CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[Big Freaky Sean]

I have a feeling that this thread is going to get locked if we end up with to much argument on the finer points of copyright much like we did when the legal eagals were doing their bit about the word 'The'

Agreed.

In the spirt of moving back to the proposed subject of speculation on the current situation I wonder if things will be delayed over the summer somewhat by people going on holiday.

It is possible. I also wonder if Topps is going to wait until the license actually expires before they start to seek others successor companies.

I know the idea to some might seem silly but i've worked on a number of bids and contracts that are worth multiple millions and they have been put on hold right in negotiation because some big boss up the line is going away for a week. What is important to us here on the low level in the real world matters little to someone much higher up the chain.

Could you enlighten us as to how the bidding process might work in regards to a property like Shadowrun?

[Lansdren]

My background is in a very different area then this one but speaking very broadly if the property was going out to tender it would take a while to go through a full tender process from first response through to presentation then award. Even at best case scenario that takes time, the shortest period I know of for a tender in my industry was just over a month from first paperwork to actual contract signing.

Its a much shorted time if you go with the incumbent supplier because all the legal T's and C's are already in place and agreed where as if you have a new supplier there is a expected amount of legal discussion which again could add time.

But again this is based on the assumption that they are going for a full tender process. It’s not unheard of even in companies bigger then Tops for the real decisions to be made in the pub or on the golf course rather then in a tender setting.

A very rough tender process would be

PQQ = Pre qualifying questions, short list of questions sent off to a number of suppliers to let you shortlist who you want to actually talk with (this stage most likely ignored as Tops will have already shortlisted any possible other suppliers)
ITT = Invitation to Tender, This is where you would put together your proposal lay out your operational model for how to supply the service / run the property and also give a chance to express the financials of the bid (%'s going to tops any profit sharing efficiencies that kind of thing)
Presentation = normally you get a chance to present to the client (Tops) to express yourself and answer questions (normally three to four possible max could just be incumbent and best other)
Award = depending on the procedure within the clients company this could take a while particularly with the legal’s involved internationally

Now given the closed nature of the industry and very much a ‘who knows who’ situation it might all jump straight to a presentation by a few key players and a decision in a couple of weeks. There are so many variables in the mix I’m worried that I might be muddying the water somewhat.

[exolasher]

Hopefully SR will be treated well, whoever gets the license.

[Warlordtheft]

It is possible. I also wonder if Topps is going to wait until the license actually expires before they start to seek others successor companies.

I am thinking the current agreement with CGL may be extended a year. Considering they allowed a company to sublicense for a 4th edition online character generator. COntract extension and modification is much easier than drawing up a new one.

[Cheops]

Regarding Trees and Ghost Cartels:

[ Spoiler ]

You mean the whole business with Trees mentioned in Ghost Cartels on page 133 Secret of Tempo?

-M&P

Thanks for this. The trees plot makes a lot of sense and actually ties in very well.

I hadn't gotten around to reading Ghost Cartels yet. Love the format. Sort of a mix of Emergence (straight up metaplot elements) with Brainscan (adventure book allowing the runners to interact at a deep level with the metaplot). Easier to use than the storyling with adventure hooks and more fun to read than an adventure booklet.

[Brett]

I find this one pretty interesting since it means that a company could theoretically use the current SR mechanics for their own game, provided that they changed/reworded the rules explanation. It does explain why so many systems look like D&D with their 6 stats.

This is actually how the guys who made NET Epic, based off of Games Workshop old Space Marine/Titan Legions game. The mechanics are the same, but they re-wrote the rules in their own language, which is how the game has never been "Cease & Desist"-ed.

Also how the guy who worte the Strange Aeons miniatures game gets away with using the basic rule's from Mongoose's Gangs of Mega-City One game.

[Ancient History]

Thanks for this. The trees plot makes a lot of sense and actually ties in very well.

I hadn't gotten around to reading Ghost Cartels yet. Love the format. Sort of a mix of Emergence (straight up metaplot elements) with Brainscan (adventure book allowing the runners to interact at a deep level with the metaplot). Easier to use than the storyling with adventure hooks and more fun to read than an adventure booklet.

I'm not going to reveal any terrible details about that plot, but I think I can confirm it has nothing to do with the trees in Ghost Cartels. At least, when I left. No idea what it might be now.

[Demonseed Elite]

Though we used to have plans for those trees. Well, maybe not the trees, but related to the trees. Ghost Cartels was supposed to be the start to something ongoing. Not sure if it still is or not.

[Wailer]

All of this makes me very sad. It's like knowing all the magician's secrets.

IMO, Keep it in the Family > CYA.

Here's hoping that -SHADOWRUN- comes out on top, too bad everyone can't be Bunnies and Rainbows, OOCly.

[Synner]

Though we used to have plans for those trees. Well, maybe not the trees, but related to the trees. Ghost Cartels was supposed to be the start to something ongoing. Not sure if it still is or not.

Man, did I have long term plans for that story, who knows though, I might still find a way to tell the full tale behind the Dream Seed.

[Big Freaky Sean]

Though we used to have plans for those trees. Well, maybe not the trees, but related to the trees. Ghost Cartels was supposed to be the start to something ongoing. Not sure if it still is or not.

I just hope it had nothing to do with "The Happening"

[JM Hardy]

I just hope it had nothing to do with "The Happening"

<rapidly rewrites computer files>

Not any more, it doesn't!

Jason H.

[Darkeus]

So, license still up in the air?

[Stahlseele]

yes.

[Big Freaky Sean]

The Facebook Shadowrun says there might be some sort of Shadowrun related announcement tomorrow.

[Stahlseele]

i'm still hoping to get the opportunity to talk to some of the german officials at nordcon . .

[BeeRockxs]

i'm still hoping to get the opportunity to talk to some of the german officials at nordcon . .

I don't believe they'll be able to tell you anything, afaik they have the license from CGL, not from Topps.

[knasser]

I don't believe they'll be able to tell you anything, afaik they have the license from CGL, not from Topps.

Yes, but CGL might be required to tell them. If a business partner asks to know whether or not they're allowed to print a book, you need to give them an answer. And given their concerns and relevance to the value of the property, it wouldn't be unreasonable, if everything is decided, for them to go to Topps and ask them "look. we have a licence from CGL to publish this stuff, is it legitimate or not?" and expect an answer. Not saying they'll say anything, but there's plenty of reason that they could.

K.

[Grinder]

<rapidly rewrites computer files>

Not any more, it doesn't!

Jason H.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Caadium]

Yes, but CGL might be required to tell them. If a business partner asks to know whether or not they're allowed to print a book, you need to give them an answer. And given their concerns and relevance to the value of the property, it wouldn't be unreasonable, if everything is decided, for them to go to Topps and ask them "look. we have a licence from CGL to publish this stuff, is it legitimate or not?" and expect an answer. Not saying they'll say anything, but there's plenty of reason that they could.

K.

You say that you "need to give them an answer." Eventually that is true, but it might not be until til blanket announcement is made to all. You SHOULD tell your partners whats going on. Not telling your partners if you had lost the license or not, allowing them to continue to spend money as if you had kept it, is akin to taking money out of the bank accounts without telling your business partner. Oh, wait ...

Sorry, but I see no reason that German officials, or any other partnership for that matter, would be treated better than the partners that the Coleman's work directly with on a regular basis. Assuming that they'd do this out of some "need to do the right thing" is just not credit I can give to the heads of IMR/CGL at this time.

[macd21]

I find this one pretty interesting since it means that a company could theoretically use the current SR mechanics for their own game, provided that they changed/reworded the rules explanation. It does explain why so many systems look like D&D with their 6 stats.

Well, the 6 stats thing doesn't really have anything to do with copyright, but yes, if you know what you are doing you can use the system from an existing game for your own material. Kenzerco, for example, decided they didn't like the CGL WotC released for 4ed, so went ahead and published 4ed material without signing it. However Kenzerco is run by an IP lawyer who knows exactly what you can and can't publish in this situation. If you aren't careful you can end up with some very high legal fees (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[Abstruse]

Oh my dear god...I came back to the forums after an absence of a few years because some friends wanted me to run a Shadowrun campaign and WTF is going on?! The intrigue and speculation levels in this thread alone (I haven't even read the other 7) is better than some of the ones in shadowtalks! Yeesh. God, so many posts I wanted to respond to with something, but I forced myself to wait until I read the whole thing...now I can't remember it all. Just a lot of horrible misunderstanding of copyright law and what exactly work-for-hire is.

I will say this though. For whoever said there are tons of fans willing to just hop on-board and take over...read some fanfic on the web sometime. That's what happens when fans try to write. The results range somewhere between "That's not half bad" to "OMFG I JUST TORE OUT MY OWN EYES FROM THE HORROR!!!!" Professional writing is not easy. Hell, I've been a Shadowrun fan since I was 13 years old. I'm friggin' THIRTY at this point. I'm a fairly decent writer. However, I wouldn't dream of trying to freelance for Shadowrun. Why? Because I've spent the last 8 years writing screenplays almost exclusively. Writing prose, for me, is a difficult and long process which drives me insane, and I haven't written anything game related other than my old posts on here and notes for my GM/DM/STing various games, which is hardly the same thing as writing for publication, even just an adventure. I also have a day job that I can't quit because I have fixed bills, which means even a 3 day turnaround on rewrites would be impossible for me most times, let alone the one hour turnaround someone said they were asked for at one point.

As far as the battle on the freelancers, I'm on the freelancer's side on this one. Maybe it has something to do with being in their shoes quite a few times, but I will say this...this is not a battle over work that was done and not paid for. I've got something like 150 megs of stuff I've written I've never gotten paid a dime for (all in .txt, .doc, etc formats where a 300 page book is only a couple hundred kilobytes). If a freelancer is upset they worked and didn't get paid, they're in the wrong business because manuscripts can get rejected for almost any reason. The problem is not getting paid for work that has been published.

Let's use the time-honored widgets as an example. You make widgets. You provide this widgets to Company X. Company X then uses these widgets to create something and sells it, making a profit. Woohoo! Oh, wait, Company X hasn't paid you for the last shipment of widgets and are asking for another one. Are you REALLY going to give them more widgets when they haven't paid you for the widgets they've already used to make money?

This actually happens in ANY industry. Whether the widgets are writing, groceries for a restaurant, custom-printed magnets, a pallet of ceramic tile, or anything. The supplier supplies the goods. After a certain period of time, that bill has to be repaid. Rinse, repeat. If a supplier isn't paid on time, they will either suspend delivery until the bill is paid or they will reduce the line of credit. The easiest way to tell if a company is on its way out is to call its suppliers and ask how much credit they have. If it's 30 days or more, the company's doing great. If they're at a week -- or worse, COD -- that company is on its way out and is probably scrambling.

In the publishing industry, the freelancers are usually the ones shortchanged first. Then it's artists. Then the printer. The reason it's done that way is that the freelancers can fuck you the least immediately. Even if every freelancer you has pulls their copyright for works you haven't paid for, odds are those are ones you're still typesetting or proofing. The ones coming off the printers most likely have already been paid off since the final draft of the writing and editing was done on those at least a year ago (at least for traditional print -- the timeline may be shorter in gaming books). The printers are the LAST ones you stiff money because they can kill any income immediately. If it's not in the distributor's warehouse, you're never going to have the book If you don't have the book, you don't have a product and you're dead.

The reasoning is the same as people who overdraft their bank accounts or get those payday loans or "direct deposit advances". Take a short-term financial risk in hopes that you can keep yourself afloat long enough to make more money and pay it back. The unfortunate part is how many times that will fail.

Oh, and if I see one more person say "guilty until proven innocent" in referring to a civil suit in the US, I'm going to get my lawyer cousin to smack you upside the head with a cluehammer. That's for CRIMINAL trials. Same thing with "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a CIVIL case (which my cousin has to spend half an hour lecturing jurors on in this country because they do NOT understand the concept), it's about "preponderance of the evidence". If I sue you for something, I don't have to show enough proof that shows my side is right beyond a reasonable doubt. I just have to have more and/or stronger evidence than you do that I am owed damages under the law. If I have a hand-written note I made on a post-it last night and you have nothing at all, I win because I have more evidence.

For the record, I have never worked in the game publishing industry and anything I said above comes from my personal experience/research and that of people I know. I don't know anything about the gaming industry and everything above is about the publishing industry in general or just plain old Economics 101 (which, BTW, the best primer I ever got on how economics work was the old Corporate Shadowfiles book...shame my copy's falling apart)

[Ancient History]

<pat pat> Welcome back Abstruse. Care for a freebie?

[Abstruse]

Well, the 6 stats thing doesn't really have anything to do with copyright, but yes, if you know what you are doing you can use the system from an existing game for your own material. Kenzerco, for example, decided they didn't like the CGL WotC released for 4ed, so went ahead and published 4ed material without signing it. However Kenzerco is run by an IP lawyer who knows exactly what you can and can't publish in this situation. If you aren't careful you can end up with some very high legal fees (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

Ooooh, do NOT encourage the poor guy. A friend of mine and I decided, when OGL was launched back with D&D 3e, to start trying to come up with something to sell online cheap. There is a LOOOOOOT of murky legal waters when you have a company that's flat-out SAYING you can use their IP. The problem comes in exactly what you can use and what you can't. There's a reason why it's Quickness and not Dexterity and Body not Constitution in Shadowrun. The more you can modify your work, the better.

And the reason that 6 was the standard for so long was because no one saw reason to increase it until White Wolf came along. The standard six attributes cover pretty much all the basics for what you need to know about a character's attributes (in the non-game-term sense). Sure, Shadowrun 1-3 had Reflex/Essense/Magic, but they weren't "real" attributes like Str, Qui, etc. were.

There's a long history of one gaming company taking good ideas from others. D&D was the basis for all the ones to come later. Mechwarrior and Shadowrun (as well as the early licensed FASA stuff) added a skill system and the infamous chargen table, which White Wolf expanded on and D&D 3rd Ed switched to instead of the god-awful proficiency system they had before for non-combat stuff. White Wolf did the 9 attributes, dice pool of Attribute + Skill, and (with NWoD) the fixed target number. SR4 took those and worked it into their system as well as borrowing the Edge attribute from Mechwarrior (replacing the old Dice Pools from earlier SR editions). When Magic: The Gathering came out, there were at least a dozen games I remember that had almost cookie-cutter game mechanics even if they made no sense in context of that game (some martial arts game from 93 or 94 comes to mind immediately, even if the name for it doesn't). D&D 4e took the powers system from Everquest/WoW, both of which were modeled extensively off pen-and-paper RPGs for their mechanics.

But remember...and this is important...every single one of those companies had lawyers who were well paid to make sure that they were on the up-and-up when using material that was pioneered with another system.

[Abstruse]

<pat pat> Welcome back Abstruse. Care for a freebie?

Thanks...I got at least half those off your site already -- went there even before I came to Dumpshock (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Hadn't looked up the thread on those yet.

Sorry about what's going on, but glad to see your passion for the game and the world has (so far at least) let you overcome the drama. You're one of the few people out there that can thoroughly school me on the Shadowrun metaplot and I'd hate to lose you from the community altogether over corporate crap.