Disallowed in Your Game Options

[Eimi]

I fully agree. My point was merely that being a SINner isn't all that bad - SINless getting a fake SIN linked to a crime is in exactly the same boat regarding biometric data and such. And even with fake SINs, you can't be careless about having your "identity" exposed.

Right. If a SINner and a SINless both leave incriminating evidence while running on a fake SIN, they're both going to wind up in a database somewhere regarding that fake SIN, any biometric data involved, etc. The only difference is that the SINner may also have their SIN 'updated', and any known associates, relatives, etc connected to it might get questioned, or, in the case of really nasty people, threatened, or whatnot. Whereas the SINless won't have any records of such connections to harass. So, advantage SINless, but SINner IS a negative quality. It's supposed to provide some trouble.

On the other hand, I don't see how being a SINner is actually going to make it any easier to identify you in the short term, on a run or just after one, and I doubt that a fake SIN failing is going to automatically alert someone along the lines of 'Oh hey, here's their real SIN'. If they actually CATCH you, yes, the SINner may wind up with various agencies/groups/corps already having interest in you, increasing your legal liability considerably. On the other hand, if you're SINless, but have had the same number of fake SINs fail or wind up needing to be burned, those same people will likely have built their own composite of your information, and might just track you down while you're in 'processing', which can last as long as whoever holds you feel like it, since you have no legal rights.

SINner and Criminal SINner are supposed to be largely hooks for story, not some sort of magical database-fu for you to be (much) more easily caught in the first place. I mean, assuming you're living a generally runner-friendly lifestyle, rather than living a double life and still making everyday use of that SIN in the first place. That's a bit more risky, but that's more of an RP choice than anything.

[Straight Razor]

mage goggles, fiber optics

those sunglasses you can buy in any toy store, in RL, that have the outside edge, on the inside, mirrored; so as you can see behind you. spy glasses

boar rounds

flash-pack, ultrasound goggles; disco-Physical adept

Irish giants that dress like leprechauns.

killing blue eyed, blond hair children, before they have the chance to become a plot device.

[Smokeskin]

Mind Probe, Control Mind, Divination, Psychometry, UWB Radar, etc.: These can so easily ruin any attempt at telling a story or presenting a challenge. Anything that effortlessly removes my ability to keep central plot elements hidden is banned.

Ridiculous amounts of soak dice, Spirits' IMtNW as Hardened Armor: If you want to not be threatened by small arms fire, you have to bring a power suit or an armored vehicle. Most types of power gaming don't bother me, but when I can't realistically throw anything at a PC that threatens him, and things that merely scratch him instantly mincemeats his team members, things just stop working.

[Karoline]

Spirits' IMtNW as Hardened Armor

How do you deal with a Spirit's IMtNW then? Are they just totally immune to anything that isn't magic? Or do you ignore IMtNW entirely and they just have normal armor?

[Smokeskin]

They just get it as regular armor.

[Mäx]

They just get it as regular armor.

Is there a particular reason for this major nerf of spirits.

[Karoline]

They just get it as regular armor.

So in your game high force spirits get laughed at. Gotcha. As Max asked, any particular reason for this?

[BobChuck]

In the game I have just started running, I haven't disallowed anything, as long as it's in the core book - first time with new system = keep things basic.

Stuff outside the core is case-by-case: chameleon coating on car = OK, tradition from Street Magic = OK, absurd optimizations from Unwired = Not OK (they do not make your character better, just force me to do more prep, as anything you have, they would have).

I've also reduced the effectiveness of certain things:

Spirits - Immunity to Nonmagical Weapons = Force, not Force x2
Spirits - An "overcast" summoning spell will have the spirit automatically use Edge to resist

Dice Pools - at the moment, everything is capped at 20. Note that this is dice pools, so before splitting / applying modifiers.

Electrical - Players simply asked not to use SnS, Stun Baton, etc, due to the rules complications that result.
So far, no issues with above; should it come up:
Electrical - Threshold for stun/penalty is "net hits on attack roll", not "3" (not realistic, but easy)
Electrical - Damage for SnS, Stun Baton, etc is halved

[Smokeskin]

You can't do anything to my un-hardened spirits that you can't do to hardened spirits with Stick-n-Shock by RAW.

I didn't want SnS to be the be-all-end-all of ammo, so I houseruled them to fit a less-than-lethal role. Then spirits couldn't be countered by mundanes. So I removed their hardened armor.

Going by RAW, where everyone just loads SnS to effectively remove their hardened armor anyway, is really no different with regards to balance, except people without guns can fight spirits too under my houserule.

[Karoline]

Spirits - Immunity to Nonmagical Weapons = Force, not Force x2

You are aware this makes immunity worthless, right? A heavy pistol (without special ammo) has 5P damage and AP of -1, this means that it can damage an F6 spirit without any trouble (AP reduces armor to 5, and have to get at least 1 net hit to hit the spirit anyway, so automatically breaks immunity).

Throw some APDS ammo into the pistol and it can take on an F10 spirit without flinching.

[Elfenlied]

Well, I don't believe you're supposed to hurt high-force spirits with anything short of milspec weaponry. A Force 8+ spirit is the magical equivalent of a MBT. If you're expecting to fight those on a regular basis, bring some weapon foci, magic support or Gauss/Laser/Elemental weapons.

[Karoline]

You can't do anything to my un-hardened spirits that you can't do to hardened spirits with Stick-n-Shock by RAW.

I didn't want SnS to be the be-all-end-all of ammo, so I houseruled them to fit a less-than-lethal role. Then spirits couldn't be countered by mundanes. So I removed their hardened armor.

Going by RAW, where everyone just loads SnS to effectively remove their hardened armor anyway, is really no different with regards to balance, except people without guns can fight spirits too under my houserule.

I do agree that SnS is absurdly effective in fighting off spirits, but that is more of a problem with SnS than with spirits. Spirits are supposed to be big bads. SnS took that away, but simply weakening SnS would give it back to them.

[Mäx]

I didn't want SnS to be the be-all-end-all of ammo, so I houseruled them to fit a less-than-lethal role. Then spirits couldn't be countered by mundanes.

What kind of uber spirits are you throwing at your players, if mundanes cant harm then without S&S. Simple heavy pistol loaded with APDS can take out force 5 spirits quite easily.
A douple barreled shotgun unloading both barrels with APDS can take out force 7 ones with relative ease.
And the hunting rifle of doom unloading both barrels of APDS can do the same eaven easier
Sniper rifles can also make shrot work of spirits of relativly high force.

[Darkeus]

The only thing I disallow is teh emotitoy. I think those things are goofy and a good way to break the game. Plus, they are not very Shadowrun like in theme.

Other than that, I am usually fair game. My group is new to Shadowrun so I have basically restricted them to the Core Book for now. As tehy gain experience, I will throw new stuff at them to mess around with and introduce new rules. It lets my players slowly become acclimated to the game and allows me to take it slow and resist the temptation to screw them too early! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh yeah, Stick N Shock does not work on spirits like most would like it too. It is not a spirit killer in my game. Nope.

That is what an attack of will is for and has always been for. If you need to deal with a spirit, have a mage around for maximum spirit killing or make an attack of will.

[sabs]

I find that a HMG on a gyro mount with EX-EX works wonders for manifested spirits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smokeskin]

What kind of uber spirits are you throwing at your players, if mundanes cant harm then without S&S. Simple heavy pistol loaded with APDS can take out force 5 spirits quite easily.
A douple barreled shotgun unloading both barrels with APDS can take out force 7 ones with relative ease.

I'm not talking about what I throw at players, I'm talking about what the players throw at NPCs. By RAW a few 3 agi 3 pistols guards with heavy pistols can't even touch a force 6-7 spirit unless they have SnS ammo, in which case they easily gun it down. I don't like everyone having to carry SnS, and I don't like a mage with no visible weaponry or armor being able to summon a spirit that is effectively invulnerable.

[sabs]

Rule #1 of Lone Star
If there's a guy running around with chromeboys, and he has no visible armor or weapons. Kill him first.

[Mäx]

I'm not talking about what I throw at players, I'm talking about what the players throw at NPCs. By RAW a few 3 agi 3 pistols guards with heavy pistols can't even touch a force 6-7 spirit unless they have SnS ammo, in which case they easily gun it down.

S&S does jack shit at helping agi 3 pistols 3 guards at taking out spirits. those spirits have lot more dice to dotge then those guys have to shoot, so their very raraly even gonna hit and S&S doesn't help with that.
Grunts are SOL if PC.s summon relativly high force spirits S&S or no S&S.

[Smokeskin]

Well, I don't believe you're supposed to hurt high-force spirits with anything short of milspec weaponry. A Force 8+ spirit is the magical equivalent of a MBT. If you're expecting to fight those on a regular basis, bring some weapon foci, magic support or Gauss/Laser/Elemental weapons.

Spirits, even force 8+, are very easily taken down with SnS ammo. Spirits are not some big bad invincible things.

[Smokeskin]

I do agree that SnS is absurdly effective in fighting off spirits, but that is more of a problem with SnS than with spirits. Spirits are supposed to be big bads. SnS took that away, but simply weakening SnS would give it back to them.

By RAW, spirits are easy to take down. I preferred to keep spirit survivability at the RAW level while nerfing SnS rounds.

If you think that spirits aren't powerful enough by RAW, go ahead and nerf their only easy counter.

[Darkeus]

Spirits have an easy counter. It is called magic/banishing.

[Squiddy Attack]

PCs doing anything with personafixes has also been banned in our game, and the GM stated any use of them would bring a THOR shot.

[Smokeskin]

S&S does jack shit at helping agi 3 pistols 3 guards at taking out spirits. those spirits have lot more dice to dotge then those guys have to shoot, so their very raraly even gonna hit and S&S doesn't help with that.
Grunts are SOL if PC.s summon relativly high force spirits S&S or no S&S.

Not really. Even 3 grunts with SA weapons gets 6 shots total, by the last shot the spirit is down 5 dice for defense, which will give the grunt a larger dice pool. Statistically, even a high force spirit will take a few hits, and even against a force 7 spirit the guards only need 2 net hits to penetrate the hardened armor (or a +1DV called shot to penetrate the hardened armor every time). If it gets in melee, its defense pool goes down -3 dice, making hits even more likely, plus the grunts can move in to point blank range for another +2 dice on their attack.

They really aren't a problem to take down in open combat, even for a few grunts.

[Stahlseele]

Aside from the ITNW and the fact that the other RUNNERS are not gonna ignore the grunts.

[Mäx]

Not really. Even 3 grunts with SA weapons gets 6 shots total, by the last shot the spirit is down 5 dice for defense, which will give the grunt a larger dice pool. Statistically, even a high force spirit will take a few hits, and even against a force 7 spirit the guards only need 2 net hits to penetrate the hardened armor (or a +1DV called shot to penetrate the hardened armor every time). If it gets in melee, its defense pool goes down -3 dice, making hits even more likely, plus the grunts can move in to point blank range for another +2 dice on their attack.

They really aren't a problem to take down in open combat, even for a few grunts.

Those grunts have 6 dice to shoot that spirit, before modifiers probaply -2 from visibility and maybe -1 or even -3 from range(spirits powers are LOS range, no need to get close) leaving them with 1-4 dice most likely, i doupt their getting in 2 net hits even if there are 3-4 of them shooting that spirit.
Also if they're in point blank range then thy'r most likely in melee with the spirit meaning -3 dice to shoot compined with the bonus thats effective -1.
And ofcource what Stahlseele said about the runners also beign there.