Disallowed in Your Game Options

[sabs]

Why are they not doing wide bursts?
Why are there only 3?

Your guards are out manned, and out gunned, and you're complaining they're going to lose?

[Karoline]

If it gets in melee, its defense pool goes down -3 dice

Wait, what? Since when does being in melee give you a defensive penalty against ranged attacks?

They really aren't a problem to take down in open combat, even for a few grunts.

Yeah, sure, if three of them take turns firing single shots at the spirit, it might be a bit of a problem, and if there is no one else they have to worry about, and if the spirit is just standing there waiting to be shot at, and if the spirit doesn't dodge to double its DP.

If a spirit is getting taken out by mooks, then the mage is doing a very bad job of using their spirit, SnS or no SnS, IMtNW or no IMtNW.

[BobChuck]

You are aware this makes immunity worthless, right? A heavy pistol (without special ammo) has 5P damage and AP of -1, this means that it can damage an F6 spirit without any trouble (AP reduces armor to 5, and have to get at least 1 net hit to hit the spirit anyway, so automatically breaks immunity).

Throw some APDS ammo into the pistol and it can take on an F10 spirit without flinching.

So what's the solution then? Give me a good fix that isn't the even more broken alternative of by-the-book Stick and Shock. One that lets basic shadowrunners who aren't min-max builds deal with a rank 3 spirit. One that let's non-mages fight off a spirit when it goes after them.

Because I've checked the forums, I've asked several times, and no one has a good answer to this problem.

[Lanlaorn]

So what's the solution then? Give me a good fix that isn't the even more broken alternative of by-the-book Stick and Shock. One that lets basic shadowrunners who aren't min-max builds deal with a rank 3 spirit.

Bring a Mage or an Adept? Is this really that hard? I'm pretty sure Stunbolt will do a fine job here!

[Mordinvan]

I've heard of Johnsons putting bullets in those when they see em'.

You've heard of someone drawing a gun, aiming it at a runner, squeezing the trigger, not killing the runner and living? That I don't believe.

[Doc Chase]

You've heard of someone drawing a gun, aiming it at a runner, squeezing the trigger, not killing the runner and living? That I don't believe.

I believe it. As long as this is happening about 500 yards out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Karoline]

Bring a Mage or an Adept? Is this really that hard? I'm pretty sure Stunbolt will do a fine job here!

That is the general solution. In the words of Uncle "Magic must defeat Magic!"

Mundanes have terrible defense against magic in general. They can't resist anything beyond a F1 spell with any real likelyhood, they can't see even a weakling 1 magic mage that casts invisibility, they can't take down a spirit.

That said, it isn't so horrid. An F3 spirit is injured by 1 net hit on a heavy pistol, an F4 spirit by 2 net hits on an assault rifle, an F5 spirit by 1 net hit on a heavy pistol loaded with APDS, or 1 net hit on an assault rifle with EXEX rounds. An F6 spirit only needs APDS rounds in an assault rifle to make it an easy 1 net hit target. And once you get past that you have to start looking at heavy weaponry or skilled opponents, but once you get past that, you really shouldn't be looking at mooks having a hope of doing anything except annoying the spirit.

[Runner Smurf]

BobChuck -

I think the solution is to modify the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. I'm toying with changing it in my game, mainly to deal with the egg-shell problem that spirits have (e.g. once you pierce the Immunity, they tend to die instantly).

My first idea is to go with Immunity meaning that damage against them is immediately reduced by their force. Against a force 5 spirit, an 8P attack immediately becomes 3P, and then they get to roll Body + Force to soak the remaining damage. I'd have to noodle it some more to see if there are any problems, but I thought I'd toss it out for general consumption.

[Darkeus]

Again, mundanes shouldn't exactly have a defense against spirits. If your group is mostly mundanes, your GM should be running mostly mundane opposition. Mundanes have an option called an attack of will to damage a spirit, that is about it. If you can get some good dice rolls and get past the hardened armor then congrats but otherwise, hire a NPC mage or something.

[Doc Chase]

Again, mundanes shouldn't exactly have a defense against spirits. If your group is mostly mundanes, your GM should be running mostly mundane opposition. Mundanes have an option called an attack of will to damage a spirit, that is about it. If you can get some good dice rolls and get past the hardened armor then congrats but otherwise, hire a NPC mage or something.

Just to clarify, attacks of will bypass ITNW/hardened on spirits.

I find that everyone has options against spirits. High STR characters bypass the ITNW just by overdamaging - gunbunnies are the same way. Mages have the quickest and easiest option, whereas Faces and other high-Charisma/middling Willpower characters have the attack of will option to disrupt the spirit with their cult of personality.

The options aren't great, but there are options nonetheless.

[DireRadiant]

So what's the solution then? Give me a good fix that isn't the even more broken alternative of by-the-book Stick and Shock. One that lets basic shadowrunners who aren't min-max builds deal with a rank 3 spirit. One that let's non-mages fight off a spirit when it goes after them.

Because I've checked the forums, I've asked several times, and no one has a good answer to this problem.

I disagree with your claim that this is a problem.

[Darkeus]

Just to clarify, attacks of will bypass ITNW/hardened on spirits.

I find that everyone has options against spirits. High STR characters bypass the ITNW just by overdamaging - gunbunnies are the same way. Mages have the quickest and easiest option, whereas Faces and other high-Charisma/middling Willpower characters have the attack of will option to disrupt the spirit with their cult of personality.

The options aren't great, but there are options nonetheless.

I think we are pretty much agree on all counts about this subject. Mundanes have options but they don't have easy options. Magic should be your best counter against spirits. Stick N Shock just does not work how people want it to.

[X-Kalibur]

Okay fine, nerf SnS. Now all runners carry tasers for spirits. Now what? You're just going to get into an endless cycle of problem and supposed "fix".

[Smokeskin]

Wait, what? Since when does being in melee give you a defensive penalty against ranged attacks?

Funny you don't look in your book first, but anyways:

SR4A p. 160 / SR4 p. 151

Defender in Melee Combat
A character dodging and weaving in melee combat with another opponent
has a more difficult time dodging attackers coming from a
distance. The defender suffers a –3 dice pool modifier against ranged
attacks, regardless of how many characters he is in melee with.

If a spirit is getting taken out by mooks, then the mage is doing a very bad job of using their spirit, SnS or no SnS, IMtNW or no IMtNW.

That's not the argument here. I don't have spirit ItNW act as hardened armor, people ask why I nerf spirits like that, I demonstrate that by RAW even grunts with SnS in SA weapons can easily bypass the hardening, from which it follows that removing the hardening isn't a nerf to spirits.

People are simply mistaken in their belief that hardening does much for spirit survivability - all it does is cause people to equip themselves with SnS ammo to counter it. Removing the hardening isn't a nerf, it merely opens more ammo options (and allows me to nerf SnS without upsetting game balance).

[Darkeus]

Who says tasers work? Same reason Stick N Shock doesn't work in my campaign. The needles will never get past the hardening. To me, it kind of kills my suspension of belief that a little hook can totally frag a spirit with hardened-like armor. The taser does not send out an electric arc; a taser shoots a wire that hooks into you that delivers an electric shock. To think that a hook could latch on to something that is suppose to be able to bounce bullets and regular melee attacks off of it is just ludicrous in my opinion.

[DrZaius]

Okay fine, nerf SnS. Now all runners carry tasers for spirits. Now what? You're just going to get into an endless cycle of problem and supposed "fix".

My plan for my game is to identify which items I take issue with (Stick n' Shock, Control Thoughts) that I think 'break' the game and cause more problems then they're worth, talk with my players, and see if we can come to an agreement. The list isn't endless. Getting rid of things like Stick N' Shock for the purpose of everyone having fun is partially to prevent an endless arms race between players and GM (i.e. making as a GM having to use Force 10 Spirits because all my potential players are loaded out with Stick N' Shock or what have you.) If you as a GM or a player feel these types of house-rules are too restrictive, that's fine, I doubt I'll see you at my table anytime soon anyways.

[Karoline]

Okay fine, nerf SnS. Now all runners carry tasers for spirits. Now what? You're just going to get into an endless cycle of problem and supposed "fix".

Personally I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with tasers being required to take out spirits for mundanes. It is an extra weapon that has to be carried, it is an extra weapon that someone needs to be skilled in, it has a short range and extremely limited fire rate and wonky ammo that can't be changed out for anything else. All in all, I'd say that is a fairly decent compromise for being able to injure spirits.

As for fixing hardened armor, I've seen several suggestions for how, but my favorite remains that hardened armor soak dice are automatic hits. Should still be left at F*2 rating though, otherwise any weapon with APDS will make all but the most powerful spirits cry as they lose their armor.

[Smokeskin]

Okay fine, nerf SnS. Now all runners carry tasers for spirits. Now what? You're just going to get into an endless cycle of problem and supposed "fix".

Actually, by fixing the real problem - the hardened armor in ItNW - people aren't dependent on -half AP weapons to counter spirits.

[DrZaius]

Personally I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with tasers being required to take out spirits for mundanes. It is an extra weapon that has to be carried, it is an extra weapon that someone needs to be skilled in, it has a short range and extremely limited fire rate and wonky ammo that can't be changed out for anything else. All in all, I'd say that is a fairly decent compromise for being able to injure spirits.

As for fixing hardened armor, I've seen several suggestions for how, but my favorite remains that hardened armor soak dice are automatic hits. Should still be left at F*2 rating though, otherwise any weapon with APDS will make all but the most powerful spirits cry as they lose their armor.

The problem is that the game uses the same armor system for a variety of different types of armor. I don't think a spirit's 'natural' armor is a 1:1 analog with a 2070 kevlar vest. But because certain items exist in the game (APDS ammo, which is specifically designed to penetrate metahuman body armor and makes perfect sense), it also (by way of game mechanics) penetrates the etheral natural defenses of a magical creature.

[Mordinvan]

I'm currently thinking of banning Erased, but that might just be because one of my players believes it's a Get Out of Jail Free Card.

No, you're still in jail, it is however an erase all digital copies of any evidence or reports related to your character. Also its not 'free' you did pay 10 BP for the 'good' version of it, but those are likely the 10 best BP in the game.

[Dissonance]

Why not have the immunity do something like Force+3?

[sabs]

No, you're still in jail, it is however an erase all digital copies of any evidence or reports related to your character. Also its not 'free' you did pay 10 BP for the 'good' version of it, but those are likely the 10 best BP in the game.

And they specifically say:
You're still in jail. Just now no one knows why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

And they specifically say:
You're still in jail. Just now no one knows why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But you're a SINless, so they don't really care (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mordinvan]

I believe it. As long as this is happening about 500 yards out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In that case maybe, I was more thinking across a table.

[Mordinvan]

BobChuck -

I think the solution is to modify the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. I'm toying with changing it in my game, mainly to deal with the egg-shell problem that spirits have (e.g. once you pierce the Immunity, they tend to die instantly).

My first idea is to go with Immunity meaning that damage against them is immediately reduced by their force. Against a force 5 spirit, an 8P attack immediately becomes 3P, and then they get to roll Body + Force to soak the remaining damage. I'd have to noodle it some more to see if there are any problems, but I thought I'd toss it out for general consumption.

I think that is a nice solution. It does however mean that uber spirits will really need anti-tank grade weapons to effect them. No so much complaining about that, just stating a fact.