Spells vs tanks, I think we missed a step?? Options

[Kronk2]

Ok so my party mage is casting powerball on a tank, tank gets object resistance 6, and thats its only defense?

Mage over casts a force 9 powerball gets something like 9 successes and the tank just crumples with no defence to roll.
So a 72 ton tank get crushed by a 72 kilo elf?

[Fatum]

Welcome to Shadowrun!

[Irion]

Well, the Tank should have some boxes to fill, but yes.

I consider the whole system of "object resistance" quite fucked up anyway.

[James McMurray]

If you're fielding an umpteen-thousand nuyen vehicle the price of a mana barrier to wrap it in is a pittance.

[Muspellsheimr]

So, a powerful magician with an extreme level of skill (or luck) is capable of knocking a tank down to 1/4 it's damage track (if that), and must resist 7 Physical damage in Drain for his trouble, and you are upset about it being "to powerful"?

Now, build an equally skilled (or lucky) heavy weapons specialist or sniper; give them a decent weapon with AV rounds, and see what happens. The tank probably takes a lot more damage, and the guys spend ~50 Nuyen in ammo instead of suffering an aneurysm. Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons; it is far easier to deal damage than it is to take it.


Don't get me wrong - Direct Combat spells are definitely to powerful as written; it's just that the amount by which they are overpowered is often negligible. The biggest problem is that they use a different resolution system than the rest of the game by not allowing a Resistance test after the "dodge". What I personally use for Direct Combat spells and would suggest, is allowing a "dodge" of Intuition + Counterspelling, followed by a Resistance of Body (Physical) or Willpower (Mana) + Astral Armor. I also reduced Object Resistance by 1 step on a 0-1-3-6 scale, so while objects do get a damage resistance, it's easier to affect them & up damage through Net Hits.


Finally, Object Resistance for vehicles / drones (Rules as Written) is 5, not 6. Update your PDF copy of the Anniversary printing, or get a hardcover version.

[Nath]

Finally, Object Resistance for vehicles / drones (Rules as Written) is 5, not 6. Update your PDF copy of the Anniversary printing, or get a hardcover version.

Also, if you can deal with half the Dumpshock Forums calling you an heretic, War! introduces the Redundant Process Manufacturing vehicle upgrade (basically, making the vehicle manufacturing more toxic than necessary) to increases the Object Resistance by 1 or 2. Beating an Object Resistance above 7 requires an average number of dices above 20.

Also, any visibility modifier, from a smokescreen or an holographic camo, is a negative modifier to the mage if he casts the spell using normal vision. If should get no modifier if using astral perception (unless the tank is also surrounded by FAB) but you can still give him the -2 penalty for hiding from the tank crew and dodging the shots that will follow.

I never realized that RAW implicitly suggest a mage can only provide Counterspelling dice to living persons, not to objects.

[Bodak]

I never realized that RAW implicitly suggest a mage can only provide Counterspelling dice to living persons, not to objects.

See this thread on counterspelling living creatures / inanimate objects.

[hobgoblin]

The one unclear thing about object resistance, or any situation where one is mixing a threshold with staging based on hits is the issue of the hits needed to pass the threshold. Do they just vanish, and one start to count from that point onwards? Or do one count them into the staging (resulting in a all or nothing effect)?

Btw, i guess SR4A has a typo. It says that combat spells are resisted by armor*2 if the object has any. I suspect the word "indirect" should be added before "combat".

[Irion]

@Nath
As a matter of facts, I have never found any paragraph stating, that visibility modifiers apply to the use of magic. Could somebody help me out with that?

[Sephiroth]

@Nath
As a matter of facts, I have never found any paragraph stating, that visibility modifiers apply to the use of magic. Could somebody help me out with that?

SR4A 177, under SPELLCASTING in the Sorcery section.

[pbangarth]

@Nath
As a matter of facts, I have never found any paragraph stating, that visibility modifiers apply to the use of magic. Could somebody help me out with that?

STEP 4: MAKE SPELLCASTING TEST
Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. The Spellcaster rolls
Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits,
and/or Visibility modifiers.

[pbangarth]

What teamwork, Sephiroth. Each of us runs and gets a different reference!

[Sephiroth]

What teamwork, Sephiroth. Each of us runs and gets a different reference!

Because we can coordinate with each other without even knowing we're coordinating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neurosis]

Wait a second...why doesn't the tank get to roll Body to soak?

Did I miss something?

[CanRay]

First Rule of Combat: Geek the Mage First.

There's a reason for that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wait a second...why doesn't the tank get to roll Body to soak?

Did I miss something?

Objects do not get a Soak against Direct Damage Spells... just Object Resistance... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
They get to Soak against Indirect Damage Elemental Spells (which is where their Body and Armor comes in)...

[Neurosis]

Interesting. Well, I think that actually makes all but the sturdiest vehicles (BOD ~18-24+) better off than if they were just rolling Body to resist/soak damage. Based on the 3:1 ratio, I mean. Assuming 4-6 successes is reasonably generous.

Note that still by my count the tank might not, in fact, crumple. Also, using the (optional?) rules for increasing direct combat spell drain by net hits, the mage is soaking something in the vicinity of 7P drain. Let's look for instance at the Aztechnology (something unpronounceable) from War!. It has BODY 36. Unless I am again in error, this means that it has 26 Condition Monitor Boxes (8 + 18). This means that even TWO Force 9 Powerbolts (with nine successes) won't pop it.

[Kronk2]

. Unless I am again in error, this means that it has 26 Condition Monitor Boxes (8 + 18). This means that even TWO Force 9 Powerbolts (with nine successes) won't pop it.

It was my understanding that all vehicles had 10 boxes done and done.

[Nath]

It was my understanding that all vehicles had 10 boxes done and done.

Psychological remnants from older editions. 8+1/2 something is now the standard number of boxes for everything and every condition monitor (and it means a lot for tanks). Fourth edition just wasn't very clear about vehicles, but Anniversary edition is.

Shadowrun 4th Edition, page 158
Condition Monitor
Vehicles have a Condition Monitor to track damage and operability, just like characters. Vehicles do not suffer from Stun damage, however, so they simply have one Physical Condition Monitor. Higher Body vehicles have more damage “boxes,” same as with characters. A Body 3 motorcycle or combat drone, for example, has 10 boxes on its Condition Monitor.

Shadowrun 20th Anniversary, page 167
CONDITION MONITOR
Vehicles have a Condition Monitor to track damage and operability, just like characters. Vehicles do not suffer from Stun damage, however, so they simply have one Physical Condition Monitor. Higher Body vehicles have more damage “boxes,” same as with characters. A vehicle’s Condition Monitor has a number of boxes equal to 8 plus half the vehicle’s Body attribute (round up). A Body 3 vehicle, for example, has 10 boxes on its Condition Monitor.

[Sephiroth]

It was my understanding that all vehicles had 10 boxes done and done.

Goodness gracious, no. Body on vehicles works much the same as Body on characters. So there's no way a mage can total a tank with just one powerbolt unless he casts at like F20 or something.

Condition Monitor
Vehicles have a Condition Monitor to track damage and operability,
just like characters. Vehicles do not suffer from Stun damage, however,
so they simply have one Physical Condition Monitor. Higher Body
vehicles have more damage “boxes,” same as with characters. A vehicle’s
Condition Monitor has a number of boxes equal to 8 plus half the vehicle’s
Body attribute (round up). A Body 3 vehicle, for example, has
10 boxes on its Condition Monitor.

[Kim]

A vehicle’s Condition Monitor has a number of boxes equal to 8 plus half the vehicle’s Body attribute (round up). A Body 3 vehicle, for example, has 10 boxes on its Condition Monitor.

[Ascalaphus]

Was there a "fix" in there to keep micrdrones from having at least 8 boxes?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Was there a "fix" in there to keep micrdrones from having at least 8 boxes?

Nope... Microdrones have 8 Boxes, just like weapons do (for the "Wreck Guns" Spell)...

[Kronk2]

Thanks gang that reaaallly makes me feel a bit more secure sending those multi million dollar tanks out against my team.

Third question: At most the Pulse spell should jam the comms on a tank right?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thanks gang that reaaallly makes me feel a bit more secure sending those multi million dollar tanks out against my team.

Third question: At most the Pulse spell should jam the comms on a tank right?

At most... But it is likely that the Mage will not be able to move the effect as fast as the tank moves, so, it is really not all that useful for Jamming Vehicles in my opinion