Beginning Shadowrunner Needs Advice..., Chargen Theory 101? Options

[Delta56]

I had a thought come up about building Runners.

Subraces. Are there any plans for 4th to have them, or have people already ab libbed some house rules for them?

-D56

[Backgammon]

I had a thought come up about building Runners.

Subraces. Are there any plans for 4th to have them, or have people already ab libbed some house rules for them?

-D56

The new Companion book coming out will have rules for metavariant, yes.

[Rad]

Wow, lots of help here. (And a few cheeky slots: I'm not dealing with any dragons, omae.)

My connection glitched up somehow, and posted this thread twice--cut off the end on this one too. The other half's >here<, if someone could merge them, that would be wiz.

(And frag you about the lingo, I'm getting into character.)

My posts over there pretty much sum up the response I'd give here, so I won't repeat myself any more than I have--except to say that this is all definitely helping. I'd like to think I've got my head around the mechanics pretty well by now. I haven't played the game yet, but I've been going over the books for several months now. Mainly what concerned me was practical application. Numbers and theory only take you so far, so I wanted a better idea of how it really goes down on the table.

[masterofm]

John Q. Everyman depending on how you run it is a 160-250 bps just to be John Q. Everyman (the large difference between bps is mainly stat based.) 300 bp is more mid range security security and or top rated ganger. 350 is high end security, specialists, and some experts. 400 bp is a shadowrunner. I know the stats don't quite quite equal this, but unless you ultra hard cheese a character that is basically what it almost breaks down to. As a shadowrunner you are a cut above the rest. You are an elite in a world where no one cares how badass you are. Your fuked and you take crap gigs to get by even though they are probably are not worth your time, and the only reason they are is because you need to get your rep up and pad your resume enough where people will hire you for the crazy high end pay.

I think the biggest thing about shadowrun is and I will make this in caps is....


MAKE YOUR CHARACTER INTERESTING. If your character is just a badassed that is fine, but it seems like when you make a quirky character that is interesting when you bring it out to the table it adds to your game. I had a few badass characters, but I think it is all about making a person not an arctype. If you want to play an arctype play D&D or some Hero based game, but I now realize that SR is about interesting characters who fly through life with grit and attitude. Maybe it hurts them or helps them in the end... but you never know.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

Some more points:

While characters can start out with huge dice pools in certain areas, this doesn't always mean they are going to be ultra-specialists who can only do one thing. That sammie rolling 18 dice with his pistols will have plenty of build points left for other skills. Especially with Attributes contributing to about half of the dice pool - that sammie with his Agility of 7 will have an advantage in quite a few other skills.

I briefly touched on lateral advancement. Let me emphasize that having one of your skills at the maximum does not make you "best of the best". Even within your specialty - say, shooting things - there are many areas that can be improved. Raise your Reaction and dodge, to get out of the way of return fire. Raise your Body, to wear heavier armor and soak damage better. Improve your Intuition and perception skill, to avoid ambushes. Get the infiltration skill, to set ambushes of your own. Raise your other ranged skills, so that you are as good with your rifle as you are with your pistol. Get the hardware and armorer skills, so that you can make some minor tweaks and adjustments to your own guns. Learn unarmed combat, in case you are ever caught without your guns.

And that's just within your area! You can also learn to stare down gangers so you don't have to waste bullets on them, how to make evasive maneuvers on your tricked-out racing bike, how to do basic first aid, and so on. I admit that I don't like being able to start out at the hard cap in something, either. But it doesn't limit character advancement nearly as much as it seems to, at first.

[Cthulhudreams]

Characters in shadowrun naturally 'round out' over time. Samurai's learn how to do covert work with their monowhip in addition to being a shootist.

[Rad]

Hmm, I suppose this is what I get for calling myself a beginner.

I may not have played SR before, but I'm pretty old hat when it comes to RPG's, and don't need the training wheels "don't be a boring munchkin" peptalk. My concern was that the sample characters and mechanics seemed to imply that a certain level of munchkiness was the norm, and I was worried my interesting, quirky, non-maxed characters wouldn't be able to keep up. It's no fun playing an interesting character who's dead or otherwise useless.

I used the term "best of the best" somewhat facetiously, I am proficient enough in math to realize that you can crank dicepools a bit higher than that. Why some people assume "beginner" means "child" or "idiot" is beyond me.

What I'm trying to determine here, is the general theory behind character design in SR4. Clearly, it's different from other RPG's, with their "start out weak, fight weak enemies, and level up a few dozen times" approach. If there's less vertical improvement for the characters, the difficulty of the enemies is also likely to be pretty static--and if a generalist character has to go up against opponents balanced for the specialized sample characters, things could get ugly.

[masterofm]

No need to get a little snippy. For one thing on the forums it is hard to determine if the person posting is a child, or knows anything about the game what so ever.

Anyways having a general all around character is not bad, but it's not all that good in SR. It means that when a player rolled up at our table with a good all around mundane character who has some B&E, stealth, face, shooting, and a few other logic based skills it can be somewhat of a problem. In the end he is outfaced by the shaman, most of his logic skills the adept has him beat (as well as outstealthed and outgunned) He had some other things he could do, but in the end he was outclassed by every other character in the group. The biggest problem is that because of this his character although interesting gets very little screen time.

In the end since you say you know all this stuff I would say it really comes down to the people you play with and the GM. I mean you already know this I'm sure. You could make some crazy characters in D&D too. Even if they are still lvl 1 there were just some races or classes that were just better then say a human fighter. If everyone is rolling up high dice pool characters then go munchkin. If they are not then you might be able to get away with your more general character.

Generally I find 15-16 dice is a good hardcap for dice maxing. That is just how our table runs though.

[Glyph]

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the system really rewards specialization, in that you can have one of those big dice pools for your main thing, and still be well-rounded in other areas. It's actually the ones with broader skill sets, like hackers, that have a harder time being well-rounded. You spend so much just to get the skill groups that you need, that you don't have a lot of room for other areas.

To have an effective character, you can either choose a non-combat area where a high dice pool isn't so essential, or simply be good at that one thing, and well-rounded at everything else. But focus is good, because with an open build system, it is very easy to overgeneralize to the point of uselessness.

In a way, being a generalist is like being a specialist. A specialist who has decent physical Attributes and a high skill will do well, but someone who hard maxes things and tries to squeeze out that last die or two will wind up sacrificing too much in other areas. A generalist who has two or three areas of focus (such as stealthy sniper who is also a good field medic), along with essentials such as dodge, etiquette, and perception, will do well, but someone who tries to be proficient at too many things will spread himself too thin to be much good at any of them.

[Rad]

Sorry if I'm a bit irritable--I haven't had much sleep and some of this advice is striking me as "basic stuff that applies to any RPG whatsoever". The overall pros and cons of generalist vs specialist I get, what I've been specifically asking is where the cutoff point is in SR4, ie: what the minimum dicepools you need to be effective are. I can try to guess based on the mechanics of the game, but I'd rather go by the impressions of experienced players as to what has a shot and what doesn't.

Part of the problem is this thread got duplicated because of a glitch, so I'm no longer sure what info I've given in which thread.

To clarify, I'm basically going to be stuck filling the role of face and hacker in my first group, because I'm coming in late and the other players seem to have focused on combat-oriented characters.

I have a hard enough time cramming a character into 400bp without having to minmax and specialize more than I'm comfortable with, and I'm not willing to go the typical "combat liability" route that hackers and faces seem forced into, so I'm trying to find the best balance of three distinct areas--social, combat, and hacking. As a result, I need a better idea of what kind of dicepool is needed to be in any way effective in those areas.

I'm focusing primarily on his social abilities, with combat second (taking an "assist and don't get fragged" approach), and hacking handled largely through gear/agents/contacts who are much better at that sort of thing.

I've almost got a tentative build worked out, I'll post it for critique when I'm done. Probably tomorrow, after sleep. Forgot I'd only had 3 hrs last night--kinda snuck up on me.

[ElFenrir]

Well, again...''minimum effective DP'' sort of depends on the table. Since you are running with 400 BPs...Ill assume ''regular runner level''. Even then...there will be some disparity. See, our games run a little more upper-end...again, not uberpowered, but our high end is in the high teens(17+), our mids run around 9-11, and our lows 5-7. Ive had characters roll crappily on their 17 shooting dice only to keep rocking their 6 DP Negotations tests time and time again.

I would say...trying to think more average...shoot for 10-14 in your main. It's a large spread but there is wiggle room. Try 7-9 in secondary, and having 5 dice to throw around in a couple skills is nice, too. (Ask the GM again what DPs he's looking at.)

Keep in mind extra dice you can get. For example, your character, say, has an Intuition of 3, a bit above average in the SR world(in SR4, regardless of what the book says, that copy/paste chart is quite..not right. 2's are the average Joe stats, not 3's.) You could put a simple 2 in Perception(you might want that skill, everyone should get at least a point)...but Audio Enhancement 3 and Vision Enhancement 3 will give you 3 more dice for audio and visual perception tests. I don't call that min-maxing, I call that simply smart spending. You only have a certain amount of points, and a little minmaxing is never bad; especially since you want to basically hybrid hacker/face WITH someone who isn't a liability in combat. You'll have to scrape a bit. Smartlinks are a great way of tacking on an extra 2 dice for shooting. So your Agility 3 Pistols(Semi-Automatics) 2(+2) character will be rolling a cool 9 dice for cover fire, which is great. Reach on a melee weapon is nice; Blades(Axes) 1(+2), plus Agility 3, plus the Reach 2 of the axeis 8 dice to take care of himself in melee. If your Strength hovers around 3(say, an ork or even a human), that's 6P damage and plenty to take care of himself. Those two skills together at those ratings cost a grand total of 16 BP, and Agility 3 is only 20 BP. You just made yourself non-liable in combat(Body 3 and some armor to help also. Orks start with body 4.)

But it's possible here. Also remember...Program Rating goes into many hacking rolls...so that's part of your dice pool, rather than an Attribute. Picking up the electronics Group around 3 and then the three cracking skills at levels 4(maybe with a Specialization). Then you can either go seperate Influence skills with specializations...or the group(no Intimidation in that, so you might want that separate. A face being able to intimidate is also a good thing.)

It will be spread out a bit, but played around enough, you can get a respectable DP across the board; you won't be king in everything but you can, indeed, do those three things effectively. (IMO...I would divvy up the stats for this character nice and even, a good 3-4 spread.) Some ware can help with things like social tests(a some pheremones), and cerebral booster(for Logic).

EDIT: Misread something. In this case(face/combat/hacker in that order)...pick up the electronics/cracking groups lower(around 2 ish), and pick up more combat skills. I'd say 4/4/3/3 is a good physical spread, with 4/4/3/3 a good Mental spread for this guy(Body/Agility/Reaction/Strength and Charimsa/Intuition/Logic/Willpower.) Some muscle augmentation and toner will help well.

Just trade around the points and go a little heavier on the social skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Denicalis]

The point of the Shadowrun system is that it's flexible. Underline. Italics. Bold. Arrows. Flashing lights.

Like any game, you can min-max it if you want. If all you want to do is blow holes in people or toss a few fireballs, you can lean in that direction. It really depends on how your GM wants to run things.

I cap skills according to the group. If it's going to be a long term game, I'll make them start very average. Lightly trained, but not a killer combat squad or world class cracking crew. It allows for some advancement and makes the roleplay slightly more realistic.

The game has been set-up to be infinitely customizable. You'll see an endless parade of people on this board talking about their incredibly wiz-build with the epic skill levels and fantastic dice for combat, but in the end, players like that will never advance. Ever. They are what they are, and until they get killed off, they'll be the same one or two trick ponies. If that's what you want to play, more power to you, but I think it shows a rather distinct missing of the point.

[Rad]

[edit]

Yeah, I keep hearing that, Denicalis, but in practice I haven't found it to be all that flexible at chargen. If you'd read my initial posts you'd see that the entire point of this thread is that I don't want a minmaxed build, but the rules pretty much force you to--or else fall behind the standard set by the sample characters from the BBB.

[/edit]

Definitely some good ideas there...

...the smartlinked pistol thing I'm already doing. Also having him focus on electric weapons like sns ammo and shock gloves, since that -2 modifier for electrical damage is very nice and the other potential effects get even better in a big hurry. Don't know how that's going to work price-wise though.

I'd like to give him a reach weapon, but I'm strapped for skillpoints and unarmed is a must so he can defend himself sans equipment. Plus it fits the character.

Thought about going the 'ware route, but again just didn't seem to jive with the persona. Was going to use martial arts but I don't have arsenal yet so I went with adept since that can help pretty much all his areas in the long run.

Right now it's magic 2 with quick draw, counterattack, and probably some social boosters. Looking like I'll have to screw him on tech skills and make him an agent-using script kiddie, with contacts for backup/supplies. If I can find another negative quality to cram in there that doesn't seem cheap or counterproductive, I might be able to boost his tech skills a little more--but he's already got 25bp worth, and that seems to be pushing it.

The general view I have so far is that he uses full parry counterattacks in melee, and hides behind cover and uses his smartlink to take careful potshots with his pistol, using SnS ammo and shock gloves to quickly impair the enemy and either bring them down to a level he can handle or let the main combatants mop them up.

Magic is probably going to be a weakness for him unless I can invest in some anti-magic adept powers, but the team's got 2 shamans already so there should be some counterspelling going on.

[ElFenrir]

Adept will work well. Critical strike is only .25 per level, a level of that can help. (If you can, look at Arsenal. The MA rules are GREAT. 5 BP per level of a martial art, and you can pick one advantage per art per level. MAs are purchased as a Positive Quality, if you don't know that already. Maneuvers are 2 BPs each, and each level lets you pick 2. REALLY nice stuff.) Adept combined with Martial Arts is very good in the long run, but yeah...if you are strapped for BPs, your route seems good, too. I actually made a MA/Face before, totally comboed, and it was rather scary, to be honest(though he wasn't a tech.)

Electric is indeed dangerous in that game. (Hell, Elemental Strike is good, but it's half a magic point...with a magic 2 you might already be strapped there.)

[Ryu]

Cutoff levels depend on the skill.

One net hit is what you are going for in combat. Depends on your GM is not the only answer: a second IP beats almost everyone without one, an offensive DP higher than reaction+4 drives targets into full defense.

Social skills really depend on the GM, but unless you are facing an experienced negotiator, even 6 dice might work.

Technical skills mostly use extended tests, and extended tests can´t fail without optional rules, unless you mess things up with a critical glitch. I´d call it a 6+ again, unless we are talking the matrix. Then it is about (desired intrudeable rating)*3.

Physical skills depend on what you want to do - 6+ (with equipment) for climbing is really, really nice. Double-digit athletics pools open up interesting choices - consider the size of obstacles you can jump over.

[sunnyside]

Oh and a comment on character growth that I don't think is in here. While cyber can max your chars essence out fast Bioware leaves you a lot of room to grow because you'll have spent all your starting cash long before you're scratching the surface of how much bio/cyber you can fit in your char.

Also you may want to forgo getting some pieces (muscle toner) at chargen due to the availibility cap. Once you're in game you'd be able to install a higher rated system.

As for flaws I'd take more the Deadlands approach with them. Look at them as ways to make your character more interesting. I'd talk to the GM about it. What might they like on your character to add some flavor that they'd give you points for?

For example

-Lecherous
-An earlier affair has left you with four Orc kids back in the underground
-Owe someone a favor (and when that dragon comes calling you'll darn well pay up)
-reasons why you're in the shadows instead of making more working for a corp (Pedophiliac and you just can't shake it etc etc).

So on and so forth. Stuff that they'll keep out of the rulebooks if they're smart as the muchkins would abuse them. But a GM can clear.

[Rad]

Thanks for the advice everyone, but seriously, character persona and background is not a problem with me. If anything, I tend to overdo it in the depth department, which is part of why I want to make sure a character I put that much work into developing doesn't become dead/useless.

I haven't gone into depth here about this guy's personality or background, because I don't have time right now and that's not what I'm focusing on. Rest assured, the non-rules side of character development is where I'm at my best. If anything, the problem comes in trying to stat out the character to match his personality and background, and still have something that's functional in-game.

Quirks like not using enhancements "cuz the character doesn't like them", or picking weapons/armor/qualities/attributes based on the character's sense of style cause me no end of trouble in the crunch department.

Build-in-progress posted here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=706240

I go sleep. Bye.