Improving Skills in Missions, I must have missed something. Options

[suoq]

SR4A, pg 270

To learn or improve a skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an Extended Intuition + skill Test, with a threshold equal to the new skill rating x 2 and an interval of 1 week (1 month for skill groups). A teacher can add bonus dice to this test (see Using Instruction, p. 134).

Can someone walk me though this? For example, I don't see how a character with Intuition of 3 or less ever learns or improves a skill since I thought extended tests were done at the 4:1 buy instead of rolling.

At Intuition 3 and skill 0 you get, no hits so no new skill.
At intuition 3 and skill 1 you get 1 hit but need 4 hits for a new skill of 2.
At intuition 3 and skill 2, you get 2 hits after 2 weeks, but need 6 hits total.

I know I'm missing something, but I don't know what it is.

And correct me if I'm wrong but I can just keep pumping points into attributes and specializations with no extended tests, or did I miss something there as well?

[TranKirsaKali]

SR4A, pg 270


Can someone walk me though this? For example, I don't see how a character with Intuition of 3 or less ever learns or improves a skill since I thought extended tests were done at the 4:1 buy instead of rolling.

At Intuition 3 and skill 0 you get, no hits so no new skill.
At intuition 3 and skill 1 you get 1 hit but need 4 hits for a new skill of 2.
At intuition 3 and skill 2, you get 2 hits after 2 weeks, but need 6 hits total.

I know I'm missing something, but I don't know what it is.

And correct me if I'm wrong but I can just keep pumping points into attributes and specializations with no extended tests, or did I miss something there as well?

You don't put more points in specializations. They are just a 2 point bonus to a skill. So if you take specialization Combat casting you only take it once, you can not have a +4 in it. Pg 68 in 4a states you can only have one specialization in a skill. Pg 121 4a goes into more detail.

As for the first part of this. I have never run into a GM that would not let you roll at the table if there was enough time after you finished the missions. If we ran out of time we were out of luck. The 4:1 rule is for in between missions when you do not have a GM around to help you out.

[suoq]

You don't put more points in specializations. They are just a 2 point bonus to a skill.

My statement was more along the line of "I can go from 4 pistols to 4 pistols + 2 in semi automatics in zero time but to go from 4 pistols to 5 pistols requires 10 successes on an extended test with a 1 week interval.

If I start off with 4 in the skill and a 3 intuition I'll have (7+6+5+4+3+2+1) 28 dice over 7 weeks of training to hope I roll a little bit better than average because I need 10 hits to get +1 in pistols instead of getting +2 in semi automatics by just deciding to specialize.

Please forgive me but I do think I'm missing something important here because it sounds like a BBC comedy sketch.

I know I just got my head around using contacts to buy stuff and I still haven't figured out how to actually get the modifications I've purchased installed. I'd like to think I'm misunderstanding spending karma on skills as well.

[suoq]

Reading this, I'm tempted to give up.

Can I upgrade gear, learn skills, or perform other downtime activities between adventures?
All skill tests made during downtime are done by buying hits and using the standard rules for limited Extended Tests (cumulative
-1 per test, p. 64, SR4A). Assistants and instructors also buy hits for their tests.

(So, doing the roll at the table isn't the way it should be done in missions.)

Downtime between adventures allows for modification of gear. For weapon and vehicle modifications, you must have the appropriate tools for the modification and use the thresholds from Arsenal. Per p. 129, Arsenal, weapon modifications have an interval of 2 hours and vehicle modifications will have an interval of 6 hours. If you have purchased the appropriate tools , you must have a lifestyle with enough space (Middle for a shop and High for facility). Runner’s Companion, Lifestyle Rules on p. 160 allow for shops and facilities with the appropriate amenities.

I would need a logic+armorer skill of 7 to install an Extended Clip or folding stock.

Purchasing gear between adventures is done in the same manner, with a threshold of the gear’s Availability and interval based on cost (Availability Test, p. 312, SR4A). Your character may perform this test herself or have one of her contacts do it.

I thought the team face could do it during downtime, but again, that appears to be wrong.

I know I have to be out in left field here. Should I just be ignoring all of this stuff?

[KarmaInferno]

It's not just skills.

Buying 4:1 hits on ANY degrading extended test means that unless you have a starting dice pool of 12 or higher, you can't hit any real decent thresholds on any given test.

CODE

Dice Pool  Max Threshold
4          1
5          2
6          3
7          4
8          6
9          8
10         10
11         12
12         15

At 12 and above you start seeing better results, but as you can see, with a Dice Pool of 7 can never, ever hit a Threshold of 5 or above. 7 is NOT a bad amount of dice - that represents someone who is well trained for the task and very capable at it.

At least when buying stuff you can increase your dice pool with cash. Most other tests don't have that luxury.

The 4:1 ratio coupled with degrading is just prohibitive.

I'm having to cheese-weasel my rigger character by buying Profession autosofts for her arm-equipped drones, just so I can make it a teamwork instead of solo test for the extra dice, to do even basic modifications to her vehicles. She's got personal dice pools of 7-10 in those skills. I shouldn't be having to do this cheesing of the rules just to function. It shouldn't be THAT hard.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* That's Missions.

[SaintHax]

SR4A, pg 270


Can someone walk me though this? For example, I don't see how a character with Intuition of 3 or less ever learns or improves a skill since I thought extended tests were done at the 4:1 buy instead of rolling.

I think your point is, by SRM rules you can't ever increase your skills. This is correct. Yet, I have-- and I bet every other character in SRM has, b/c we ignore this rule. This is why the 4:1 house rule is stupid. Yes, it "protects" players from playing with people that cheat-- at least the people that aren't clever, or cheat in this one way. It doesn't protect all of us that cheated and raised our skills though, does it?

It's a worthless and stupid rule, and every character in the game should be checked to see if they raised their skill level since it's impossible using the SRM mandates (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

Apparently you can't teach yourself anything, and have to pay for an Instructor. I wonder how bad this is?

Actually, pretty bad. Tutorsofts are Avail. -, cost rating*500 nuyen, and roll rating*2. They come in rating 1-5. Unfortunately, they need to get two hits to give you one dice. So 1-3 does nothing, 4-5 gives you one dice. So you can pay 2000 nuyen to get an extra dice, which still means it is completely impossible for you to learn any skills unless you have Intuition 4 or higher. And there's no rules for hiring an instructor, but they'd need to have Instruction+Charisma of 16 to give you even one more die than the tutorsoft, so that's out.

Oh, and mages/technomancers can't learn magic/resonance skills from tutorsofts. Whee.

I'm curious how this works out.

Intuition 1-3: Cannot learn or improve any skills.

Intuition 4: Cannot learn or improve any resonance or magical skills. For other skills, you can learn rating 1 but cannot improve skills ever.

Intution 5: Can learn resonance or magical skills at rating 1, but cannot improve them ever. You can learn any rating of other skills.

Intuition 6+: Can learn any rating of any skill.

[DireRadiant]

"QUOTE"
Can I upgrade gear, learn skills, or perform other downtime activities between adventures?
All skill tests made during downtime are done by buying hits and using the standard rules for limited Extended Tests (cumulative
-1 per test, p. 64, SR4A). Assistants and instructors also buy hits for their tests.(So, doing the roll at the table isn't the way it should be done in missions.)

(So, doing the roll at the table isn't the way it should be done in missions.)

The "All skill tests made during downtime" bit does not preclude you from making the tests in front of a GM and thus avoiding the buy hits on extended tests.

The extended test buying hits is intended to allow for some rolls to be made without a GM in a known standard reproducible method.

I believe the key word in that statement is "downtime" in the sense of being without a GM, not as the bit between missions. It's standard missions scheduling to allow for a few minutes before and after each table session for bookkeeping.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

I'm with Dire here, At Origins this year I made all my roles in front of the Gm after the Mission was over and then entered the time it took in my mission log calander, adn paid my monthly lifestyle cost if I needed and BAM skill improved. You guys are way over complicating things, stop buying hits and just role the dice, it takes like 30 sec. then just do you book keeping as needed

[Yerameyahu]

They're not complicating things on purpose. Downtime could mean 'no GM present' or 'not during the mission'; knowing which is a big deal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SaintHax]

The "All skill tests made during downtime" bit does not preclude you from making the tests in front of a GM and thus avoiding the buy hits on extended tests.

The extended test buying hits is intended to allow for some rolls to be made without a GM in a known standard reproducible method.

I believe the key word in that statement is "downtime" in the sense of being without a GM, not as the bit between missions. It's standard missions scheduling to allow for a few minutes before and after each table session for bookkeeping.

This is not the way the SRM FAQ reads, nor the previous statements issued by SRM staff. "Down time" has to be the calendar time between adventures-- I can't think of any other plausible way to interprete that. Since an adventure takes days, and learning a new skill takes weeks-- this is a downtime activity.

However, this is another point of why the SRM FAQ house rules screws more players than it "protects". If your group interpretes this differently, and you get to use the RAW, then you have a major advantage over the group that plays by the SRM rules. In addition-- I and everyone I know ignore this rule for SRM, and this would give us a major advantage over suoq.

Maybe Bull will turn this crazy train around; currently I miss SRM00 days.

[suoq]

Note: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27139 is an interesting read on the 4:1 rule.

And I wouldn't worry about an advantage over me. This character, like my last abomination, will never see play outside my game store group because I know I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I know I'm doing it wrong. I'm just trying to figure out how to do it right.

[Wasabi]

A cracked Rating 5 Tutorsoft costs 250 nuyen and adds 5 dice to instruction tests. After 8 weeks of use it becomes a Rating 4 tutorsoft for another 8 weeks. If you're in Hot Sim VR thats another two dice so with an intuition of 2 and skill of 1 you'd have (1+2+5+2=10 dice), therefore:

10 = 2 hits
9 = 2 hits
8 = 2 hits
6 = 1 hit
6 = 1 hit
5 = 1 hit
4 = 1 hit

Total hits with 10 dice pool is 10 hits.

I'll reiterate my sentiments... let the GM decide if they want to allow players to roll and allow Edge diceleft over from the most recent mission to be spent to add dice just without the Rule of Six.

[Yerameyahu]

Um. A Tutorsoft gives the player a DP bonus of 1 per 2 hits on an Instruction Test (DP=Rating*2). Rating 5 gives about 2-3 bonus (2 for 4:1), not 5. The player in your example would roll 5 dice for a (4, 1 week) learning test.

Why do you think that a Tutorsoft in Hot Sim gives +2?

[Wasabi]

Not +2 to the Tutorsoft, +2 to on the test.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. Why? Is it a 'Matrix test'?

[KarmaInferno]

I wouldn't consider it a Matrix Test.

Oddly, the rulebook mentions that Riggers jumped in get the 'same' VR +2 bonus, but goes on to say the bonus applies to all tests.




-karma

[Yerameyahu]

Well, all 'jumped-in' tests, which are automatically relevant vehicle-controlling actions. It's not like a jumped-in Rigger get's a bonus to his Knowledge skills or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wasabi]

Under the description of Hot Sim it says all Matrix Tests, not all Matrix Actions. Matrix Actions are listed such as Hack on the Fly, Matrix Tests are not. Perhaps I've seen The Matrix too many times and consider it normal in full virtual reality to be taught something.

[suoq]

Under the description of Hot Sim it says all Matrix Tests, not all Matrix Actions. Matrix Actions are listed such as Hack on the Fly, Matrix Tests are not. Perhaps I've seen The Matrix too many times and consider it normal in full virtual reality to be taught something.

<Style="not to be taken seriously">Now you know Matrix Kung Fu. When you return to the real world, you will discover that it is real air you're breathing and all that stuff you learned in a computer simulation, like jumping between buildings using your mind, does jack all in real life.</style>

[SaintHax]

A cracked Rating 5 Tutorsoft costs 250 nuyen and adds 5 dice to instruction tests. After 8 weeks of use it becomes a Rating 4 tutorsoft for another 8 weeks. If you're in Hot Sim VR thats another two dice so with an intuition of 2 and skill of 1 you'd have (1+2+5+2=10 dice), therefore:

10 = 2 hits
9 = 2 hits
8 = 2 hits
6 = 1 hit
6 = 1 hit
5 = 1 hit
4 = 1 hit

Total hits with 10 dice pool is 10 hits.

I'll reiterate my sentiments... let the GM decide if they want to allow players to roll and allow Edge diceleft over from the most recent mission to be spent to add dice just without the Rule of Six.

Here's how that table would break down, IF (and I don't believe so) hot VR gives a +2 dice bonus to the tutorsoft. TN is 4.

The tutorsoft's pool, tutorsoft hits (every two is a bonus die), base pool, hits
12, 3/2 + 3 = 1
11, 2/2 + 2 = 0
10, 2 + 1 = 0

You can't learn skill level 2. That's rough. Now, let's do someone with a Int = 5, Skill 3, using a Turtor soft 5 (no hot VR) trying to get that skill to 4 (TN 8 ). Kidding, you guys don't need a breakdown for that.

[Yerameyahu]

In my question, I *said* Matrix test, not Matrix action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) AFAIK, the only reason you'd even considered that classification is because a Tutorsoft runs on a computer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Eh.

I'm pretty sure Bull or Chuck told me my very first missions outing that your allowed to approve a skill one rank between missions no problem. That seemed entirely reasonable to me so it's what i've always gone with. Frankly if it's not the rule I'm going to press to the best of my ability that it should be when we go into Season 4. Karma is already the limiter on character advancement as there is only a finite amount of it. I don't see a reason to make players jump through further hoops and book keeping especially combined with the buying hits mechanic and the dice droping extended tests mechanic.

[DireRadiant]

It's up to you guys. If I sign the mission debriefing log and it shows a karma expenditure for improving skills, that should be good enough. If you want me to also sign a mission calendar for rolls and karma expenditure that don't occur at a table, then I would say no. The less you give me to sign and review on a briefing log the better. More time to run a mission.

There's two pieces of paperwork from each mission. The Mission Log and the Missions Calendar. The mission log is at the table, you need it, the player, and the gm all together, that's where it gets signed. You can't do karma expenditure and get the Mission Log signed with the GM being present. The only thing the Mission Calendar does is help you track how long something takes, so you can subtract the appropriate amount of lifestyle between missions. Which also goes on the mission log.

As a GM I am allowed to use my judgement, which would be to allow people to roll dice, if they really want, or accept the nice offer of a beer from the players and sign the sheet. Bull can fire me if he doesn't like it.

If you want to willfully interpret a rule in a way that prevents you from advancing your character, that's fine by me.