Absolutely necessary optional/house rules, Give me your list Options

[Falconer]

Muspellsheimr:
You have a bad track record on this... start citing chapter and verse for your exotic interpretations none of us have heard of before. IE: actually reading the book in detail. Or please don't post and lead people astray.

To take the basic example...
You have 2 essence worth of cyber. (including cyber hole if any)
You have 2 essence worth of bio. (including bio hole if any)
Your total essence is 3 = 6 - 2 - (2/2).

If either goes to 2.5, your new essence is still 2.5 == 6 - 2.5 - (2/2). The combined essence score still doesn't obviate the need to track both totals separately and doesn't care if you have a bio/cyber flip. I want a chapter and verse cite if you're going to argue that.

The game never makes you pick one as the great or lesser though they're equal. Technically neither is greater nor lesser as they're equal so neither would technically RAW qualify for preferential treatment. (EG: essence ends up being 2, not 3). Though no GM I've ever known has ever done that.

p128 augmentation has nothing to even infer your wierd handling of essence holes.


I quote:
"Essence Losses from cyberware and bioware are tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from Essence in full, with the other deducting at half."

It then even goes further and gives an example.
"For example, if a character has an Essence loss of 1.5 from cyberware and 2.5 from bioware, then the character's Essence is 6 - 2.5 (full bioware) - 0.75 (half cyberware), or 2.75."

It then even states... "Characters should keep track of both, as it's possible one can outpace the other as the character implants more cyber or bio into his body."

It doesn't say to keep track of one at half the other, it says to keep track of both, and the second sentence details how to calculate the characters essence at this moment. That text doesn't change in SR4a.


Look at the example... right there in the example... the Essence loss from cyber is stated outright as 1.5, Not as 0.75 which is the final effect it has on your essence score. Again, it's tracked at full cost. Any essence hole incurred would stay as part of the total cyber essence loss.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, except for a few key things.

1) The bioware Essence cost is increasing. It cannot be 'discounted' without a bioware hole, which you do not possess, so you suffer the full effects of this increase.

2) The Essence has already been lost from the cybernetic side, & is not restored.


What you are explaining Ornot is how it should work, and how it does with a single Essence Hole for both cybernetics & bioaugmentation, that applies whenever the what you have costs less than what you had. It may even be what was intended. But it is not RAW.

In the example I have been using, you have already lost the full 3 points of Essence to cybernetics. Just because the current cost is reduced to 1.5 does not mean you can ignore the remaining 1.5. It cannot be applied as a discount to bioware, whether it's a hole or not, & your bioware cost has just increased by another 1.5 Essence, thus, the death of the subject.

Please Cite your references...
It is not as clear cut as you would have us believe, as a good number of people disagree with your assessment...
References to support your interpretation might help your argument out...

My two cents...

[Veggiesama]

So... what's the point of the essence hole rules anyway? It seems like an awful lot of work for who-knows-what kind of gain. I'm inclined to just ignore them, judging by the debate.

[eidolon]

Essence holes are important when replacing or upgrading implants. If a character replaces an implant with one of a higher grade, the new implant may well have a lower Essence Cost than the old one and the character will develop an Essence hole that she can fill with further augmentations. Likewise, upgrading an implant often increases its Essence Cost—characters might choose to remove another implant to create an Essence hole so she can upgrade her implant without losing more Essence.

That, in a nutshell. You don't get Essence back when you take out cyber (you would need Revitalization, AUG, p.88), so it's basically a reminder that you can fill in that "hole" before you start losing more Essence when you put new 'ware in.

Sketch (Essence 3) wants to upgrade one of his cyberarms. The current Essence Cost of his cyberarm is 1, and the Essence Cost for his upgraded arm will be 1.5. Sketch decides to remove his aluminum bone lacing (Essence Cost 1) along with his old cyberarm, leaving an Essence hole of 2 (1 + 1) for cyberware. He installs the new arm, but that only takes up 1.5 Essence, so he still has an Essence hole of 0.5. His Essence remains at 3, even though he currently only has 2.5 points of cyberware.

And yeah, you could pretty much ignore them. You can pretty much ignore anything if you don't want to use it in your games. I think the detailed 'ware rules are fun from a resource management and nitty-gritty-how-the-world-works perspective, but they never seem to come up in my games that often. Generally, in my experience people are almost always losing more Essence overall when they jockey their 'ware around. I'd be surprised if very many people are using this rule at all even if they would theoretically use it in their game.

And for Pete's sake, there's not really a debate about it. The Essence hole rules never come into play in the example Mus keeps giving. He may not like it, but that's how it is. You're not removing anything==no Essence hole. It doesn't get much simpler than the sentence

When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole”—a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants (see cyberware and Bioware, p. [86, SR4A]) and her current Essence.

And nowhere in figuring Essence cost when you're simply adding on something new do you ever remove anything. The Essence hole rules come into play if you remove ware. Period.

edit to add:

The game never makes you pick one as the great or lesser though they're equal. Technically neither is greater nor lesser as they're equal so neither would technically RAW qualify for preferential treatment.

Oh gods. Now we're going to get a wave of people arguing that you count the full value of both, since one isn't lower than the other. See what you've done?? You bastard!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Larme]

Please Cite your references...
It is not as clear cut as you would have us believe, as a good number of people disagree with your assessment...
References to support your interpretation might help your argument out...

My two cents...

Guys, can we let it go? He doesn't have a leg to stand on, and we know it. If he replies, it will be with the same baseless interpretation he's already given us, because there's no basis for it. We're just wasting time on this one, we should agree that he's wrong and move on. There's no need to try and coax him to stir up even more controversy on this topic, which I'm sure has already been litigated and re-litigated in countless other threads as it is.

[Laesin]

Guys, can we let it go? He doesn't have a leg to stand on, and we know it. If he replies, it will be with the same baseless interpretation he's already given us, because there's no basis for it. We're just wasting time on this one, we should agree that he's wrong and move on. There's no need to try and coax him to stir up even more controversy on this topic, which I'm sure has already been litigated and re-litigated in countless other threads as it is.

Not entirely without basis. As an example assume a character has bought 5.9 essence worth of cyberware. If he removes 2 points worth he has still got 3.9 points of cyberware and an essence hole of 2 points which can only be filled with more cyberware. If he then tries to buy 2 points of bioware it cannot be placed in the essence hole he gained and he is now at -.9 essence (6-5.9 cyber-2/1 bio) thus needing cybermancy to survive. Have I accurately stated your position Muspellsheimr? If I've missed some subtlety I apologise.

[Larme]

Not entirely without basis. As an example assume a character has bought 5.9 essence worth of cyberware. If he removes 2 points worth he has still got 3.9 points of cyberware and an essence hole of 2 points which can only be filled with more cyberware. If he then tries to buy 2 points of bioware it cannot be placed in the essence hole he gained and he is now at -.9 essence (6-5.9 cyber-2/1 bio) thus needing cybermancy to survive. Have I accurately stated your position Muspellsheimr? If I've missed some subtlety I apologise.

No, we all understand that. Essence holes mean that even when you take cyberware out, you don't get the essence back, that hole can only be filled with more cyber. What Mu has been failing to prove is that when your cyber essence is higher than your bio, and then you get more bio so the cyber is now the lowest, you create an essence hole because you regain 1/2 of your cyberware value. Based on that premise, he uses an example where you have 3.0 cyber and 3.1 bio, and a 1.5 essence hole, and you die. Which is wrong, because you only create essence holes by removing cyber, the rules are very specific on this. You never gain or lose essence by dividing one of your totals in half, this is a calculation that applies after totaling up your cyber and bio essence. You still have 3.0 of cyber and 3.1 of bio, you haven't gained or lost anything, you simply change the calculation for which one counts as half. His entire argument is based on a flawed premise which has no precedent whatsoever in the rules. Can we be done with this now? I mean seriously, this is like a fire with turds as the fuel. No more fuel please, it's really starting to stink.

[Laesin]

No, we all understand that. Essence holes mean that even when you take cyberware out, you don't get the essence back, that hole can only be filled with more cyber. What Mu has been failing to prove is that when your cyber essence is higher than your bio, and then you get more bio so the cyber is now the lowest, you create an essence hole because you regain 1/2 of your cyberware value. Based on that premise, he uses an example where you have 3.0 cyber and 3.1 bio, and a 1.5 essence hole, and you die. Which is wrong, because you only create essence holes by removing cyber, the rules are very specific on this. You never gain or lose essence by dividing one of your totals in half, this is a calculation that applies after totaling up your cyber and bio essence. You still have 3.0 of cyber and 3.1 of bio, you haven't gained or lost anything, you simply change the calculation for which one counts as half. His entire argument is based on a flawed premise which has no precedent whatsoever in the rules. Can we be done with this now? I mean seriously, this is like a fire with turds as the fuel. No more fuel please, it's really starting to stink.

Ah, my apologies, I'd failed to accurately parse the issue under discussion, I see no argument with the rules as you have stated them.

[silva]

What Mu has been failing to prove is that when your cyber essence is higher than your bio, and then you get more bio so the cyber is now the lowest, you create an essence hole

Mu what are you smoking man? hehe

[Writer]

Why wouldn't a mage do that? Essence and its loss is just as quantifiable and observable in game as other stats. A good Assensing Test (4 Hits) gives the mage the exact Essence score which ingame equates to the exact knowledge how affected the body is by foreign objects. If he does this test before and after an implant has been installed, he knows exactly what impact the implant has on the person. If there are studies with enough test subjects, you get a pretty good approximation. Especially for expensive treatments like cybermancy this is almost essential. Which corp would like to blow millions of ¥ on a cyberzombie, just to have the subject die on the table, because they tried to cram in 'ware worth 12.01 Essence.

But essenced loss is NOT quantifiable in scientific terms. It changes, depending on what other implants are affecting essence. A subject comes in for modifications. The mage sees that the subject has full Essence. The subject wants Cat's Eyes (E 0.1), and a Rating 2 Adrenal Pump (E 1.5), which comes out to an Essence loss of 1.60. The subject then has an arm replaced with a full cybernetic arm. From previous experience, the mage knows this costs 1 full point of Essence. However, after the surgery, the total loss is only 2.10. The full arm has only cost 0.50 Essence. Later, the subject gets a second arm replaced. The mage sees that the essence loss is now 2.80, which means the second arm cost 0.70 Essence. Eventually, we can assume that the mage will figure out the equation that all PLAYERS know. I don't think it is that exact, however. Shadowrun makes it clear that magic is NOT science, or scientific. We use the numbers for our (i.e. the players) game mechanics, but I see the in game affect as the surgeons consult with a mage, who then determines how the implants may affect the subject. They have more intuitive reasoning, backed by their experience and understanding of how magic works, but to say that the mage sees the Essence in terms of numbers is ridiculous.

Think of how Body is reduced to a single score. Science has methods of determining a persons health, but there is no one score. There are in fact, many, many scores, such as how long a person can hold their breath, their colesterol levels, family history, etc. The game mechanics boils it down to an easy to use abstract number, but that is all it really is. I don't see why Essence is any more precise. Even Strength, probably the least abstracted number, is still an abstraction. There are strong people who don't use their strength efficiently, while someone of lesser strength knows a better way to lift, pull, or shove the same weight.

Trying to argue how the exact equation used by players fits into the Shadowrun world is like trying to figure out how First Aid can heal magical drain. We can guess, but there is no way of knowing, because we can't test it. How much damage does a bullet do? It depends on Foot/pounds, velocity, deformation of the bullet, and where it hits the body, how the body reacts, how the injury is treated, and many other factors. All this is abstracted.

Let the game mechanics give a structure, but let the creativity describe the effects.

[Dakka Dakka]

Yes the stats are aproximations but so are several real life variables, which can effectively be used. If the Approximation is good enough for the rules why wouldn't it be good enough ingame? Of course you can describe Essence 5 differently if it is observed on a junkie, someone with Bioware or someone with a standard cybernetic limb. But nonetheless the observer knows that the observed impurities all mean that the subject has lost exactly one point of essence.

If it wasn't the developers intention to let the characters know the essence score of an assensed subject, why is the essence score supplied by a suffiently good roll? Why is there no indication in the books that this should not be obtainable information? If someone can perceive it, it is there, just like someone can see that a steel lynx is a wheeled vehicle with a remote controlled turret.

If essence is not scientifically measurable, why are there aura cameras? Why can you deduct the essence score from a picture taken with such a camera? I admit it is difficult, but possible.

[Stahlseele]

Magicians can, with a really good assensing test, tell EXACTLY how much essence something has left . . Yes, that means they get to say things like:"you are 1.25% away from being dead"

[ornot]

Of course, there's no real reason why a mage would describe it in terms of a score out of 6. They might consider it a percentage, or some other arbitrary number. I think to assume that all mages consider it to use the same meta-mechanic as we players do is rather dry.

Why can we not divorce mechanics from the story?

[Malachi]

EVERYONE gets to move on all 5 passes. It prevents silliness like a 1 Pass guy being able to get somewhere before the someone with more passes.

I think that is the RAI for movement.

Ironically enough, the two sides of this argument are actually generating the same result, just describing the mechanics differently.

[Writer]

Dakka Dakka, following your logic, a mage with the appropriate spell can tell that a person has taken exactly 3 boxes of damage, and they are probably suffering a penalty of -1. I'm not saying there isn't a categorical system for describing changes in Essence, or how much certain implants affect certain subjects, but I have trouble believing that it is as simple as our game mechanics.

Perceiving a change in Essence of .1, which approximately 1.7% change can be done with game mechanics, but describing it in game as a .1 essence loss seems, well, bland. Comparing the measurement of Essence in a body to the quantity of liquid in a 2 liter bottle is possible. I did some calculations and figure that each 2% difference in a 2 liter bottle is about 5mm (close to 0.2 inches). Estimating by eye whether someone has 500mL or 495mL maybe possible with training. (I don't know - anyone have an answer for that?)

I am not trying to say we shouldn't use game mechanic terminology in our in game language. It is easier for players to mix the two, speeding up game play and allowing the game to move forward. Originally, I was focusing more on the effects of individual implants and the different effects of cyberware and bioware, than on the relative differences between individuals. In game, it wouldn't be as simple as adding up a bunch of numbers, then using a simple calculation. In game mechanics, this is exactly what it is.

I am just pointing out that, becaues of the abstraction of the game system, we should not assume that in game reality mirrors the details of the mechanics. Yes, the players can agree there is one pistol on the table, and yes the mage can say the subject has exactly 3.0 essence, because he rolled well, but that doesn't translate into 1 full arm always equalling 1 full Essence point, or 16.67% of the total Essence in a person. The rules and the players may say it, but the mage probably wouldn't.

[Larme]

Well, it's not so much that the same ware has different impacts on essence. I think everyone in the science/magic community agrees that installing a cyberarm always has the same impact on a normal person. The issue is more like why don't you lose essence from having your arm chopped off? There's less body for the spirit to live in, so shouldn't there be less spirit? But for some reason, there isn't. I could cut off your arm and crudely jam a cyberarm into the hole, and you would not lose essence. But the minute I do microsurgery to attach the arm to your body and allow you to control it, you lose essence. I could also cut off your arm and replace it with a cloned arm that is 100% artificial because it's been cloned in a vat, and you wouldn't lose essence. So it's not even about hooking artificial things into the body. It is mystical, it is nonsensical. It is a game mechanic, it just works, deal with it! If you don't like how it defies explanation, you can replace it with whatever you want -- I'd suggest a Humanity system like CP2020 has. But people shouldn't pretend like essence is a problem with SR4. It's a legacy aspect of the system, it wouldn't be Shadowrun without essence, so we keep it even if the original idea behind it is deeply flawed. You gotta remember, it was invented in the 80's, and people were frickin' crazy back them.

[Writer]

You gotta remember, it was invented in the 80's, and people were frickin' crazy back them.

Yeah, because people are so much more sane, these days ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) [Editted for the sake of safety and reason!]

[eidolon]

Going to head this off at the pass. Do not get into a political wank that causes us to have to warn people and lock the thread. Thanks.

[Dakka Dakka]

@ Writer & Ornot: Ah, I think i misunderstood what you were trying to say. I agree with you that simply saying that a person has Essence 5 is bland. I thought you argued against a mage knowing that a person still has a certain percentage of his being left and can therefore install so and so much additional 'ware. I'm also for describing this fact more interstingly and, if the information is available, more quantitatively than "Damn you don't need a doctor, you need a mechanic!"

[Veggiesama]

Sweet. One of my threads almost got locked.

Let's see... we have covered quite a few topics already, but let me bring up a few we haven't touched on:

1. Edge recovery. I am making this an Essence + Charisma test, usable once per mission (or at most once per game session). You usually need 8 hours of rest to make this test. Edge is automatically recovered between missions.

2. Technomancer build costs! I like the Unwired rule about treating their CFs like spells. That saved me a LOT of points (10 CFs cost 20 BP, rather than 50 BP), which lets technos explore other non-techno areas.

3. Standardizing contacts. Contacts do not have messy stat blocks. All tests are made with 6 + Connection rating. When opposing the player, the contact rolls 6 + Connection vs player's Test + contact's Loyalty.

4. +1 IP for all. Came up in this thread.

5. Grenade and rocket blasts. It's a little more complicated than this, but essentially every character caught in a blast can roll Reaction + Edge. Each hit lets the character move 1m away before rolling damage resistance, but they also fall prone.

6. If the modified DV of an attack is less than or equal to the modified Armor, the defender chooses whether to suffer Physical or Stun damage, instead of suffering only Stun damage. This makes trolls fall unconscious from being stunned to death less often, and instead they can wrack up insane Wound penalties (like -6).

7. Only one Sprinting test allowed per Combat Turn.

8. Roll Agility + Gymnastics to avoid Interceptions, with a threshold equal to the number of foes you are trying to push past. Failure means you get attacked normally, while glitching means you fall prone. Gymnastics is not used for Full Defense tests.

9. Matrix program limitations. If you try to use a program with a rating that exceeds your Logic, you take a -2 penalty on the test.

10. Direct spells & riggers. If a rigger is jumped into a vehicle (or drone) while attacked by a Direct Combat spell, he can choose to ignore the Object Resistance Test and instead roll the vehicle's Body as an Opposed Test. This roll can be improved by a friendly magician's Counterspelling dice or the rigger's Edge dice. (I made this rule before Object Resistance was cranked to 5+/6+)

11. When jumped into a vehicle (or drone), all tests use the rigger's skill + the vehicle's Response or Sensor rating. If that vehicle attribute exceeds the rigger's Reaction or Intuition, respectively, apply a -2 penalty to the test. In addition, if your commlink's Response is lower than your vehicle's device rating, apply a -2 penalty to the test.

12. Armor penetration. If an attack has a positive AP, the bonus dice given to the defender cannot exceed the defender's current armor. For example, if you shoot flechette (+5 AP) at an opponent wearing a leather jacket (2 ballistic armor), he rolls Body + 4 to resist, not Body + 7.

13. Reverse the Concealability charts (i.e., SMGs are now -4 and light pistols are now +2). Higher is better. It makes more sense to get a bonus/penalty to your Palming test, because there's no reason that the searcher should "know" he's getting a penalty (in the case of players patting down NPCs).

14. Cyberlimbs. You ALWAYS round the attributes of your 4 limbs and torso. It's too much work to figure out what body parts you're using for each test, and open to too much argument. This way you just write a nice number on your character sheet and use that one, always.

[Stahlseele]

1. Edge recovery. I am making this an Essence + Charisma test, usable once per mission (or at most once per game session). You usually need 8 hours of rest to make this test. Edge is automatically recovered between missions.

seems to me like mundanes get the hose compared to mages again.

14. Cyberlimbs. You ALWAYS round the attributes of your 4 limbs and torso. It's too much work to figure out what body parts you're using for each test, and open to too much argument. This way you just write a nice number on your character sheet and use that one, always.

care to elaborate?

[The Mack]

seems to me like mundanes get the hose compared to mages again.

No, that would be an ESS + MAG test.

Last time I checked mundanes can have good CHA scores.

[Heath Robinson]

9. Matrix program limitations. If you try to use a program with a rating that exceeds your Logic, you take a -2 penalty on the test.

11. When jumped into a vehicle (or drone), all tests use the rigger's skill + the vehicle's Response or Sensor rating. If that vehicle attribute exceeds the rigger's Reaction or Intuition, respectively, apply a -2 penalty to the test. In addition, if your commlink's Response is lower than your vehicle's device rating, apply a -2 penalty to the test.

Would it be too hard to just use the lowest of the stat and program/vehicle-stat? As-is you upgrade your Sensor attribute and you start doing worse, then just as good then, finally, better. That's retarded.

No, that would be an ESS + MAG test.

Last time I checked mundanes can have good CHA scores.

And 0 Essence dice. It doesn't even make unwared mundanes useful, because they're still acting half as many times as the sam and Edge is an expendable resource, unlike enhancements.

[Veggiesama]

seems to me like mundanes get the hose compared to mages again.

Maybe. Some of my rules try to help out non-cybered or lightly cybered mundanes, so that was the intention of using Essence. Charisma is another under-represented score among non-faces and non-shamans, so I wanted a way to encourage a decent Charisma score for everyone.

Let me think. Roll Magic + Initiate rating if you're a mage/adept (Resonance for technos), or Essence + Charisma if you lack those qualities? That way most players would be in the ~5-6 dice pool range, I think.

care to elaborate?

From my house rules:

Cyberlimbs
* Cyberlimbs boost your augmented attribute rather than replace it.
* For Body, Strength, and Agility, take the sum of each limb (two arms, two legs) and torso attribute. When counting a real body part, use your character's actual attribute. Divide this sum by 5. Round this averaged value to the nearest whole number, which becomes your new augmented attribute.
o Ex. Tom Tinman has a cyberarm with Agility 6 installed. His unaugmented agility is 1, and he has Muscle Replacement (R1) installed, which improves all non-cybered body parts to 2. The Agility of his two regular legs (2+2), torso (2), and left arm (2) are added to the Agility of his right cyberarm (6) for a total of 14. Divide this by 5, and he ends up with 2.8, which rounds off to 3. Tom's Agility is 1(3). If he decides to replace his left arm with another Agility 6 cyberarm, his Agility would average out to be 3.6, or 1(4).

Also known as the "retarded defaults" rules. Would it be too hard to just use the lowest of the stat and program/vehicle-stat?

I'm not sure if that's a pejorative or a legitimate descriptor.

I figured someone with 2 Logic who buys a nice Edit 6 program should get some bang for the buck. Make it equivalent to an Edit 4.

Compare it to a soccer mom using Microsoft Word to make fliers. She won't know all the spiffy features, and what she makes will probably end up pretty terrible, but it will be light-years beyond what she can do in Microsoft Notepad

(i.e., she could probably figure out font sizes, colors, and pictures, even if she doesn't understand the complexities of table alignments and column wrapping... but if using Notepad, she'd be stuck with one font, one color, and no pictures)

[Draco18s]

I figured someone with 2 Logic who buys a nice Edit 6 program should get some bang for the buck. Make it equivalent to an Edit 4.

And Edit 3 is the same as Edit 1, whereas Edit 2 is Edit 2.

See the flaw? By going up a level you lose a die.