based on its grade (as far as I can find), saying that transgenic bioware has the same Essence Cost and Price as Type-O bioware isn't as detrimental as it would've been in SR3. On a seperate note, should transgenic treatments have a chance of negating the Type-O quality? |
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