SR4A, pg 270


Can someone walk me though this? For example, I don't see how a character with Intuition of 3 or less ever learns or improves a skill since I thought extended tests were done at the 4:1 buy instead of rolling.

At Intuition 3 and skill 0 you get, no hits so no new skill.
At intuition 3 and skill 1 you get 1 hit but need 4 hits for a new skill of 2.
At intuition 3 and skill 2, you get 2 hits after 2 weeks, but need 6 hits total.

I know I'm missing something, but I don't know what it is.

And correct me if I'm wrong but I can just keep pumping points into attributes and specializations with no extended tests, or did I miss something there as well?

You don't put more points in specializations. They are just a 2 point bonus to a skill. So if you take specialization Combat casting you only take it once, you can not have a +4 in it. Pg 68 in 4a states you can only have one specialization in a skill. Pg 121 4a goes into more detail.

As for the first part of this. I have never run into a GM that would not let you roll at the table if there was enough time after you finished the missions. If we ran out of time we were out of luck. The 4:1 rule is for in between missions when you do not have a GM around to help you out.

My statement was more along the line of "I can go from 4 pistols to 4 pistols + 2 in semi automatics in zero time but to go from 4 pistols to 5 pistols requires 10 successes on an extended test with a 1 week interval.

If I start off with 4 in the skill and a 3 intuition I'll have (7+6+5+4+3+2+1) 28 dice over 7 weeks of training to hope I roll a little bit better than average because I need 10 hits to get +1 in pistols instead of getting +2 in semi automatics by just deciding to specialize.

Please forgive me but I do think I'm missing something important here because it sounds like a BBC comedy sketch.

I know I just got my head around using contacts to buy stuff and I still haven't figured out how to actually get the modifications I've purchased installed. I'd like to think I'm misunderstanding spending karma on skills as well.

Reading this, I'm tempted to give up.
(So, doing the roll at the table isn't the way it should be done in missions.)
I would need a logic+armorer skill of 7 to install an Extended Clip or folding stock.
I thought the team face could do it during downtime, but again, that appears to be wrong.

I know I have to be out in left field here. Should I just be ignoring all of this stuff?

It's not just skills.

Buying 4:1 hits on ANY degrading extended test means that unless you have a starting dice pool of 12 or higher, you can't hit any real decent thresholds on any given test.



At 12 and above you start seeing better results, but as you can see, with a Dice Pool of 7 can never, ever hit a Threshold of 5 or above. 7 is NOT a bad amount of dice - that represents someone who is well trained for the task and very capable at it.

At least when buying stuff you can increase your dice pool with cash. Most other tests don't have that luxury.

The 4:1 ratio coupled with degrading is just prohibitive.

I'm having to cheese-weasel my rigger character by buying Profession autosofts for her arm-equipped drones, just so I can make it a teamwork instead of solo test for the extra dice, to do even basic modifications to her vehicles. She's got personal dice pools of 7-10 in those skills. I shouldn't be having to do this cheesing of the rules just to function. It shouldn't be THAT hard.



-karma

*shrug* That's Missions.

I think your point is, by SRM rules you can't ever increase your skills. This is correct. Yet, I have-- and I bet every other character in SRM has, b/c we ignore this rule. This is why the 4:1 house rule is stupid. Yes, it "protects" players from playing with people that cheat-- at least the people that aren't clever, or cheat in this one way. It doesn't protect all of us that cheated and raised our skills though, does it?

It's a worthless and stupid rule, and every character in the game should be checked to see if they raised their skill level since it's impossible using the SRM mandates

Apparently you can't teach yourself anything, and have to pay for an Instructor. I wonder how bad this is?

Actually, pretty bad. Tutorsofts are Avail. -, cost rating*500 nuyen, and roll rating*2. They come in rating 1-5. Unfortunately, they need to get two hits to give you one dice. So 1-3 does nothing, 4-5 gives you one dice. So you can pay 2000 nuyen to get an extra dice, which still means it is completely impossible for you to learn any skills unless you have Intuition 4 or higher. And there's no rules for hiring an instructor, but they'd need to have Instruction+Charisma of 16 to give you even one more die than the tutorsoft, so that's out.

Oh, and mages/technomancers can't learn magic/resonance skills from tutorsofts. Whee.

I'm curious how this works out.

Intuition 1-3: Cannot learn or improve any skills.

Intuition 4: Cannot learn or improve any resonance or magical skills. For other skills, you can learn rating 1 but cannot improve skills ever.

Intution 5: Can learn resonance or magical skills at rating 1, but cannot improve them ever. You can learn any rating of other skills.

Intuition 6+: Can learn any rating of any skill.

The "All skill tests made during downtime" bit does not preclude you from making the tests in front of a GM and thus avoiding the buy hits on extended tests.

The extended test buying hits is intended to allow for some rolls to be made without a GM in a known standard reproducible method.

I believe the key word in that statement is "downtime" in the sense of being without a GM, not as the bit between missions. It's standard missions scheduling to allow for a few minutes before and after each table session for bookkeeping.

I'm with Dire here, At Origins this year I made all my roles in front of the Gm after the Mission was over and then entered the time it took in my mission log calander, adn paid my monthly lifestyle cost if I needed and BAM skill improved. You guys are way over complicating things, stop buying hits and just role the dice, it takes like 30 sec. then just do you book keeping as needed

They're not complicating things on purpose. Downtime could mean 'no GM present' or 'not during the mission'; knowing which is a big deal.

This is not the way the SRM FAQ reads, nor the previous statements issued by SRM staff. "Down time" has to be the calendar time between adventures-- I can't think of any other plausible way to interprete that. Since an adventure takes days, and learning a new skill takes weeks-- this is a downtime activity.

However, this is another point of why the SRM FAQ house rules screws more players than it "protects". If your group interpretes this differently, and you get to use the RAW, then you have a major advantage over the group that plays by the SRM rules. In addition-- I and everyone I know ignore this rule for SRM, and this would give us a major advantage over suoq.

Maybe Bull will turn this crazy train around; currently I miss SRM00 days.

Note: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27139 is an interesting read on the 4:1 rule.

And I wouldn't worry about an advantage over me. This character, like my last abomination, will never see play outside my game store group because I know I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I know I'm doing it wrong. I'm just trying to figure out how to do it right.

A cracked Rating 5 Tutorsoft costs 250 nuyen and adds 5 dice to instruction tests. After 8 weeks of use it becomes a Rating 4 tutorsoft for another 8 weeks. If you're in Hot Sim VR thats another two dice so with an intuition of 2 and skill of 1 you'd have (1+2+5+2=10 dice), therefore:

10 = 2 hits
9 = 2 hits
8 = 2 hits
6 = 1 hit
6 = 1 hit
5 = 1 hit
4 = 1 hit

Total hits with 10 dice pool is 10 hits.

I'll reiterate my sentiments... let the GM decide if they want to allow players to roll and allow Edge diceleft over from the most recent mission to be spent to add dice just without the Rule of Six.

Um. A Tutorsoft gives the player a DP bonus of 1 per 2 hits on an Instruction Test (DP=Rating*2). Rating 5 gives about 2-3 bonus (2 for 4:1), not 5. The player in your example would roll 5 dice for a (4, 1 week) learning test.

Why do you think that a Tutorsoft in Hot Sim gives +2?

Not +2 to the Tutorsoft, +2 to on the test.

Yes. Why? Is it a 'Matrix test'?

I wouldn't consider it a Matrix Test.

Oddly, the rulebook mentions that Riggers jumped in get the 'same' VR +2 bonus, but goes on to say the bonus applies to all tests.




-karma

Well, all 'jumped-in' tests, which are automatically relevant vehicle-controlling actions. It's not like a jumped-in Rigger get's a bonus to his Knowledge skills or something.

Under the description of Hot Sim it says all Matrix Tests, not all Matrix Actions. Matrix Actions are listed such as Hack on the Fly, Matrix Tests are not. Perhaps I've seen The Matrix too many times and consider it normal in full virtual reality to be taught something.

<Style="not to be taken seriously">Now you know Matrix Kung Fu. When you return to the real world, you will discover that it is real air you're breathing and all that stuff you learned in a computer simulation, like jumping between buildings using your mind, does jack all in real life.</style>

Here's how that table would break down, IF (and I don't believe so) hot VR gives a +2 dice bonus to the tutorsoft. TN is 4.

The tutorsoft's pool, tutorsoft hits (every two is a bonus die), base pool, hits
12, 3/2 + 3 = 1
11, 2/2 + 2 = 0
10, 2 + 1 = 0

You can't learn skill level 2. That's rough. Now, let's do someone with a Int = 5, Skill 3, using a Turtor soft 5 (no hot VR) trying to get that skill to 4 (TN 8 ). Kidding, you guys don't need a breakdown for that.

In my question, I *said* Matrix test, not Matrix action. AFAIK, the only reason you'd even considered that classification is because a Tutorsoft runs on a computer.

Eh.

I'm pretty sure Bull or Chuck told me my very first missions outing that your allowed to approve a skill one rank between missions no problem. That seemed entirely reasonable to me so it's what i've always gone with. Frankly if it's not the rule I'm going to press to the best of my ability that it should be when we go into Season 4. Karma is already the limiter on character advancement as there is only a finite amount of it. I don't see a reason to make players jump through further hoops and book keeping especially combined with the buying hits mechanic and the dice droping extended tests mechanic.

It's up to you guys. If I sign the mission debriefing log and it shows a karma expenditure for improving skills, that should be good enough. If you want me to also sign a mission calendar for rolls and karma expenditure that don't occur at a table, then I would say no. The less you give me to sign and review on a briefing log the better. More time to run a mission.

There's two pieces of paperwork from each mission. The Mission Log and the Missions Calendar. The mission log is at the table, you need it, the player, and the gm all together, that's where it gets signed. You can't do karma expenditure and get the Mission Log signed with the GM being present. The only thing the Mission Calendar does is help you track how long something takes, so you can subtract the appropriate amount of lifestyle between missions. Which also goes on the mission log.

As a GM I am allowed to use my judgement, which would be to allow people to roll dice, if they really want, or accept the nice offer of a beer from the players and sign the sheet. Bull can fire me if he doesn't like it.

If you want to willfully interpret a rule in a way that prevents you from advancing your character, that's fine by me.

Actually, what I'd like to do is stop cheating. Because, to the best of my knowledge, that's what I'm doing.

The problem with this is, I have to find out how the heck it's supposed to be done or at least figure out what rules everyone else is using.

To that end the tools I have are the books, the Missions rules, and this forum.

I can easily ignore the extended test rules for skills, just like I'm completely ignoring the vehicle and weapons modifications rules because I didn't take a mountain of logic and Armorer on this character and see no sane way to deal with the issue. Personally, I wouldn't mind ignoring the purchasing rule, but since I built this character for the sole purpose of dealing with that rule, I'm trying to at least do that right.

I know I need a new character for the next season. I just want to make sure that if Charisma, Logic, Intuition, Armorer, and Negotiation are, in fact, mandatory for Missions advancement, that that new character has them. If there's anything else the character is supposed to have, I'd like to make sure the character has that too before I start running him. In short, I'd like to make a character that can participate and advance in Missions by the same rules everyone else is using.

By "willfully interpret", you mean use the rules as written. I agree though and say ignore the rules that don't make sense, which is why I have. However, your first part does go against what was told to us (you were on this thread) by the previous head of SRM. I'd like to point that out to the GM's that don't want to cheat to have a good time, that GM's allowing an extended downtime test at the table is prohibited.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=821208

Let's bear in mind that we all *know* the correct solution is to just allow reasonable things. This thread, like the Broken Rules thread, is about the fact that the actual rules are in conflict with the common-sense solution. There's nothing wrong with discussing that regrettable state of affairs. No one is 'willfully' crippling themselves.

I think you guys are really overcomplicating things. For that last 3 years at both Origins/Gencon, I have never had to role to increase a skill, i just paid the karma cost and the GM signed the my character log. Yes it may be ignoring a RAW, but i would think after 3 years and 24 different Con events with my character someone would have told me to make a roll for omproving a skill, and no one has. So, Idon't think it's cheating, i think no one really cares, that you improve a skill by one inbetween a Mission, Big Whoop, And until you brought it up Souq, I think noone else really cared, the rule really doesnt hurt anything to be ignored. Your onlu getting so much Karma for a mission, so realistically you can only raise one or two skills inbetween missions, Oh Gawd No, I honestly think your making a Mountain out of a mole hill, just relax and have fun. Until, Bull or another official Catalyst Big Whig tells us different don't worry about it. Honestly, i think your ok, by just raising 1 skill by 1 inbetween a run, or adding a new skill, again, no Gm or Event coordinator in 3 years has ever tiold me no, you can not do that, it just doesnt seem to be that big of a deal.

Like I just said, we all *know* that you can ignore the rules. Obviously, that's not the ideal situation. It would be better if the actual rules worked properly, especially in a system like Missions.

I agree that a mountain is being made out of a mole hill, but that was never my intention. My intention was to try and figure out what I should be doing.
Post 1: "Can someone walk me though this?"
Post 2: "I'd like to think I'm misunderstanding spending karma on skills as well."
Post 3: "Should I just be ignoring all of this stuff?"

If the answer to post 3 was "Yes, Yes you should be ignoring all this stuff.", then good.

However, I can see that what I'm doing to mod my gear (ignoring the rules completely) is very different from what KarmaInferno is doing to mod gear ("cheese-weasel my rigger character by buying Profession autosofts for her arm-equipped drones, just so I can make it a teamwork instead of solo test for the extra dice, to do even basic modifications to her vehicles"). So I know right then and there, I'm cheating and someone else is trying not to. I want to play this game without cheating, not for any moral reason, I just like to try and play by the rules first before I start to ignore/change them.

We then get into the extended test discussion, a discussion that the previous coordinator already weighed in on in another thread, which raises the options to:
1) Follow the rules and the previous coordinator's wishes.
2) Roll at the table, ignoring the previous coordinator's wishes.
3) Ignore the book, missions, and the previous coordinator's wishes, and do things the simple way.

As a result, I really don't think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm just walking into this mountain that everyone else has been dealing with in their own way for the past coulple years and silly me, I'm a little confused because there wasn't any mountain on my map and any legal way past it that I could find. There are at least three different paths people are currently taking and have been taking.

Honestly, if it was up to me I'd gut the rules and write a guideline like this:


The above guideline rewards those who do have negotiation, armorer, etc. without keeping items beyond a character's reach unless they're a module reward. However, I don't know if that's a current goal of Missions. It certainly wasn't the goal the previous coordinator had in mind according to what I saw in that thread. And having never playtested it, I have no clue if it's balanced or not. But having stumbled upon this "mountain", that's where I personally would start if I wanted to make a new path.

* http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27902 <- dice pools pre-calculated.

The ruling on this is a bit unclear, but I believe the intent was to provide a fair way to handle dice rolls when there was no GM available, or when the GM didn't have enough time due to constraints of the game. But, if there was a GM available you could roll and have him sign off on your Debriefing Log. That's how most of us handle it at the cons, anyway.

I'll clear this up and make this a solid rule for Season 4. I'm also going to look at making an exception for raising skills, because as noted, certain character types can get completely hosed trying to raise skills.

*adds one more thing to his notes for the FAQ*

Bull

Thanks, Bull!

When it comes to this part of your post the correct answer is to listen to Bull. He is the current coordinator and has realized there are problems in the rules. He is working on fixing them. I have been playing missions for 4 years now and have never had a GM tell me I could not increase my skill at the table. And I have played at MegaCon, GenCon and DragonCon. I have played with many types of GMs from across the board. And even the one GM that looked through my certs had no problem with signing the end log with me increasing skills. From what I have experienced and am seeing it looks like the consensus is that is a dumb rule we will not use it. As for the modification rules, well I don't use them. I don't mod things. That is for the gun bunnies to do.