Martial arts positive quality, 5-? BP Options

[Cain]

Thanks. I suppose you can have a GM that is so bad at character creation that even lifting those restraints and the additional BPs do not help him overcome his shortcomings.

Even if the GM is good, it's entirely possible for a character to be so maxed-out at chargen that additional BPs won't make a difference.

[Whipstitch]

I have to agree with Cain on this one.

Super human prime runners shouldn't be well, human. You might be able to make a cybered mage or a cyber adept that can go by the "standard" human rules and trounce an entire team of min-maxed runners, but even that's not terribly likely. It comes down to the simple rule of the Omni-Class limitation, an idea I first heard described in a D&D context oh so many moons ago: If you make a single character and give him all the same options and abilities as a Mage, Warrior, Rogue and Cleric, he still won't be able to defeat a coordinated team of the same characters simply because beyond a certain point there's only so many actions you can take at once and thus you really only just end up selecting the singular option that happens to be most applicable to the scenario. Quite simply, if you have enough dice and ammo to kill someone with a Streetline Special, it doesn't really matter how good you are with a katana; one win condition is as good as another. While this dynamic is a bit different in a skill system with gigantic dice pools, at the end of the day the greatest Combat Hacker on the planet will still have a hard time finding the extra dice to put him over the top against a top-notch Sammy and Hacker team that happens to be near their respective skill caps. Compounding this difficulty is the simple fact that he'll also find himself behind in total actions if he's not really careful.

[Tarantula]

Even if the GM is good, it's entirely possible for a character to be so maxed-out at chargen that additional BPs won't make a difference.

I think I've shown repeatedly, that a good character can always be made to utterly defeat another one if thats the intention.

[toturi]

Even if the GM is good, it's entirely possible for a character to be so maxed-out at chargen that additional BPs won't make a difference.

Maybe for the characters concepts that have a hard cap. Depending on whether you can use karma gen for Prime Runner NPCs, you might be able reach over if you have Resonance or Magic characters. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to ask the devs with regards on their intent for karma gen and Prime Runner NPCs.

[Tarantula]

Maybe for the characters concepts that have a hard cap. Depending on whether you can use karma gen for Prime Runner NPCs, you might be able reach for infinity if you have Resonance or Magic characters. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to ask the devs with regards on their intent for karma gen and Prime Runner NPCs.

The restrictions on chargen don't matter. So I'd say yes, you should be able to initiate your prime runner antagonists.

[Glyph]

I personally dislike the description of Super Prime Runner - if the runners meet a superior adversary, it should be a mastermind, or a large organization, or a group of fanatics - NOT some cartoonish end-of-level boss type who unrealistically no-sells a coordinated attack from the PCs.

[Whipstitch]

Agreed. Frankly, the mastermind behind most big plots is probably just some guy with decent social skills, high knowledge in Mafia/Corp/Whatever Politics and all his points sank into Contacts rather than even a min-maxed Face.

[Cain]

I think I've shown repeatedly, that a good character can always be made to utterly defeat another one if thats the intention.

Not without GM metagame cheese, it's not. Sometimes, sure, you'd be right. Always? Not without cheesing it.

I personally dislike the description of Super Prime Runner - if the runners meet a superior adversary, it should be a mastermind, or a large organization, or a group of fanatics - NOT some cartoonish end-of-level boss type who unrealistically no-sells a coordinated attack from the PCs.

I sort-of agree and I sort-of don't. While you're right that realistically, a superior adversary shouldn't be just another target, there's something satisfying about a tough battle with a powerful opponent. Maybe not the mastermind, but his best buddy? The teacher who betrayed you? There's lots of examples.

The point here is, if you're setting dice pools instead of BP's, you're setting up a more fair challenge. If you set up the NPC's defense pool based on the character's attack pools, you'll do a lot better for making things exciting.

[Tarantula]

Not without GM metagame cheese, it's not. Sometimes, sure, you'd be right. Always? Not without cheesing it.

Of course you would have to use the knowledge you had of your player's characters to design someone who could beat them. That was the point. If you know their stats, you can design someone who will beat them. Typically, this is just a sniper, but you can take it to other extremes too. (Mind control, techno w/machine sprites in ultra-combat drones, possession mage w/channeling, and so on).

[hyzmarca]

I personally dislike the description of Super Prime Runner - if the runners meet a superior adversary, it should be a mastermind, or a large organization, or a group of fanatics - NOT some cartoonish end-of-level boss type who unrealistically no-sells a coordinated attack from the PCs.

I think you're reading the Superhuman Prime Runner incorrectly. He isn't a dude with enough Body and armor to absorb a howitzer shell (unless you want to go in that direction). He's a guy who is very smart, physically able, and skilled with no obvious exploitable weaknesses who plays smart. It isn't a matter of him no-selling attacks so much as that you can't RPS him (Most magical characters are vulnerable to physical force while most physical characters are vulnerable to magic, for example). If he just stands there and takes hits you'll obliterate him, of course. But he isn't stupid enough to do that.
And he will be a mastermind, or more likely the mastermind's right hand. I'm thinking more like Mahogany from Midnight Meat Train. He was superhuman, but he was not invincible by a long shot. His greatest assets were stealth and skill.

Of course, you can just ignore all of that last sentence when I pull out Cyborg Hitler. Cyborg Hitler is a final boss, with flamethrowers and miniguns for arms.

[Glyph]

I was going by Cain's quote on Superhuman from the book, which was a pretty lame definition. Unless you're talking about Cyborg Hitler. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Who can also out-argue the pornomancer, because any time the pornomancer thinks he's won, it's "Godwin's Law! Godwin's Law!"

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Of course, you can just ignore all of that last sentence when I pull out Cyborg Hitler. Cyborg Hitler is a final boss, with flamethrowers and miniguns for arms.

Yeah, but don't forget that any resurrection of Hitler is just going to get exploded as soon as he steps into his super flying machine and get shot through the cockpit by a bazooka... We'll even get a nice little cut scene showing us how he explodes...

[damaleon]

And one question pertaining to the original post is answered, the recently released errata and sencond printing of Arsenal add "The maximum cumulative DV modifier possible is +3" to the description of the Martial Arts quality.