Fixing Direct Combat spells Options

[Andinel]

I've noticed that direct combat spells tend to own in any situation. A stunbolt spell can end a single person without much effort on the part of the magician casting it, and can be a little excessive in any given situation. Also, compared to Indirect Combat spells, there's almost no reason not to use entirely Direct spells.

My proposal is that the damage on Direct Combat spells should be reduced to (Force/2) to help alleviate some of the issues associated with balance here. I can't think of a reasonable way to give them nearly as good of a Damage Resistance test as Indirect spells get. It still prevents some of the silliness of DC spells without raping them too much, since a Force 5 stunbolt is often all it takes to end a single person, and with this rule it's still going to do significant hurt, just not at entirely the same level - and it'll be a little more fair to the people who have to deal with the spell.

[DireRadiant]

Heh.

You're welcome to use the myriad options to adjust the spells as you wish. There are even some in the rule book to use. And there are other variations that will be brought up in this thread.

Personally I don't think it's a problem so I don't need a solution.

[Malachi]

Or you can make their drain based on Force instead of Force/2.

[Kerenshara]

Or add 1 full point of Drain for each Hit applied as extra damage. Forces them to take the base force up.

Not that I think there's a problem.

You want proof against bullets? You get a bullet resistant vest.

You want proof against direct damage spells, get a team mage with good Counterspelling.

[Raizer]

I use the following houserules:

Spells (Drain)
• Direct Combat Spells get +1 Drain.
• Indirect Combat Spells get -1 Drain.
• All Stun Combat Spells get +1 Drain.
o This is in addition to the direct combat spell drain increase

[Kerenshara]

I use the following houserules:

Spells (Drain)
• Direct Combat Spells get +1 Drain.
• Indirect Combat Spells get -1 Drain.
• All Stun Combat Spells get +1 Drain.
o This is in addition to the direct combat spell drain increase

It's a great idea in principle. The problem is the indirect spells are inherently taxing because they're invoking Prime forces. It's neat for game balance, on the surface, but if you're also hitting the +Drain button on staging, then you're really hobbling magic.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

It's absurdly quick and easy to weaken direct combat spells to uselessness, even without any houserules: have a mage with: counterspelling (combat spells) 4 (6), and the mana static spell.

Not only will most combat spells fizzle, and those that don't will do weaker damage due to the background count force penalty, but he's pretty good at weakening "invulnerable" spirits to the point that a technomancer could give them a swirly.

[Meatbag]

Or add 1 full point of Drain for each Hit applied as extra damage. Forces them to take the base force up.

Not that I think there's a problem.

You want proof against bullets? You get a bullet resistant vest.

You want proof against direct damage spells, get a team mage with good Counterspelling.

The problem here is that mages, per RAW, are uncommon. It can get really contrived if every CorpSec squad has a wagemage or a spirit with Magical Guard, when the books say security mages are very seldom common.

[Kerenshara]

The problem here is that mages, per RAW, are uncommon. It can get really contrived if every CorpSec squad has a wagemage or a spirit with Magical Guard, when the books say security mages are very seldom common.

*smirks*

Wow, somebody who actually read that section. That's almost equally rare I think as mages themselves.

But, if the target is hard enough you expect the PCs to have to stretch a bit, that implys the corps would have thought to have a mage on duty, neh?

They aren't on every street corner or even at the corner local outreach office, but they ARE going to be present at any sort of moderately secure facility.

[Malachi]

It's absurdly quick and easy to weaken direct combat spells to uselessness, even without any houserules: have a mage with: counterspelling (combat spells) 4 (6), and the mana static spell.

Not only will most combat spells fizzle, and those that don't will do weaker damage due to the background count force penalty, but he's pretty good at weakening "invulnerable" spirits to the point that a technomancer could give them a swirly.

Yeah, I've heard of a few people that cut Mana Static because they thought it was too powerful. I was inclined to go that way too, at first, but then I said "Wait a minute..." Mana Static is a great "magical equalizer" spell and a great way to curb spellcasters gone wild and uber-spirits. A Bound Spirit of Man with Mana Static as a spell is probably a staple of inexpensive magical security. As soon as an enemy Magician shows up, the Spirit pops into the Physical in a pre-planned (probably critical, or chokepoint) location and pops its Mana Static spell. With Magic out of the equation, it's now down to bullets and no can argue that corp guards can bring a lot of those to bear...

[Kerrang]

You want proof against bullets? You get a bullet resistant vest.

You want proof against direct damage spells, get a team mage with good Counterspelling.

+1

I had large problems with how overpowered spells can be when I first started GMing SR4, and not just Direct Combat spells like you mention here, but also with Mental Manipulations (especially Control Thoughts). My problems ran more along the lines of the PCs dropping threats without breaking a sweat. As soon as the mage got to go (and he was usually the first), the combat was over.

I discovered that for the most part, it was just that I was not presenting an adequate challenge for my new group and their power gaming tendencies. Counterspelling is a necessity for any team or threat that would be expected to include a mage. If the threat you are presenting would not be expected to include a mage, there are other possibilities to think about as well, such as free spirits who have taken to protecting the locals. There are also several drugs which help to increase willpower which I make sure gangers and other low-lifes have on them (if they are not already juiced up before the action even starts). Once I started doing this kind of thing, the only spell I had to house rule was the aforementioned Control Thoughts, but that is a story for another thread.

[Bugfoxmaster]

Hehe... I'm the mage in the OP's campaign, so you can imagine I'm pretty edgy on this issue...
I personally like Raizer and Kerenshara's suggestions, because they don't put the spells in the dumpster (I know it supposedly doesn't, but it really feels like the spells become useless), but that figures. On the other hand, Malachi's would cause havoc, sincea high force spell is deadly to the mage - a Force 8 Manabolt has you resisting 8P - that's NOT gonna happen.
I've also suggested building in some sort of damage resistance test, like perhaps Body + Will or Body + Will + Counterspelling or something, but that's really not enough for a decent damage resist. I really think raising drain is the way to balance the spell, rather than dropping damage.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

*shrugs*
And getting less uncommon each edition. 4th has awakened far more common than doctors by percentage of population, for instance.

But if you absolutely must keep them rare, wards are relatively cheap, quick to put up, and fairly long-duration. A warded checkpoint with a couple of guards able to cover the approach (and therefore keep mages from entering the ward) will work fairly well, and only needs to be refreshed perhaps once a month. And wards function similarly to counterspelling: a flat +force to the resistance dice pool of targets inside.

[Malachi]

If you can't justify that a Mage would be present, there's always a Spirit with the Magical Guard power. Also keep in mind that pretty much all Security personnel have been trained in mundane ways to counter Magic. The biggest one being: line of sight. If the Mage can't see you, they can't cast a spell. So, liberal use of cover, smoke grenades, and flash packs.

[DireRadiant]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=26840

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=25805

[Jaid]

ummm...

have the people in your group discovered the wonders of long bursts yet? it rather sounds like they haven't. with a long burst from most guns, you can pretty much guarantee your target is down. if you've got a lot of skill, you can even do that with a short burst (or even doing full auto and hitting each target with half the bullets). alternately, there's all kinds of drugs that will take someone down instantly, grenades whenever chunky salsa would apply... really, the list goes on.

sure, direct combat spells make people drop like flies. but then again... so does pretty much everything else in SR4 at least. direct combat spells are not particularly any different in that sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ummm...

have the people in your group discovered the wonders of long bursts yet? it rather sounds like they haven't. with a long burst from most guns, you can pretty much guarantee your target is down. if you've got a lot of skill, you can even do that with a short burst (or even doing full auto and hitting each target with half the bullets). alternately, there's all kinds of drugs that will take someone down instantly, grenades whenever chunky salsa would apply... really, the list goes on.

sure, direct combat spells make people drop like flies. but then again... so does pretty much everything else in SR4 at least. direct combat spells are not particularly any different in that sense.

Yeah, THIS...

[Bugfoxmaster]

Hm, well I suppose that's what Shadowrun IS - deadly. You do everything you can to be prepared, find all the ways and information to make your job safer and easier, and then you face off with a handful of guys with assault rifles and see just how well you did - and how good your luck is.
Pretty much the essence of the game...

[Andinel]

It's not that massive amounts of gunfire isn't deadly - it's that it allows both a test to dodge and a test to resist damage, as do indirect combat spells. Having a single test for spell resistance doesn't sit well with me for Direct Combat spells, and because the drain value on them is fairly low, there gets to be a huge problem when they're overcast, not resisted even by 1 hit, and target goes splat without a second shot. Even if you fire a HMG full narrow burst, you're going to be doing about 15P, but that gets to be resisted with Body + Ballistic Armor - AP, so for the average person, they may get shot up to hell, but they'll still have a chance of either dodging first, and failing that, resisting some of the damage done. With a direct spell, they don't get that. They get their "dodge" as if they'd made a full defense (WIL or BOD + Counterspelling), and if they fail, they die. It's an all-or-nothing effect, and I have a problem that it's that strong with those few limits. Even the drain values are manageable.

The reason I propose this is that bypassing Damage Resistance is an insanely strong effect on its own, especially against trolls and the like. Reducing the damage by a significant amount would put Direct Combat spells on par with Indirect Combat spells, as the IC spells allow both dodge and Damage Resistance for more damage, whereas the DC spells have only a spell resistance test and bypass Damage Resistance entirely.

[Muspellsheimr]

You have the same problem I did; not that they were overpowering (they are, but not by much, compared to other RAW options), but rather that they followed a separate system than every other combat test in the game. Thus, instead of introducing another sub-system to Direct Combat spells, as every other suggestion (including the RAW optional rule) does, why not remove the existing sub-system of stupidity, as I have done.



Targets of a Direct Combat Spell receive a Defense Test of Intuition (+ Counterspelling). If the Defender obtains an equal or greater number of Hits, they avoid the effects entirely; if the Attacker obtains a greater number of Hits, each Net Hits increases the Damage Value by 1.

Targets of a Direct Combat Spell receive a Resistance Test of Body + Astral Armor (for Physical spells) or Willpower + Astral Armor (for Mana spells). Each Hit on the Resistance Test reduces the Damage Value by 1. Any unresisted damage is applied normally.

[Bugfoxmaster]

This is a really dumb question, that I could answer just by looking at the book, but in my laziness:
What's astral armor (besides the 'Armor' spell)?
And a slightly less stupif question: What's the in-game, role-playing explanation for this? This feels like we'd be taking a step in a really weird direction, by fluff standards...

[Muspellsheimr]

Mystic Armor (Critter Power) provides Astral Armor.
Astral Armor (Street Magic spell) provides Astral Armor.
Mystic Armor (Adept Power) provides Armor & Astral Armor.

Astral Armor (RAW) applies to Damage Resistance tests vs. Astral Combat attacks.
With my rule, it also assists against Direct Combat spells; the 'fluff' behind it is that Counterspelling can deflect an incoming bolt of magical energy, but not blunt it. Astral Armor will not assist you in avoiding being struck, but if you are, will blunt it's force - just as physical armor blunts the impact of physical attacks.

It will not help against Indirect spells, however, as Indirect spells are not lobbing mystic energy at you, they are using mystic energy to create an orb of fire, & lobbing that at you.

[Andinel]

Targets of a Direct Combat Spell receive a Resistance Test of Body + Astral Armor (for Physical spells) or Willpower + Astral Armor (for Mana spells). Each Hit on the Resistance Test reduces the Damage Value by 1. Any unresisted damage is applied normally.

The biggest problem that I have with this is that it wouldn't come into play often enough to make the option workable, since regular armor doesn't provide astral armor. In fact, the only things that I can find that provide non-critters astral armor are a spell and an adept power. Unless you also have some kind of house rule that grants mundanes astral armor, I appreciate your suggestion but I can't find a reason to use it. Astral armor is uncommon enough, and difficult for most people to get. Plus, this still gives a huge advantage of direct over indirect, since the drain value of direct spells are lower for a very, very similar effect.

[Muspellsheimr]

1) It makes Astral Armor actually mean something. Mage's might actually take the spell once in a while.

2) It provides at minimum Body or Willpower to stage the damage down, which even with 'Joe Average', should regularly reduce damage by at least 1 box.

3) Most importantly, the rules are actually consistent with my adjustment.


Direct Combat Spells, with the Rules as Written, are indeed overpowering. It is by such a small amount, however, that it can generally be overlooked - especially when you take into account various other overpowering options available, most mundane (I'm looking at you Stick-n-Shock).

Indirect Combat Spells have several distinct advantages over Direct Combat Spells, which provide the reasoning behind their higher Drain Code (from a balance perspective - from fluff, it's harder to conjure fire than it is to simply overload their brain). I personally do not agree that what they have is enough to balance out the disadvantages (armor easier to obtain & higher Drain), but that is more a problem with Elemental Effects (except Electricity) & how they apply to Indirect spells, than it is with the Indirect spell itself.

My suggestions for Indirect Combat spells are:
1) Blind-Fire rules may be used; most important for single-target spells, it is also beneficial for Area spells if you cannot see at all.
2) Elemental effects do not have that stupid limiter of 'doesn't last more than one round' - Acid continues to burn for acid's normal duration. Other Elemental effects may need to be adjusted to bring them all to a similar power level; I still have yet to find a good solution on how to work Fire.

[Bugfoxmaster]

Um... besides being useable when shooting at people you can't see, and the elemental effects, what advantages to Indirect spells have?
It seems that along with the obvious advantages, direct combat spells are also INVISIBLE, and thus leave to line of fire to trace the user's location...