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> CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear
Cheops
post May 31 2010, 01:30 PM
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Shadowrun-related reasons I want CGL to fail:

1) Increased likelihood of a truly new edition happening in the next year or so.
2) Recovery of estranged free lancers.
3) Improved product release. How is it that we are 5 years into SR4 and the only reason we are getting a Corporate Download style book is to try and scramble to save the company?
4) Overlapping storylines: dovetails off of #3 but the 2050's always seemed to have 3-4 things happening each year. Need a faster release schedule to get these metaplots going again.
5) Separation of BT from SR. Different companies to cater to different needs.

No offense to any of the freelancers or CGL employees who would get screwed by this but CGL going up in flames is the best situation for a fan like me.
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Dread Moores
post May 31 2010, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops @ May 31 2010, 08:30 AM) *
Shadowrun-related reasons I want CGL to fail:

5) Separation of BT from SR. Different companies to cater to different needs.

No offense to any of the freelancers or CGL employees who would get screwed by this but CGL going up in flames is the best situation for a fan like me.


That's an interesting one. Can you clarify something for me? Do you believe that no company could handle those two games together? I mean, there are companies out there that successfully handle multiple games from different genres. I'm guessing (hence why I'm asking) that it's directed more towards the fact that CGL's upper management and a number of its core positions were formerly (or currently) held by "Battletech guys." I'm just wondering if you really think that all games of different genres shouldn't/couldn't be handled by a single company, if there's proper division. If it's more directed specifically at CGL's situation, well, I might not disagree with you there. Just not sure if I could go whole hog to say that this mixing should never happen in any company.
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emouse
post May 31 2010, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Dacoit @ May 30 2010, 11:26 PM) *
Here's the deal: I have the greatest respect for the SR freelancers who pulled their copyrights because of ethical issues, such as not getting paid. They were entirely within their rights and I don't have a bad thing to say about them. It's just not something I can do, because I need every penny I'm owed. Which is why I've continued to write for Catalyst, in the interim--because that offers me the best chance of recovering the monies owed me.


I'm very curious, have you received any payments after this whole mess went public, and are you still owed anything?
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knasser
post May 31 2010, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ May 31 2010, 10:31 AM) *
read it line by line, then and observe that it has absolutely nothing to do with your posting or not posting in other threads. i will restate: you don't have problems with moderators having and expressing opinions in other threads, right?


I have answered this. And my answer was not the result of failing to understand what you said.

I don't read every single thread on this forum. You keep saying that I "don't have a problem with this in other threads" from which I'm inferring that you're saying my point is invalid because I apply it inconsistently - that I'm showing a bias in making the point here. To which again, I reply, that I don't read every thread and if I came across similar instances elsewhere then yes, I would probably say the same. That you say there are instances out there where I haven't done so means nothing unless I'm actually aware of those instances. And if you really want to take the tone of "read it line by line", then I feel compelled to point out for the second time that I am not saying what you keep telling me I'm saying: That I have a problem with moderators having and expressing opinions. What I have clearly stated and will do so for your benefit a third time, is this: if there's a heated argument, and someone is both taking one of the sides in that debate and issuing warnings to other participants, locking the thread, etc., then that's a demonstrable conflict of interest.
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Doc Byte
post May 31 2010, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops @ May 31 2010, 03:30 PM) *
Shadowrun-related reasons I want CGL to fail:

1) Increased likelihood of a truly new edition happening in the next year or so.


Sure way for killing foreign Editions in Germany and France, IMO.
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Arclight
post May 31 2010, 05:04 PM
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Who cares? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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MindandPen
post May 31 2010, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Byte @ May 31 2010, 11:53 AM) *
Sure way for killing foreign Editions in Germany and France, IMO.


Why?

-M&P
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Arclight
post May 31 2010, 06:02 PM
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SR4 came a little late in Germany, as the license negotiations took some time back then. So it's only 2 or 3 years in the market here. With SR5, people would need to buy new core books too fast, some people fear.
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Doc Byte
post May 31 2010, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ May 31 2010, 07:04 PM) *


Fair question as CGL seems to cram foreign royalties into their very own pockets.
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Cheops
post May 31 2010, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ May 31 2010, 06:02 PM) *
SR4 came a little late in Germany, as the license negotiations took some time back then. So it's only 2 or 3 years in the market here. With SR5, people would need to buy new core books too fast, some people fear.


Well, maybe they can delay a release this go around too. Give the translators ample time to do the job thoroughly and maybe localize the books instead of just translating. I'm sure most of you don't run in Seattle/HK. 5 years is just right under a normal release schedule (which admittedly hasn't happened) and is far to long for someone who doesn't like an edition (like me YMMV). In NA they got the core books out within 3 years for 2 years worth of play with the "full" rule set. Can it wait longer? Yes. Can CGL or whoever replaces them wait longer? There's no reason why they should AFAIK.

Note: I don't count SR$A in the new edition equation.
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Korwin
post May 31 2010, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ May 31 2010, 07:02 PM) *
SR4 came a little late in Germany, as the license negotiations took some time back then. So it's only 2 or 3 years in the market here. With SR5, people would need to buy new core books too fast, some people fear.



Huh, according to Amazon.de Shadowrun 4.01 is there since 2005 Fantasy Productions; Auflage: 1 (ups that was/is the Limited Edition)
Here the normal Version. Ulisses Spiele; Auflage: 2., Aufl. (Oktober 2005).

Or did you mean the version from Pegasus? ( but that got published in September 2009 )

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Stahlseele
post May 31 2010, 06:45 PM
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The Truth lies somewhere in between.
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Doc Byte
post May 31 2010, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Korwin @ May 31 2010, 08:43 PM) *
Huh, according to Amazon.de Shadowrun 4.01 is there since 2005 Fantasy Productions; Auflage: 1 (ups that was/is the Limited Edition)
Here the normal Version. Ulisses Spiele; Auflage: 2., Aufl. (Oktober 2005).

Or did you mean the version from Pegasus? ( but that got published in September 2009 )


Yes, we had the BBB and the SM from FanPro in German, but we had no German SR at all for nearly 2 years when FanPro went down and Ulisses and Pegasus where fighting for the license. SR4A and RC where published by Pegasus in German last fall, meaning we have the complet core books in German for just about half a year.
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DireRadiant
post May 31 2010, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ May 30 2010, 04:02 PM) *
Also, do you think it is appropriate to mingle your mod duties with taking sides in this discussion?


Ever wonder why a mod needs a different color when posting?

The moderators are specifically screened and chosen for their ability to perform their moderation duties yet still participate meaningfully on the boards.

If you have a problem with any single moderator you can report them to the moderation team. We're human, we make mistakes, and are subject to Warnings and bans just like everyone else.

If you have a problem with the post, you can report that to the moderating team and it will be reviewed by the entire moderating team.

If you have a problem with the board moderation in general you can start a thread in the appropriate forum.

If you have a problem with a moderator because they have an opinion different then yours, and thus you think they shouldn't be a moderator, then you're going to end up having problems with all the moderators. Not because they all disagree with you, but because they'll have a different opinion then yours at some point.

"So and So has opinion X which is clearly wrong so they are not fit for duty Y" is an argument many people should be all too familiar with, especially when "opinion X" might have no relation whatsoever to what is required to perform "duty Y"

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Bob Lord of Evil
post May 31 2010, 08:15 PM
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So I am going to speculate that CGL will in fact get the license renewed.

Then what?

What will it take to bring people back together and play the game?

Or with the license being renewed will that only ratchet up the anger/rage?

Can we agree mistakes were made, see if corrections will take place and move forward?

What will it take?
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Adam
post May 31 2010, 08:35 PM
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I'd like to slide in one point about moderators: part of the criteria they're picked for is "Do they participate in the community?" -- and it would be a shame to, immediately after they become moderators, for their community participation to dwindle down to nothing but moderator-related actions. We'd be robbing goodness from the community.
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Korwin
post May 31 2010, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Byte @ May 31 2010, 08:41 PM) *
Yes, we had the BBB and the SM from FanPro in German, but we had no German SR at all for nearly 2 years when FanPro went down and Ulisses and Pegasus where fighting for the license. SR4A and RC where published by Pegasus in German last fall, meaning we have the complet core books in German for just about half a year.


Was confused about the 2-3 years in Arclights post.
Didnt fit the orginal publishing of the 4. edition and not the publishing of the same rules with new layout and Errata.
And doesnt change that SR 4e was published in 2005 in Germany (or was the FanPro printing nowhere available? Dont know didnt play SR in this time period.)

And nitpicking, but RC isnt a Core book, or is it?
(do we use the D&D 4e term of Core book?)

For the record I bought the Pegasus Version of books last year, but I might get interested in an 5th edition if in an hypothetical new RC all play options would be playable...
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Bob Lord of Evil
post May 31 2010, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Adam @ May 31 2010, 08:35 PM) *
I'd like to slide in one point about moderators: part of the criteria they're picked for is "Do they participate in the community?" -- and it would be a shame to, immediately after they become moderators, for their community participation to dwindle down to nothing but moderator-related actions. We'd be robbing goodness from the community.


Agreed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Stahlseele
post May 31 2010, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ May 31 2010, 10:15 PM) *
So I am going to speculate that CGL will in fact get the license renewed.

Then what?

What will it take to bring people back together and play the game?

Or with the license being renewed will that only ratchet up the anger/rage?

Can we agree mistakes were made, see if corrections will take place and move forward?

What will it take?


seeing how the freelancers have left?
time to see if the new ones can deliver and to see wether or not it's good.
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Cheops
post May 31 2010, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Korwin @ May 31 2010, 09:41 PM) *
And nitpicking, but RC isnt a Core book, or is it?
(do we use the D&D 4e term of Core book?)


I've always considered the "core books" to be the ones that covered additional rules for the core concepts plus the BBB. So BBB, Magic book, Cyber book, Gun/Vehicle book, and Hacker book. Unwired was the last one and hit NA in the summer of 2008. That's 2 months short of 2 years.

@Bob: I'd have to see what the new freelancers are producing, what's in the pipeline, and how fast books are published. Even then I won't be playing SR4 but instead SR3, WFRPG3 or D&D4 converted SR. If quatlity stayed high and the production schedule picked up with NEW events and topics then I'd probably purchase books to flesh out my alternative rule-sets.

Unfortunately, everything that Frank and Ancient have been hinting at points to quality being VERY poor and the release schedule being bleak for at least another year or two. And as often as Frank has spanked my ass on these forums I'm more inclined to believe him and Ancient over what I've been hearing from the other side.
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Tycho
post May 31 2010, 09:09 PM
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Yes, the Core Rules were avaible Fall 2005, SM Late 2006, Mai 2007 Fanpro collapsed...

now, here is the point:

in USA in Sommer 2007 new book were released.

in Germany nothing happened until Fall 2008, so there were 1,5 years without a German Publisher or any support at conventions etc. Back then Pegasus got the license and started publishing the core books and made Support for SR4. The Pegasus Core Rules (in fact the Anniversary Edition) were released Sep 09.

There were many people that did not start to play SR4, because they wanted to wait for all the Core books to be available, which did not happen until end of 09. SR4 here has really started as Pegasus took over, there the forth edition and all books are just 1,5 years old. SR5, if is going to happen, will not sell good in Germany, thats for sure! Allmost everbody who played Shadowrun has bought all the books in the last 1,5 year. They will not spent the same money again in the next years on SR5, if they have bought the new books right now.

On the other hand: Pegasus does a great job, next week is Nordcon in Hamburg, at which the German Translation of Vice is released and so Pegasus released as all books of CGL, but in half the time, even adding value like 50pages chapter of Frankfurt in Corporate Enclaves and other stuff.

on topic:

If I do not hear an official statement today, I believe CGL has lost the license. For all we know, the license ends today, and considering the last "good news" released by CGL , they would not hold back on a confirmation of renewal! I do not expect that this statement is going to happen, which leaves my with the hope, that a new company takes an the license and the damage done by Loren L Colemen will be controlled, so that I have a chance of getting books from freelancers like Ancient History and Jay Levine.

cya
Tycho
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tweak
post May 31 2010, 09:12 PM
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Does the contract end tonight?
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Stahlseele
post May 31 2010, 09:16 PM
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i'm going to be at nordcon, seeing how i live 5 minutes of walking away from that place.
also, i am not too sure, but i think i actually saw german vice in one of my little shops allready . .
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imperialus
post May 31 2010, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ May 31 2010, 01:15 PM) *
So I am going to speculate that CGL will in fact get the license renewed.

Then what?

What will it take to bring people back together and play the game?

a few friends, some dice and a pizza delivery number? That's all I need.

QUOTE
Or with the license being renewed will that only ratchet up the anger/rage?

Nope, I just want more Shadowrun books. I do not want to see the IP get caught in limbo and see the line die.

QUOTE
Can we agree mistakes were made, see if corrections will take place and move forward?

If CGL gets their house in order and produces good books I'll keep buying.

QUOTE
What will it take?

Shadows of Latin America printed on gold leaf? Seriously despite the raging and gnashing of teeth contained in these threads I honestly think that the average Shadowrun player or GM probably doesn't even realize that this drama is going on, and even if they do have an idea of the proceedings honestly probably doesn't care as long as they can keep running their games.
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Bob Lord of Evil
post May 31 2010, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ May 31 2010, 09:09 PM) *
If I do not hear an official statement today, I believe CGL has lost the license. For all we know, the license ends today, and considering the last "good news" released by CGL , they would not hold back on a confirmation of renewal! I do not expect that this statement is going to happen, which leaves my with the hope, that a new company takes an the license and the damage done by Loren L Colemen will be controlled, so that I have a chance of getting books from freelancers like Ancient History and Jay Levine.

cya
Tycho


For you, if CGL retains the license then there is nothing that can be done to smooth over the situation? Considering that the low probability of fences being mended with the afore mentioned freelancers.

Imperialus, you are probably right and I like how you think (as far as what you need)! It would be cool to entertain the possibility that there could be a meeting of the minds and that we could move on if CGL retains the license.

Stahlseele, Cheops, fair enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

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