Possession Tradition Tactical Manual, for GMs as well as players Options

[Falconer]

I don't know about 180....

It's good to see the FAQ stopped from radically changing the RAW. The limitation on attributes is good... (though it does keep trolls and orcs as de-facto possession kings).

It's also good to see armor clarified... my argument was based on the fact that that portion of the rules was ambiguous (and the purpose of a FAQ is to clarify ambiguous not change published rules). It's the only armor which people regularly assumed stacked which had no words to that effect... my goal to point out that it didn't necessarily need to as a GM's call while staying within RAW. One way to put it would be every different piece of armor had a special case stacking/non-stacking clause except hardened, and there is no general stacking rule published anywhere.

In any case, my problem was the unlimited stacking of aromr and attributes... w/ the attribute changes... I have far less issues w/ these.

[sn0mm1s]

Hmm... so... could a mage Shapechange themselves *then* get possessed? Since you are no longer a metahuman you are no longer subject to metahuman attribute limits. From what I can tell there are no limits on critter attributes.... so a troll mage could shapechange into a rhino and then get possessed turning into an uber rhino. You also get to use your successes to add to the base stats. You could probably get up to 40 body/str.

[rumanchu]

What you seem to be forgetting, though, is that the spirit STILL gets that armor rating to resist the damage when it comes time to do so... even though it bypasses the ITNW portion of the Resistance is irrelevant in teh long run because that armor is still used in the Damage Resisteance test...

Keep the Faith

I know that the spirit still gets to add the armor; my main issue has been (what appeared to me) the argument that the massive armor pool that Possessed vessels was all Hardened.

[Falconer]

sn0mm1s:
What portion of MAGIC cannot augment you past your natural augmented maximums is hard to understand.

Where is shapechange listed as an exception to that rule? Nowhere.

Shapechange makes pains specifically to limit you to forms close to your own size. (within 2 points of your body score).

Also, your logic is flawed... shapechangers have augmented limits as well and they're specifically non-metahumans... (and the augmented limit is not always 50% over the base attribute... sometimes it's less). Sasquatch and other non-metahumans also have augmented maxes listed. So no, critters aren't special, their maxes would be up to your GM to set upon. (he'll probably balk at a str 15 norwegian wharf rat for example)

[Falconer]

sn0mm1s:
What portion of MAGIC cannot augment you past your natural augmented maximums is hard to understand.

Where is shapechange listed as an exception to that rule? Nowhere.

Shapechange makes pains specifically to limit you to forms close to your own size. (within 2 points of your body score).

Also, your logic is flawed... shapechangers have augmented limits as well and they're specifically non-metahumans... (and the augmented limit is not always 50% over the base attribute... sometimes it's less). Sasquatch and other non-metahumans also have augmented maxes listed. So no, critters aren't special, their maxes would be up to your GM to set upon. (he'll probably balk at a str 15 norwegian wharf rat for example)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I know that the spirit still gets to add the armor; my main issue has been (what appeared to me) the argument that the massive armor pool that Possessed vessels was all Hardened.

I always saw their Hardened Armor as only the Force of the Spirit x 2... nothing else would add to that Hardened Armor, so the rest really did not matter for that purpose...

I never really saw it in any other way...

Keep the Faith

[Mordinvan]

sn0mm1s:
What portion of MAGIC cannot augment you past your natural augmented maximums is hard to understand.

In my case it would be the part of where I ask for a reasonable explanation of anything magical and people tell me to piss off. I'll just settle for 'its magic' and NONE of the rules of SR magic say anything about only being able to augment you so far.

Where is shapechange listed as an exception to that rule? Nowhere.

Shapechange makes pains specifically to limit you to forms close to your own size. (within 2 points of your body score).

And more points for every success. So if you get exploding 6's and get 20 successes, it should be a +20 to your stats, but its not. This places hard caps on magic which don't actually exist under the rules of SR magic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my case it would be the part of where I ask for a reasonable explanation of anything magical and people tell me to piss off. I'll just settle for 'its magic' and NONE of the rules of SR magic say anything about only being able to augment you so far.

And more points for every success. So if you get exploding 6's and get 20 successes, it should be a +20 to your stats, but its not. This places hard caps on magic which don't actually exist under the rules of SR magic.

Exept that for Critters (The Restriction of Shapechange) have no hard caps for their Normal Stats, let alone their Augmented Stats (with the Exception of Humans, which are indeed Critters)... therefore your +20 to the Critter's form will still be a +20 to the Physical stats of the Critter (unless I have missed something somewhere else)...

Of course, there may be some Common Sense limits put in place here... I find it hard to believe that a Rat could have a +5 to ANY physical Stat (betond the base stat), let alone a +20... Just Sayin'

keep the Faith

[McCummhail]

There is one thing possession can do that materialization cannot:
A voodoo shaman can still literally win fights and arguments with straw men.

[sn0mm1s]

sn0mm1s:
What portion of MAGIC cannot augment you past your natural augmented maximums is hard to understand.

The exact rule is:
"The maximum augmented attribute value for
each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down (see the
Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81)."

Emphasis mine. Last I checked, an elephant isn't a metatype.

Where is shapechange listed as an exception to that rule? Nowhere.

Shapechange (Physical)
Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p. 292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians
in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform other tasks requiring
speech.
Critter form works like the Shapechange spell, but only allows the
subject to change into a specific non-paranormal animal. Each critter
form is a different spell (Eagle Form, Wolf Form, and so on).

Are you saying that a troll of body 10 can't turn into a normal elephant with 16 STR or say a troll of body 5 and str 10 won't have str 10 when he turns into an antelope? Or both?

Shapechange makes pains specifically to limit you to forms close to your own size. (within 2 points of your body score).

Yes, and has no other restrictions.

Also, your logic is flawed... shapechangers have augmented limits as well and they're specifically non-metahumans... (and the augmented limit is not always 50% over the base attribute... sometimes it's less). Sasquatch and other non-metahumans also have augmented maxes listed. So no, critters aren't special, their maxes would be up to your GM to set upon. (he'll probably balk at a str 15 norwegian wharf rat for example)

Shapechangers have their own rules explicitly defined. Normal critters do not. You are saying a GM would balk at a str 15 rat but wouldn't balk at a str 15 robot action figure? Or are you saying that a GM would balk at a possessed str 15 live rat but not at a possessed str 15 dead one?

[Nifft]

There is one thing possession can do that materialization cannot:
A voodoo shaman can still literally win fights and arguments with straw men.

I wish I could posrep you for this.

Thanks, -- N

[Mordinvan]

Exept that for Critters (The Restriction of Shapechange) have no hard caps for their Normal Stats, let alone their Augmented Stats (with the Exception of Humans, which are indeed Critters)... therefore your +20 to the Critter's form will still be a +20 to the Physical stats of the Critter (unless I have missed something somewhere else)...

Of course, there may be some Common Sense limits put in place here... I find it hard to believe that a Rat could have a +5 to ANY physical Stat (betond the base stat), let alone a +20... Just Sayin'

keep the Faith

I'm not disagreeing, but I have the same problem with the new rulling on possession. A force 20 spirit possesses a normal human, a second one possesses a straw scare crow. To me it seems odd that the scare crow should be able to beat the crap out of the human, but the rules now allow for it.

[Mordinvan]

Shapechangers have their own rules explicitly defined. Normal critters do not. You are saying a GM would balk at a str 15 rat but wouldn't balk at a str 15 robot action figure? Or are you saying that a GM would balk at a possessed str 15 live rat but not at a possessed str 15 dead one?

Ya this pretty much sums up my whole problem with the change.

[pbangarth]

Check this out for a fun topic of conversation in this thread:

LINK to idea about Endowment

[dirkformica]

Check this out for a fun topic of conversation in this thread:

LINK to idea about Endowment

Here are a few of my posts from before the faqalypse:

Fun with endowment (some methods are more powerful than others, but they all have their uses)

Here's one where I started asking about Endowment and got some input from Ancient History.

[pbangarth]

Here are a few of my posts from before the faqalypse:

Fun with endowment (some methods are more powerful than others, but they all have their uses)

Here's one where I started asking about Endowment and got some input from Ancient History.

More coolness! Thanks. We should remember that a character can only be Endowed with one Power at a time. (SM, p. 99)

[dirkformica]

More coolness! Thanks. We should remember that a character can only be Endowed with one Power at a time. (SM, p. 99)

Well that's what Binding is for. You may not be able to have multiple Endowments from one spirit, but you can have multiple Endowments from multiple spirits.

"No character may gain more than one power from a spirit in this way at a time." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Makki]

so, you get astral form and materialization from your two bound spirits and now you are the magical teleporting Ethan Hunt to break in everywhere. if you got Masking wards aren't probably no limit since you have ~8 int+ 8mag +grade2 vs force x 2 for fooling. item stealing might be difficult, but information you can just remember or maybe upload data.
furthermore, look for one or two free spirits and spirit pacts to give you realistic form and mutable form. now you can be everyone everywhere

oh, is this still the possession thread?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not disagreeing, but I have the same problem with the new rulling on possession. A force 20 spirit possesses a normal human, a second one possesses a straw scare crow. To me it seems odd that the scare crow should be able to beat the crap out of the human, but the rules now allow for it.

Interestingly, most books that I have read that deal with this (outside of Shdowrun) tend to portray it that way though... The only limits to your Homonculous is the structure of the material... Humans have a distinct structure that cannot be overcome without seriously damaging the vessel. At that point, I would expect something that is not flesh to have a better time of that sort of thing... of course, they may have inherent problems of their own as well (which Shadowrun does not attempt to protray), as the Strawman would be susceptible to fire (as an example)...

Not arguing, just sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well that's what Binding is for. You may not be able to have multiple Endowments from one spirit, but you can have multiple Endowments from multiple spirits.

"No character may gain more than one power from a spirit in this way at a time." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I am sorry... A Spirit is not the same as The Spirit... My read is that you may only have a single endowed power at a time... Period.

"A" is a reference that includes many options, while "The" is an example of a specific option...

For example... A Car is not the Same as THE Car...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[crizh]

Chiming in very late here I know.

There are a couple of points I've come across reading this thread that tweaked my radar.

First, Knasser stated a number of times that a Channelling Mage uses the possessing spirit's mental and Magic stat for skill use and spellcasting.

I can't find any support for that position in the text (or common sense) and am surprised he would suggest that a Magic 6 Mage could possess himself with a Force 12 spirit and then use it's Magic of 12 to rinse and repeat....

Secondly, Pbangarth noted that Task spirits are just as good for Materialization traditions as for Possession.

This would indeed be a good point if any Materialization tradition got access to them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Chiming in very late here I know.

There are a couple of points I've come across reading this thread that tweaked my radar.

First, Knasser stated a number of times that a Channelling Mage uses the possessing spirit's mental and Magic stat for skill use and spellcasting.

I can't find any support for that position in the text (or common sense) and am surprised he would suggest that a Magic 6 Mage could possess himself with a Force 12 spirit and then use it's Magic of 12 to rinse and repeat....

Secondly, Pbangarth noted that Task spirits are just as good for Materialization traditions as for Possession.

This would indeed be a good point if any Materialization tradition got access to them.

There are a lot of various "Traditions" that are not detailed in the Books... I am willing to bet that one of those are a Materialization Tradition, and indeed has access to the Task Spirit...

Keep the Faith

[knasser]

Well knasser, I don't really think that possession and materialization were ever intended to be balanced with each other. Just my opinion.

Oh I agree. Fully and without reservation. Far too much of value and fun is sacrificed on the altar of Balance. Rock, paper, scissors. Eggshells armed with hammers. This is the charm of Shadowrun as opposed to something like D&D: It's an asymetrical game which is why you get so much subterfuge and backstabbing and planning. Which is also why it was exasperating when threads complaining that possession was unbalanced with Materialisation periodically pop up because in a D&D style game with everything taken out of context, it appeared powerful. What I've been arguing is what you just said. But some of the devs appear to have heard these complaints and appear to have changed things in attempt to introduce balance with Materialisation. The consequence is to in fact make it significantly worse than Materialisation in many ways.

[knasser]

First, Knasser stated a number of times that a Channelling Mage uses the possessing spirit's mental and Magic stat for skill use and spellcasting.

The dual entity that results from possession when the vessel isn't channeling, has the mental and special attributes of the spirit. That's explicitly stated in the book. Channelling states that the channeling magician can use her own skills. Spell casting is obviously a skill. The only reference to changes to attributes under channeling different to normal possession, is that the magician resists mana spells with the lowest of the two entities' Mental attributes. It states to otherwise resolve the effects and duration of possession normally. Strict RAW seems to be that yes, the entity is using the spirit's Magic stat. If one were to consider spells to be intimately tied to a character's own Magic attribute, i.e. a character's attribute is some sort of integral part of their spell casting rather than a battery that can be plugged into different spell casters (for want of a better analogy), then you might wish to rule that spell casting goes from the original magician's Magic attribute. I can't however see RAW support for it. I personally would not be in favour of Magician's getting to use their own Magic stat anyway for the sake of the effect on the game. If a magician gets to use their own Magic and Mental attributes, then they can possess themselves with low to medium force spirits without impacting on their ability to cast spells. Possession mage players would love this! As it is, if a possession magician wishes to have comparable or better spellcasting whilst possessed, they have to get a pretty powerful spirit, say Force 6+ to possess themselves. And the more powerful the magician, the higher force the spirit has to be to keep up. Some seem to be arguing that getting a Magic boost from a high-force spirit is unbalanced or some sort of cheat. I find when possession is used in practice, the risks and costs of high force spirits become apparent and what has far greater impact, is the limiting effect of not being able to get much utility out of medium and low force spirits. Materialisation magicians can get great use out of Force 3's or even lower. Possession magicians are either weakening their own spellcasting abilities to be possessed by such spirits, taking chances about whether or not they'll be able to use the spirit at all if possessing enemies or going with the approach of carrying around hormunculi with them everywhere (often not viable). Letting magicians get away with using their own Magic and Mental attributes when possessed severely reduces this effect.

K.

[crizh]

Letting magicians get away with using their own Magic and Mental attributes when possessed severely reduces

This was an attitude I felt certain I would never see expressed on Dumpshock unless I had been sniffing substantial quantities of paint thinners.

I'm pretty sure that sort of ruling could be exploited into all new levels of lunacy.