Dualwielding SMGs and firing 1 long burst each, With no recoil and no split pool? Options

[Triggvi]

I don't anyone that actually plays it that recoil penalties add up even after they after been fully compensated for.

[Smokeskin]

The recoil thing is an entirely separate issue. Like I said before though, it really isn't any harder to switch from one hand to the other than it is to switch from one target to another with a single weapon. I do this all the time with my computers. I'll be working on both at once, and switching my focus from one to the other takes no longer than it would take me to switch my focus on which application I'm using on a single computer.

I've never tried firing guns two handed, but I'd imagine I'd be equally apt at switching my focus from one weapon to the other.

Edit: Also, I think you can concede that it would be at least somewhat easier to switch from one weapon to another than it would be to try and focus on both weapons at once. Once again, I do this with my computers from time to time, and it is far harder than switching back and forth.

It isn't just switching focus, you have to align the weapon sight too.

You do have a very good point with the comparison to just switching targets though, though that does carry a -2 modifier.

[Karoline]

so if you have a comlink in your other hand you have to split your dice pools? Having two weapons in your hands, but you only fire one at a time. No dice pool split.

Good point, I'd totally meant to include something like that.

[Karoline]

It isn't just switching focus, you have to align the weapon sight too.

You do have a very good point with the comparison to just switching targets though, though that does carry a -2 modifier.

Does it? I thought that was only if you were doing a burst or something at multiple targets.

Well, if that is the case, that might be the answer. Firing one gun and then another carries the -2 modifier from switching targets, firing both at the same time splits your dice like normal.

[Doc Byte]

It isn't just switching focus, you have to align the weapon sight too.

Welcome to the realm of smartlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Karoline]

Welcome to the realm of smartlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Yeah, what weapon sights?

[Tyro]

One thing I think everyone's been missing is that we're talking, for the most part, about RECOILLESS weapons. IRL a recoilless SMG doesn't exist AFAIK. It's much easier to fire a second weapon accurately if the first one didn't move around at all.

[Yerameyahu]

No, it's crazy not to use recoil as cumulative. A short + long burst is *supposed* to be 'the same' as full auto, Triggvi; plus, you get to aim your two shots, whereas a Full Burst would have to be 'walked' across multiple targets.

No, there's no reason at all to have two hands split the dice pool when using two wholly separate actions. The whole point of splitting the DP is because you're gaining something: two attacks in the same action. It's a tradeoff.

The 'focus' argument is just silly. You don't split your DP when making multiple attacks with the same gun, or when performing two completely different actions in the same Phase (say, shooting a gun and then throwing a grenade). It's only when you *gain* something that you also lose something.

[Dumori]

One thing I think everyone's been missing is that we're talking, for the most part, about RECOILLESS weapons. IRL a recoilless SMG doesn't exist AFAIK. It's much easier to fire a second weapon accurately if the first one didn't move around at all.

We are apparently getting close with that super V stuff. Thats apparently low kick and manageable in FA thats chambered for 45 ACP. I can see something firring a round made for PDW/smg say the P-90 with that tech as well eating recoil more so with the many other possibility that can be added to remove recoil for affecting your shot..

[Triggvi]

No, it's crazy not to use recoil as cumulative. A short + long burst is *supposed* to be 'the same' as full auto, Triggvi; plus, you get to aim your two shots, whereas a Full Burst would have to be 'walked' across multiple targets.

No, there's no reason at all to have two hands split the dice pool when using two wholly separate actions. The whole point of splitting the DP is because you're gaining something: two attacks in the same action. It's a tradeoff.

The 'focus' argument is just silly. You don't split your DP when making multiple attacks with the same gun, or when performing two completely different actions in the same Phase (say, shooting a gun and then throwing a grenade). It's only when you *gain* something that you also lose something.

it is not 2 thing at once. it is one simple action with one smg and then another simple action with the other. Please read more carefully. two burst, two simple actions, one IP.

[Yerameyahu]

Um? I didn't say it was two things at once. I specifically said the opposite.

[Mäx]

Err, see, that's just not right. The second shot gets the benefit of all six points of recoil compensation. Recoil compensation isn't spent (for lack of a better word) when used (ditto), even in the same action phase. If you have six points of recoil compensation, you have 0 recoil on both shots.

This excapmle for mSR4A page 154, would seem to state that your wrong

"Slinger has an Uzi in hand, ready to fire a burst against the hit man that just took out his friend. Slinger is rolling his Automatics 4 + Agility 5 (9 dice) against the target’s Reaction 5. Though his recoil compensation of 2 accounts for the burst’s –2 recoil, he’s also facing some other modifiers (–3 total, for a dice pool of 6). Slinger goes for a narrow burst, increasing the Uzi’s DV by +2. He rolls 3 hits, the target rolls 2, so he hits. His net hit of 1 increases the DV of the Uzi from 5P to 6P, which unfortunately doesn’t exceed the assassin’s armor rating of 6. That means the target has to resist 8S DV (base DV 5 + 1 net hit + 2 narrow burst, Physical converted to Stun by the armor). With his next Simple Action, Slinger’s facing a lot of recoil, so he goes for a wideburst. The extra –3 recoil reduces his dice pool to 3, so he only gets 1 hit. The target’s dice pool suffers a –2 modifier from the wide burst and a further –1 from defending against an attack since his last action. He rolls only 2 dice but gets 1 hit. That’s a tie, so Slinger just misses hitting the guy with the second burst."
I bolded the important part.

[Smokeskin]

Welcome to the realm of smartlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Smartlinks doesn't keep your sights on the target, it just displays where your gun is pointing. Not much different from a laser sight.

[ClemulusRex]

One of the favorite moves of some people on these boards is to carry two of the ruger revolvers and blast 1 shot from each gun as simple/simple.

Damn. And here I felt all special for being the one among my friends to figure this out. Gotta remember I'm a small fish in a big pond on the 'boards....

[Smokeskin]

Why not dual Thunderbolts instead? Or a single Thunderbolt with personalized stock, underbarrel weight is at RC 4, and if you allow to upgrade the built-in RC with gasvents, you're at zero recoil anyway (otherwise, add a folding stock).

[Dumori]

ThunderBolts cant take underbarrel weight or gas-vents by RAW they be a pistol.

[Triggvi]

Damn. And here I felt all special for being the one among my friends to figure this out. Gotta remember I'm a small fish in a big pond on the 'boards....

I thing your solution is cooler. I wish they would have a melee striker you could add the the hvy pistol like a stun club style or spikes that pop out.

[Dumori]

Quick Draw and SMGs on slings is broken like this two you also don't that the one hand or off hand penitys...

Pass one:
Quick Draw Fire
Drop
Quick Draw Fire
Pass two:
Fire
Drop
Quick Draw Fire
Repeat pass two untill all are dead.

[Yerameyahu]

I wouldn't call it broken. Ambidextrous is cheap anyway, and you're not gaining all that much firepower. I don't even think you can Quick Draw an SMG, it's 'pistol or pistol-sized'. Even a Machine Pistol doesn't really qualify, if you're going by the sizes from the Concealability table, or by the simple fact that Quick Draw actions use Pistols skill.

Ah, sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I didn't realize you didn't mean the Quick Draw *action*. In that case, you're now buying the Adept and spending precious points on that Power; seems like a fair-ish trade.

[Dumori]

I'm not sure. I think the adept power witch is what I'm talking about mean you can quick draw anything AFB right now.

[DWC]

I'm not sure. I think the adept power witch is what I'm talking about mean you can quick draw anything AFB right now.

The adept power lets you quick draw anything, as does the Iajitsu martial arts maneuver.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. My point is that you're still investing something to get that small bonus, so it's not 'broken'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

… Can you really Iaijutsu a submachine gun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oh jeez.

[Smokeskin]

ThunderBolts cant take underbarrel weight or gas-vents by RAW they be a pistol.

I keep thinking of them as machine pistols, you're right they can't take gasvents.

They can take underbarrel weight mods though, only the auto-adjusting one is restricted for pistols.

[Ol' Scratch]

Pistols don't have an underbarrel mount. Despite some clearly mentioning they do (in other editions if not this one.)

[Smokeskin]

Pistols don't have an underbarrel mount. Despite some clearly mentioning they do (in other editions if not this one.)

Underbarrel weight mod, not accessory. Different thing, doesn't need a mount. The accessory one also only helps with Full Bursts, so it would be useless anyway.