Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons Options

[Cheops]

[Stahlseele]

yeah, ED is kinda to SR what Episode 1 to 3 is to Star Wars . . more or less *g*

[Riley37]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaves_to_Armok_II:_Dwarf_Fortress

There are probably dwarven enclaves in many places.
Dwarf/Ork alliances might be uneasy but might benefit from synergies too.

Wow, that is so *not* LOTR, dwarf/ork alliances.

[Cain]

[martindv]

[Cheops]

[Lagomorph]

RE: size
Unfortunately, in the SR that I imagine, trolls are pretty much treated like handicapped, there's the one Troll booth at mchughs, a higher class restaraunt will have a few troll sized chairs and table. Municipal and new construction buildings have a seperate troll entrance. Old buildings are impossible for trolls to use safely (floors and walls not rated for their weight, height or width)

RE: removing from setting
Luckily most of my players don't play trolls, so they're pretty much NPC's. But it is unfortunate that they really don't get a spotlight once in a while. I think that it would be a pretty interesting community project to write up some fluff on trolls and troll society, but my writing and project management skills are zero, so I'm not going to step up to the plate about that one.

[Spike]

[Fortune]

[Adarael]

[Fortune]

[Jack Kain]

If Trolls never get the spotlight in your game blame the GM.

Instead of bitching about do they belong in SR or not why not turn this discussion into writing a place for them. Give them some spot light.
FACT: Trolls exist in shadowrun they fit into the world because the original creators of the game put them there.
Does Bioware belong in SR?
Does Nanoware?
How about magicians who use Intuition instead of logic or charisma.

You could remove Orks and port everything about them onto Trolls.
Both Trolls and Orks share a similar problem. Monstrous features. Orks may have the center stage of goblin rock but I'd say one could assume Trolls are a part of that to. To me Orks and Trolls are like cousins outcasts for many of the same reasons.


In the SR timeline wasn't King George the VII supposed to have been killed after he began changing into a troll.?
With out Trolls Goblinization would just be called Orkization.

FACT: Orxploitation includes is about both trolls and orks.

From wiki.dumpshock.com
Orxploitation is a fad and cultural phenomenon that surfaced in 2064, coinciding with the widespread use of Or’zet, the new “Ork language.� When Ork rockers such as CrimeTime and Orxanne started incorporating the nascent language into their lyrics, the popularity of Ork rockers and Ork bands skyrocketed. The media corporations were quick to pick up on this trend, and started hiring and producing Ork and Troll music wholesale, saturating the market with both goblin rockers and Or’zet “enhanced� music. In 2064, nine of the top ten albums of that year were made by Ork rockers and bands. During this time, the amount of tusk and fang operations also increased, both due to cosmetic styling and the fact that Or’zet is difficult to pronounce without the natural tusks of an Ork or Troll, leading to the creation of the new rabid fanboy, the “ork poser.�

Now lets look on whats written about the "Ork" Language
also taken from wiki.dumpshock
Or'zet is uniquely suited to the dense jaw and throat structure of Orks and Trolls, incorporating deeper, gutteral sounds. Also, pronounciation is difficult without tusks. Thus, it is difficult to correctly speak the language for those who are not Orks or Trolls.

I think it is worthy of note that Or'zets is uniquely suited for both Orks AND Trolls.

Now how rare are trolls, I get the impression you guys think there like one in million. THERE NOT!.
In Seattle they may say have only 2% of the 4,000,000 Population. Which is only 80,000.
But say Chicago has a Troll population of 11% thats a couple million trolls out of the whole 20 million.

[HappyDaze]

[mfb]

[Glyph]

[Dender]

I played a troll in a denver game (denver, for those of you who haven't read bug city, is descibed by the people living in Chicago as weird.)

He was every bit the urban survivalist. Almost "Lotek", cept for just enough cyber to keep him alive and dangerous. But I had no misconceptions. He did not fit in polite society. When he went to bars, he stood. When the team ran boarders, he was sprawled in the back of the van or hoofing it through the sewers. And when there was a fight, he was expected to lead the charge through the door. (actually, was usually expected to lead the charge through a window or wall, but thats neither here nor there really). And he was smart for a troll.

Smart. For a troll. Things that need to be remembered.

Trolls, as I see them, were built so that they DO NOT FIT in the world. Literally. Go out, find someone over 6' 6". Ask them if they've considered getting a Ford Focus. People these days who weigh 300+ lbs barely fit into society, despite the high rate of obesity. Double that, and you approach a troll's level of mass. This is not as callous or mean as it may seem, this is coming from having a family member of that weight class who expressed these issues. Chairs break, people stare and treat you differently (even friends and family), stuff doesn't fit you, and the stuff that does fit usually looks stupid or is hard to find/expensive.

Its something that a GM can and should play up. That the "drawbacks" of playing a hulking death machine are that everyone expects you to be a deathmachine, that there generally WON'T be a seat available for you at Stuffer Shack, and that people will get pissed if they have to ride in an elevator with you. If the RP aspects aren't enough for you as a GM, add on an availability modifier and/or a notoriety modifier for being a troll. But if you're going to go there, consider adding in larger "troll sized" weapons. My personal favorite is the bear hunters side arm.

The stereotype that a Badass Combat Troll always rides a big mean ol' bike or a truck isn't just a convenient stereotype. Its cause they can't get their fat asses into most cars!

And i still say "troll modified pistol" does not just mean tearing out the trigger guard.

[Cain]

[Tarantula]

Again, you need to almost double their weight, and add another foot or two on top of how tall they were. Not to mention nearly double width too.

[Cain]

Again, Andre the Giant. He might have been short for a troll, but he was nearly the right weight, and probably close to the right width. One of the most suprising things about him was that he never complained about things neing too small; at least not to anyone who recorded things about him.

[DTFarstar]

I am personally 6'6-6'8(I've got spine problems and on bad days hunch alot. Developed when I was younger and wandered around hunching so I wouldn't seem quite so freakishly tall and always looking down so I didn't step on or kick someone- no I'm not kidding, when you are a foot and a half taller than someone and you are looking directly ahead ) I don't ride in cars much, I have to duck under alot of doorways and I've gotten hit in the head with ceiling fans more times than I care to count. It is annoying, and in smaller buildings my shoulder do brush the walls and I've had to turn sideways to walk through a door before. It is kind of annoying, but it's just like. Generally if you are big, you've been big your whole life and it is just kind of the way of the world.

Chris

[Kyoto Kid]

[Critias]

Fine. Then go make your own setting where Portland's in the NAN. No one's telling you not to, they're just letting you know that the changes you're suggesting really can affect the metaplot quite a bit. If you want to do it, do it. But understand and/or acknowledge it's a big change, not just some trivial hand-waving thing the way you initially made it sound.

[Kyoto Kid]

...if it's consistent within itself it is not mere "handwaving". It is a "what if", an experiment to see how the world would be different. As long as the players understand and accept the setting, there is no issue. I have been in several original "non canon" campaigns and even ran a few, both in SR and in other game systems, which have been highly successful. Yes it is a big change but therein is the challenge.

...it's only a bloody game.

...further debate on this issue should be relegated to PMs

[Critias]

Oh no, bold text!

You're the one being defensive. Again -- no one's saying don't do it. No one, to be honest, probably cares very much. Honest. Alternate settings are cool, whether you're talking comics or RPG campaigns. I created one where all this crud went down in WWII, personally. Seriously.

Make it, if you want to make it. Folks were just letting you know how deep some of the roots of the IE/GD metaplot are, that's all, and that they go waaaaay back even into the "golden era" of SR1 (so you'd have to comb through even stuff like published adventures, to make sure you didn't hit any snags during the setting-change, and cause a snarl in the time/space continuum or whatever). No one's telling you not to do it (I'm sure lots of us would like to read what you cooked up), or anything. They were just being informative, so you'd know what a big job it would be to remove all those IE/GD machinations, many of which hinge on the Tir.

[DTFarstar]

Oh, by the by, I'm not skinny, but for someone who is 6'6 or 6'8 and barrel chested, you know broad shoulders all that. 300 pounds really isn't much. I mean again, I'm not skinny, but I'm not body builder either, and the only way I ever dropped below 300 pounds was starving myself to the point that I lost muscle mass. The BMI is bullshit beyond very average sizes. It doesn't scale well. Not only do I have alot more bone- thicker than average as well to deal with the extra weight strain.(Bones DO reinforce themselves in response to stress) Bigger bones means longer thicker muscles needed to control them. It all adds up. I would guesstimate that a healthy weight for me should I stay at the same level of muscle mass would be around 295-290. 20-25 pounds below what I am. Yet according to the BMI I am morbidly obese. So, they really don't have to be as wide as you think, just proportional, to reach that mass.

Chris