 Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons |
  |
 Nov 14 2007, 10:51 PM
Post
#176
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604  |
It depends the type of flak. LA is a soulless sprawl devoid of any good. SF is a left wing nutjob factory full of queers and liberals. Of course, both those statements are stereotypes, just like New York is full of assholes, Detroit is dirty blue-collar wasteland, Milwaukee is a beer-stained catch basin in the heartland of America, Kansas City is full of thieves and jackasses, Atlanta is the bland sprawl of the South, Orlando is a corporate wasteland full of old people and tourists, and don't even get me started on Texas... Really, it all depends on who you ask. Every place has its charm if you actually ignore the stereotypes and look at it with open eyes. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:52 PM
Post
#177
|
|||||
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
True spoken, dude. 8) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:53 PM
Post
#178
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Harrisburg, PA Member No.: 5,848 |
Dallas gets the most hate from football fans. Though that might be changing to Boston (or "New England" since a good bit of fans probably think that's a city.)
New Jersey as a whole gets pretty much dumped on in the Mid-Atlantic region. (Sometimes literally, as they import a lot of NYC's trash, or so I hear.) But this is from a guy who grew up near Philly, and now lives in Pittsburgh. So take it as you will. :grinbig: |
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:55 PM
Post
#179
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I agree; in fact, trolls not fitting in is a matter of de facto segregation, which is what I've been saying all along. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:59 PM
Post
#180
|
|||
|
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,568 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Absolutely, which is why there would have to be some external force to kick the community as a whole into change. The earthquake in NYC or the hypothesized massive refugee influx into Toronto would be two examples. Without that level of crisis, the status quo and existing prejudices/economics would prevail. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 11:14 PM
Post
#181
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
The other side of this is the idea of troll solidarity, which I'm not totally sold on. A troll from Beijing and a troll from Chicago aren't going to have much in common other than physical similarities. That can be a powerful force, but its the type of thing that can easily be overestimated by outsiders. One of the things I always liked about SR is the absence of a D&Dish "racial" identity. An elf has more in common with an ork from the same block than he does with an elf from the Tir, whether he'd care to admit it or not.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 11:17 PM
Post
#182
|
|
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
kinda curious if one were to look at how even in shadowrun most groups get together by their way of CLOTHING . . good clothed will stay together, the leather clad will stay together, the rubber clad will stay together . . and everyone else will stay faar away from them most of the time . . but at the same time your race does little to nothing in regards to that O.o
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 11:36 PM
Post
#183
|
|||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Absofuckinglutely. Occasionally some of the sourcebooks have made assumptions about the presence of some kind of shared racial identity, and it's totally preposterous. The whole founding of Tir Tairngire is implied to have occurred because 'elves needed to be elves in their own elven lands'. This only works if I assume the Tir Tairgire sourcebook is not an omnicient narrator. Why? Because some Sinsearach elf who spent all 20 of her years as a NAN member is going to have about as much in common with the 20 year old elf from Detroit who deals drugs as I have with some Slovak mercenary. Which is to say jack. Thankfully, I DO believe the Tir Tairngire book was written to be unreliable in that regard. It's the same deal with 'ork culture' in the more recent books. An ork in Ethiopia is fundamentally an african, just like an Ork from seattle is fundamentally an American. Just because they're both poor, oppressed by men with guns, and aren't averse to shanking you doesn't mean they share a culture. 's why I've always been careful to portray 'ork culture' in SR as largely a construction of corporate marketing teams, orksploitation media, and a small amount of shared culture via the matrix. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 12:18 AM
Post
#184
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 263 Joined: 18-October 03 From: Cal Free State Member No.: 5,734 |
It seems that the real reason behind the founding of both Tirs as more to do with building a power base for IE from the ED era when there was a racial identity than any real modern need. I agree that the actual shared identity based on race is more a marketing force than a reality in SR, though there is something to be said for the shared experiences caused by racism and class-ism in modern society. Two individuals from similar but separate cultures with a shared "deformity" in the eyes of their cultures might have a bond of similar upbringings, but whether they actually had anything to talk about after a few hours is doubtful. Still, such is the basis of many religious and cultural organizations in our modern world where belonging is a strong force against the alienation imposed by much of society. Edit to add: To add that up, I think troll policlubs are more likely than troll nations, though there might be an outside factor that would lead to troll communities, such as the building of a housing development of troll-sized houses by a corp like Evo. That could be the start of a troll neighborhood (similar to a chinatown in many major cities) which could create a troll racial identity for that localized area over a generation or two. I see this in the Seattle ork underground, for instance. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 12:27 AM
Post
#185
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Well, yes. We can assume the IEs wanted a strong economic, industrial, and military powerbase from which to operate and deliver their edicts. However, that ignores how it is they went about convincing the populace to join them. If some shmoe told me that because I should leave my family, my friends, and my home because I 'should be with people like myself', I'd probably laugh in his face. Especially when they told me my family specifically could NOT immigrate. Don't forget that in the early days of TT, it would be not just likely but almost certain that any emigre Elf would have been born of human parents.
On the other hand, if they told me I could have free land and a direct hand in the creation of a new nation-state, such as TT did, I'd be a lot less likely to laugh at them. Which I think is the real reason nationalism was driven home so heavily for the first few decades of TT's existence. In order to create a sense of shared experience and community, it would be necessary for the Council of Princes to create - from whole cloth, if needed - an 'elven culture' for the people to participate in. Trolls have never really had that, on the other hand. No immortal gave them ritual and (faux) history and a sense of continuity - for the most part, they're simply displaced freaks who have to find community amongs the other displaced freaks or people who are otherwise marginalized. Hell, outside of gang turf wars (Torgo vs Ancients), a disposessed Elf and a disposessed Troll are gonna have a lot more in common than a disposessed Troll and the corporate-employed Troll he meets on the subway. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 15 2007, 12:42 AM
Post
#186
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 263 Joined: 18-October 03 From: Cal Free State Member No.: 5,734 |
I totally agree about the Tir. That aside, the trolls do have 1 culture generating advantage that the races (other than orks) don't have: short life spans. This means that a change that normally takes many years to become enculturated in the larger human population could become "passed down for generations" to a troll community within about 90 years. By comparison, the elves had much more need to create a faux history, as elven generations take centuries to create true culture. Even the dispossessed street example elf and troll would probably have fairly different perspectives, as the elf could have been living on those streets for 40 years and it wouldn't even be a fraction of his projected lifespan (meaning he's still got a young body to deal with what the street throws at him), while the troll could conceivably be not much older than 30 and on the streets for 2 years and he'd be starting to have joint problems in the winter. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 01:35 AM
Post
#187
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Yup. Playing a troll PC in a campaign set in the JIS Occupation, I've been reminded of that. With good gaming by GM and player, that can be good flavor... same way that you also don't take the guy with Claustrophia along on the tunnel mission ("Joe, we really oughta have someone guard the tunnel entrance, can you stay upstairs for us?"), you don't take the guy with Sensitive Neural System on the Matrix run, you don't take the guy with Spirit Bane: Invae into the nest, and so forth. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 02:27 AM
Post
#188
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
I have not had that experience. I stand nudged towards a more clear and fair statement: I suspect that at this point, the moderators might be evaluating whether me locking horns with Doc Funk on the topic of average Troll CHA would be useful to the forum's purposes. I myself have no objection to other perspectives on that topic - and I am curious what you, Fortune, think the percentages might be, in your own campaign, in Missions, etc. But even without fear of Moderator Thor Shots, I think it's time for *me* to drop the topic. I'm relatively new here, and I don't want to get a rep as a troll. So to speak. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 15 2007, 02:43 AM
Post
#189
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Now that he mentions it, that term does seem a little racist. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 03:30 AM
Post
#190
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
Here's a question, given all the problems that trolls have... not the least of which is that 1 troll probably equals 3 men in terms of food costs! And that what would be a spacious luxury apartment for humans commanding a premium rent... they get fon the cheap for 'normal' cost?
We see certain mods which increase metabolism increase costs of living by 10%. Ironically the adept 'sustenance' power doens't decrease cost of living despite the adept only needing a single meal per day. But all in all, I'd think that trolls should automatically get a 25% cost of living increase over other races to reflect their higher rents, higher grocery bills at least. Another 'strike' against the troll is his lesser lifespan. Why am I going to sink valuable resources into training a troll when for the same cost I can pay to hire a stock human for that desk job, and work him for 10 more years return on investment? That would also pidgeonhole them towards low training brute labor jobs. (I'm assuming social security ponzi scheme has gone the way of the dodo... can you imagine the outcry from the orcs and trolls at the transfer payments to pay for elves and dwarves retiresments after age 70). Also, 40BP just to be a troll seems pretty undercosted for build points. You get 80BP worth of stat raises.. +1 reach, +1 armor, thermovision. For a few attributes with reduced minimums, 10 years less avg lifespan, and no extra cost penalties to raise them to 'average' (which is about all the street sam types char about anyhow). The only way to offset those benefits is with some SEVERE roleplay problems experienced by trolls, but here we see people arguing hard that there shouldn't be huge roleplay problems for trolls, and they should fit right into society w/ minimal issues outside those arising directly from their size. I could buy some of these argumnts if it took a dwarf 15BP per raise for reaction, a troll 15BP per raise for Int/log/cha/agi, orks for Cha/Log to reflect their reduced maximums, and a harder time bringing those attributes up to snuff (say 4x karma instead of 3x to raise). |
|
|
|
|
Nov 15 2007, 05:02 AM
Post
#191
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
I haven't noticed anyone arguing hard against roleplay challenges. I'm playing a troll PC and I expect DP penalties on most negotiations with non-goblins, plus DP penalties on interactions with orks and trolls who see the PC as a "pinky-lover" (aka non-human-hater). I expect that guns dropped by LoneStar will not be usable due to the trigger guard. I expect that "in this parking lot, surely we can escape in a stolen vehicle" is only viable my PC's in the back of a truck/van (with luck, he can run a fiberoptic cable to a dashboard rigging or Control port). I'm fine with Lifestyle costing more due to food needs and elbow room needs. (Oakland has "coffin hotel" rooms sized for trolls, at higher rates, but they smell as if pinky streetwalkers have been using them for double occupancy.) I'm fine with everyone else escapes out the window and oh damn, not an option for me. I'm fine with the PC having no "metarace community" option of emigrating to Tir nations, nor cashing in on the cachet of ubercool wizards and Tir Ghosts, nor becoming a full member of an ork gang, nor joining a wealthy and well-maintained dwarf warren. Those are good challenges. That is different from my arguing hard that those challenges are not, in SR4 6W, due to a majority of trolls having INT, LOG and CHA of 1. If they mostly have 2 or 3, the above challenges remain. Indeed, if trolls mostly have INT, LOG and CHA of 2 or 3, and all the non-goblins treat them *as if* they had mental 1s, then the roleplaying challenges get more intense. Cf. Jacky Robinson. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 05:29 AM
Post
#192
|
|||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
...why wouldn't you? I'd love to bring that guy along with me if I had to do a job on a nest! I just wouldn't stand very close to him. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 06:06 AM
Post
#193
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
And throw a tac nuke on him with a killswitch. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 15 2007, 07:09 AM
Post
#194
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Oh, you dumpshockers, such an eye for precise distinctions. I anticipated this response.
Don't take *a teammate whose survival is important to you*, who has Spirit Bane: Invae, into an Invae nest. If you have an expendable pawn with Spirit Bane: Invae, then sure, you won't have to outrun the vengeful invae after you nail the queen, you just have to outrun the expendable pawn. Tacnuke, maybe; pressurized bottle of insecticide with just enough of a demo charge to disperse it, usually cheaper and cleaner. Heck, put a flamethrower-style sprayer on it and tell him that's his weapon, and he'll willingly lug the economy-size bottle on his back. (Hm. As it happens, my troll PC is planning a bughunt. How does he go about finding some "poor, unfortunate soul" with Spirit Bane: Invae?) And by parallel, if you consider the troll on your team expendable, then by all means take her along on the Renraku extraction, then have her block the doorway while you escape, like Horatio at the bridge. After the Red Samurai manage to nickel-and-dime her ginormous damage track all the way down, they'll still have to get past her inert, unwieldy body. Since there's no troll (or even ork) on *their* team, they'll need an adept or a sammie (a Red Samurai sammie, that is, a non-street sam) with the STR to lift it. If they've seen the infamous Beached Whale Demolition video, they'll know not to try explosives. You'll be long gone by the time they figure out a solution. See what tactical options, and storylines, you lose if there are no trolls in your campaign setting? This is only the camel's nose in the door. If you accept a "Scroll of Genocide: T" in your campaign world, then next he'll persuade you to remove orks... then dwarves and elves... then all magic... and then SR will merge with Cyberpunk 2020. Martin Niemoller, represent! |
|
|
|
|
Nov 15 2007, 07:14 AM
Post
#195
|
|||||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
In my experience, the mods only step in, and generally with a warning first, if someone is insulting another poster, rather than that poster's arguments. So go ahead and drop the topic if you feel you have said all you can about it, but don't drop it because you are afraid of being argumentative. This board has seen much longer and more intense arguments over things such as running social skills vs. PCs, while still keeping the discourse relatively civil. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Nov 15 2007, 07:15 AM
Post
#196
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
There is such a thing? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 07:18 AM
Post
#197
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Speaking of which, in 6W 2070, after decades of armed struggle, has the Esperanto Liberation Front finally established a free and independent homeland, and if so, where? And did any descendants of Orlando Bloom go UGE as elves? Because that would be kinda funny. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 07:35 AM
Post
#198
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Yes. The face who actually has the agreement with Mr. Johnson. You need him, until you get paid. Opening run of my first SR campaign, four PCs and a GM-PC go on a run, we score some biotech loot, the GM-PC is the only one with a street doc contact, he brokers the sale, the doc pays some up front and promises more after she can analyse the goods, we split up for a few hours of downtime... and a mosquito spirit strike team, having tracked him by a bite of his blood taken during the run, finds him and kills him, after the street doc sends him the payment, and before he splits it five ways. Somehow we choose not to file a claim with his estate. Bugger! That was major cred! |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 15 2007, 08:47 AM
Post
#199
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You say that like it's a bad thing. . . |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 15 2007, 08:59 AM
Post
#200
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Wrong order. Trolls, then dwarves, then orks, but stop just before you get to the orks, because the real people still need someone to hate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th June 2026 - 03:34 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.