Whatever Happened...., to Tir Tairngire? Options

[Fuchs]

If they are little things, then they can be adjusted one way or the other. It's not as if the attitude towards humans could shift a lot in a few years, for example - plenty of historical examples.

I guess I am simply more willing to say "ok, 1 year later, things changed a bit, like this..."

[Fortune]

So it wouldn't matter to you if you set up a country to feel like say, 1980's Japan, and ran the campaign that way for 4 or 5 years, then a sourcebook comes out saying, 'oh yeah, the country has been similar to a multicultural Canada in nature all this time'? Weird. We have totally different ideas on what makes a good game then.

[the_dunner]

I'm guessing you don't read many comics, Fortune? Retroactive Continuity has been well established and accepted in that medium for at least 20 years. It may not be an ideal solution, but if it's good enough for that industry, I'm certainly comfortable using it in my home game sessions. YMMV, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Retconning is the devil.

[Particle_Beam]

The devil controls Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

[Kyoto Kid]

...having not even made it to the last page of this thread, I feel Critias has made some valid points. Now, personally I like to design my own campaign with it's own unique brand of colour but agreed, that is not everyone's pot of Earl Grey. However given this, even I still like to have some kind of a basic foundation to work from.

When I set up my RiS campaign, there was pretty much no information on the state of affairs on the Balkans save for the region being alluded to as a "Mercenary's Playground". I took what I could glean for the basic framework from several sources: the sparse notes on the region in SoE, the "Red Star Rising" chapter in SoA and The "Ten Most Wanted Criminals" section from SOTA 2064 (the terrorist attack by Musawi on the Balkan Peace Talks in the summer of '63) yet still saw I that had pretty much a blank slate to work with. OK fine, I had a "creative" out there. Now, what would have happened if say Feral Cities came out after we were several sessions deep into the campaign and all of a sudden there was the Sarajevo Enclave along with background on the Balkan political scene all nicely written out. All of a sudden the players would have gone, "No wait a minute, Serbia can't be a tin pot dictatorship bent on controlling the region - it says so right here on page 58." This is exactly what happened in my former TT campaign when the TT setting book was released and several of the players acquired it.

In our current gaming group, we are discussing the idea of allowing characters to bridge form one campaign to the other as we swap GM duties. This isn't much different than being involved in an online campaign as the "world" must remain consistent between all the GMs. Now at the moment, I am sort of ambivalent about it, however it does have a few attractive points. The first and foremost of these (seeing as we play on an every two weeks interval) is that it would allow players to see their characters to develop and grow at a more reasonable rate (particularly important for any awakened characters). Alas I am rather burnt out on Seattle which is the location the other GMs are interested in using (after 18 years of playing/GM-ing SR, the metroplex has become a bit "long in the tooth" for me). However, Portland is not that far away (what, maybe about an hour by maglev or 25 min by commuter/smuggler plane) so in this case even a two city campaign base could still work, again as long as there is consistency in the overall setting and interpretation of the rules.

Hence, should we decide to go this way, it is all the more important that I as a GM have a solid canon based foundation to work from. This way, if one of the other GMs wishes to set a run in Portland he should just need pick up the book rather than try and "prybar" it into my own "personal little vision" of the TT, because that is all we have to work with.

Finally, house ruling may be fine and all when everyone in the group agrees on it but when it becomes more prevalent than the actual rules as presented (including any tweaks suggested by the designers), then as Critias implies, yes, you are beginning to design your own game. Granted, we have adopted a couple HRs in our local group: the Blakkie Chargen Contact rule, and the Logic + Skill capped by Programme rating rule for Matrix actions. However, both of these have received some acceptance in the SR community at large (heck, the "Blakkie" rule is even included as an option in at least two of the Chargen spreadsheets/programmes).

...Oh and Frank I hear you on the Czech situation, considering that two of the nations where my heritage traces back to, Poland and Croatia, have both historically (and in SR canon) been doormats for other powers.

[JBlades]

So basically, the actual answer to find in this thread is that we'll probably get info on the whole Tir thing in Cities of Intrigue, which will come along when it gets here. Correct?

Whew, that was a lot of angry posts to read just for that... I need a beer.

[Kyoto Kid]

..yep

...and on needing that beer, count me in.

[Fuchs]

I just don't see that much of a difficulty to change a setting according to the latest news. Change, as Frank laid out, can occur rapidly. Give me 6 months, and some Suspension of disbelief, and the TIR can be a kingdom, or a republic.

[Malicant]

I don't like beer. Can I have a coke?

btw, people are afraid of change. Accepting the fact that something big as this can change in the blink of an eye is not something they are able to do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

...I think that's reading a little too far into it. Such upheavals can have a real effect on any given campaign you know, it can be somewhat irritating to have to throw out canon wholesale, after all. I mean, one of my former groups apparently ran games in Denver pre-Ghostwalker. Adjustments had to be made.

[Kyoto Kid]

...yeah, and had I just adopted the TT canon "as written" in the setting book, all the PCs would have become immediate candidates for Ehran's little hunts.

You see, back when the original TT setting book came out, it wasn't because there was some economic or political upheaval like the '64 Crash, it was because the designers were fleshing out more of the SR world beyond the Seattle Metroplex. In that light, it occurred (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ooc.gif) so to say. The book included it's own historical line which conflicted in a number of areas with the one I had written, again based on the meager notes presented in the core book. In my setting Portland was more of an open city, a showpeice and centre of commerce, not some "fourth fiddle" walled in concentration camp for the Tir's "undesirables". That alone was a pretty drastic change. Then there was the whole "elf über alles" thing that contradicted principles the nation was founded on. Again this was something not alluded to in the setting notes of the core rules.

So as Critias said, either I had invested some 20+$ in a book that I found useless - or, I had the choice of gutting my campaign. Considering a couple of the players had elf PCs, they naturally they glommed onto all the "good things" the book offered the characters and began taking issue with my setting. After a few more sessions I saw it just wasn't working so I took the second option above and closed the campaign.

[Malicant]

...I think that's reading a little too far into it. Such upheavals can have a real effect on any given campaign you know, it can be somewhat irritating to have to throw out canon wholesale, after all. I mean, one of my former groups apparently ran games in Denver pre-Ghostwalker. Adjustments had to be made.

Sure it sucks, but it's getting a crapload of heat and how many people right know are having a campaing that would be utterly destroyed by this? Hands up, please.

I don't expect much, so this is not "my game has been ruined" heat, but "wtf? but nobody told me" heat. It's the little brother of "Oh, no! A new edition is coming and it will destroy all" heat.

[Fortune]

I just don't see that much of a difficulty to change a setting according to the latest news. Change, as Frank laid out, can occur rapidly. Give me 6 months, and some Suspension of disbelief, and the TIR can be a kingdom, or a republic.

Even if I even remotely agreed with you, it's not a matter of changing the 'now'. It's a matter of chanaging the whole recent hstory of the place.

[Fuchs]

I can only say that I have been running a campaign for years, and the whole SR history did not come up very often, if at all. My runners are busy handling their lives in Miami. Now, I read somewhere that Gunderson, the corp that ran the place, was involved in an affair that led to Novatech troubles. I never read about it, and if I one day get the sourcebook it's mentioned in, I'll simply check how to adapt/mine it for ideas. Most likely, if I wanted changes, I'd play through the changes.

Fortunately, my players don't really try to nail me down on "but that's not what happened" - heck, we don't even have a fixed year we are playing in. "Somewhere past 2050" so far was precise enough for us.

Regarding the Tir, I am pretty much sure I could run a campaign there, and adapt whatever canon info came out, probably making the changes into the focus of a campaign arc. If that was not doable, then all it would take for me was a few years, maybe even less, of time to put the changes in - sort of "in the last few years since you were last in Tir, this happened".

[Whipstitch]

Sure it sucks, but it's getting a crapload of heat and how many people right know are having a campaing that would be utterly destroyed by this? Hands up, please.

I don't expect much, so this is not "my game has been ruined" heat, but "wtf? but nobody told me" heat. It's the little brother of "Oh, no! A new edition is coming and it will destroy all" heat.

*raises a hand* I don't have a campaign that's ruined, but I have a character background I worked on here for a game on the boards as well as several player backgrounds at my own table that were thrown for quite a bit of a loop by the changes since my players are basically west coast gunrunners, smugglers and Rinelle ke'Tesrae sympathizers. Now they're rebels without a cause, and all that. I don't really mind, actually, since we just shifted their motives to more profit oriented concerns since the release of Runner Havens, but what you perceive as to be exagerrations on the part of a few posters here is no reason to go calling the rest of us reactionary due to curiousity about the Tir, a setting which often has some crossover with Seattle events.

[Malicant]

So, you say your character was kicked in the groin, but not really and know his contacts still work, maybe even better? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Actually, I've about given up on the character background almost entirely. I'm probably going to drop out of consideration as a PC. Everytime I try to rehaul things I find another bit of information that makes it not quite work anymore. What does a revolutionary do after he wins? I don't really mind that much though, honestly, I just find your "People fear change!" statement hilariously reductive when several people here have concrete reasons for curiousity about the Tir.

[Fuchs]

Actually, I've about given up on the character background almost entirely. I'm probably going to drop out of consideration as a PC. Everytime I try to rehaul things I find another bit of information that makes it not quite work anymore. What does a revolutionary do after he wins?

Historically? Starting to kill the other revolutionaries, then set him/herself up as dictator.

[Whipstitch]

I'm mostly just curious about if it is mostly a puppet government or not. It's tough to say from the outside looking in. Honestly, I like the fact that this particular chunk of metaplot is being resolved one way or the other. It's just the waiting that sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

So, you say your character was kicked in the groin, but not really and know his contacts still work, maybe even better?

See, I don't get this 'screw the player' mentality at all. The games are starting present time, starting pretty much right now (ie in the past few months or so ... not long term stuff) and the political and social upheaval happened 6 or 7 years ago. How would the current day starting character, with ties to the Tir, not know what is going on, or be able to have current, reliable contacts right now at the start of the game?

[Fuchs]

Would it be that impossible for you to start the campaign pre-revolution, and assume the revolution happens when the new sourcebook comes out?

It's not as if the world will be changed at all if the Tir's a fascist state for a few years longer - or even notice. That way you can start the campaign, and all you have to do is postpone Lugh's fall until more information is available.

[Whipstitch]

I don't think anyone's argued that there are no work arounds. It's just not ideal. I consider this a minor problem. Attempting to convince me that the minor problem is even less of a problem than I already think it is both unlikely to happen and rather academic.

[Malicant]

... I just find your "People fear change!" statement hilariously reductive when several people here have concrete reasons for curiousity about the Tir.

It is true, on some level, and of course it is oversimplifying everything. But the concrete reasons tend to be as concrete as the question if my shoes match my haircut. As long as it is only character background the changes, if necessary, will hurt, but will not be devastating.

Seriously, I have a player whose character is an ex-Tir Paladin (don't ask). Sure, such a change will have an impact, but hey, whatever. We steal stuff no matter why we left our homes, right?

"You're a doctor. Deal with it." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[martindv]

I don't really mind that much though, honestly, I just find your "People fear change!" statement hilariously reductive when several people here have concrete reasons for curiousity about the Tir.

That would require reading posts and not being a jerk.

Martindv, what did that have to do with anything? Czech Republic was, a hundred years ago entirely within Austria-Hungary. And the regions inside it were called Bohemia, Silesia, Moravia, and Galacia. Neither "Czechia" nor "Slovakia" were at that time recognized even as regions.

And after a hundred years of politicking by locals and foreign powers there are six different countries which own various parts of Bohemia, Silesia, Moravia, and Galacia (Czech Republic, Austria, Republic of Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, and Ukraine).

So... larger foreign powers can... I don't see where you actually acknowledged, let alone answered my question.

What does it have to do with this discussion? Countries change. Yeah. Good to know. But that doesn't have anything to do with the poor plotting of an RPG storyline.

So when people say "Why wasn't there more foreshadowing for the Tir going down!? Waaah!" my sympathy is limited. Countries like that don't give a lot of warning before they go down.

Okay. Snark aside, that's good and well if you're taking political science. But this is a game storyline, and specifically a subplot involving a neighbor to the city that pretty much was the center of the universe in SR for more than fifteen years. This was a subplot that was introduced in, what, 2001 or 2002 after how many books set in and around Seattle? How many books, like Year of the Comet, that specifically dealt with world-changing events since Dunk was offed in 1996?

The only things that were mentioned before this huge retcon were about the Rite and Crater Lake. "Rite of Progression postponed. Some people are upset." It didn't say they were marching in the streets as one group forming the many-headed hydra that was the Rinelle or even suggest that was happening. And Crater Lake gets sealed was about Crater Lake being sealed. No insurgency and internal political upheavals and collapsing economies there.

It's bad writing, man. Just accept it. I mean, I read your comments about working for the line. What do you care about defending this nonsense after you took a giant steaming dump on the developers in the Feral Cities thread?

Someone mentioned retcons and comic books. Well, did you see the kind of outrage on the Internet that came with the One More Day retcon of Spider-Man? People were and still are pissed. And Joe Quesada just says "It's magic. It doesn't need to be explained." That's just the hackiest kind of hack nonsense that just makes the genre look bad. But at least it didn't come out of left field. They had a whole storyline even preceding the OMD four-part arc that explained it. JMS and Quesada didn't just add the "Brand New Day!" full-page to an issue of Amazing Spider-Man last winter where all of the sudden the public doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man, he's living with an alive and well Aunt May, there's no more marriage, no more organic webshooters and Harry's alive again without explanation.

That is pretty much what we got in System Failure. We flipped a page and all the sudden JMS' entire run on Amazing Spider-Man, the last ten years, never happened. And when the fans ask, "Hey, what happened" he and the Spider-Man office on up say "Eh... We'll get to it."

And did I mention that OMD, like the Tir doesn't affect everyone who doesn't read other comics? Oh, unless you read the Avengers titles. Or Thunderbolts. Or the Secret Invasion crossover that begins in April, or you read Civil War where Peter's unmasking and subsequent defection to Cap's side was a major plot point. Yeah, this stuff matters. Even if you don't run in the Tir or read Amazing Spider-Man.