Another try to balance direct combat spells, With a new skill that determines how trained you are at resisting them Options

[Garvel]

Many people have complained that direct combat spells are too strong. There is a new optional rule that tries to increase the drain, but is isn't very good for various reasons.
I think the problem lies not in the draincode but in the fact that the target has nearly no chance to resist. The mage rolls the sum of two values (his magic attribute + his spellcasting skill) and the victim may only roll one value against it (his willpower). The magic attribute and spellcasting skill are very usefull stats to the mage, and he will try to max them, but willpower on the other hand isn't that usefull to most people, so it will be low in most cases. Even if you increase your willpower to resist magic better, you still dont have a real chance, and its really expensive since SR4A. Theoretically the victim may use counterspelling, but fact is, that the most victims wont have that.
Imho the main problem isn't that the mage has a good spell that can swiftly waste a number of no-name punks. A grenade can do that too. The problem is that even elite opponents don't have a real chance (without counterspelling).

So here is my idea: There should be a skill for mundane people, that determines how trained you are at resisting magic that trys to invade and destroy/take over your mind. I would call this skill: the "Mental Fortress Skill". It should be rolled in addition to your willpower, when resisting certain kinds of magic, that invade the mind.

Mental Fortress Skill:
This skill represents how trained the character is at resisting magic attacks that try to invade his mind. The character may add the rating in dice to resistance tests against: All Direct Combat Spells, all Mental Manipulation Spells, Perception Spells that directly read the victims thoughts (only Mind Probe and Thought Recognition), all critter and adept powers that control or alterate the mind (including involuntary Possession and Inhabitation).

Specializations: Direct Combat Spells, Mental Manipulation Spells, Perception Spells, one single critter or adept power

Of course this skill wont be for anyone. Streetpunks and norms won't have it. Security guards that are well trained may have one rating. But guys, that are badass, like swat teams or prime runners will have it. Also wealthy paranoid businessmen may have paid some one to condition them against mind manipulating magic (like in Inception).

How you train for this skill may be different, depending on your view of magic. For example: Mental conditioning, meditation, neurochemical treatment, or simply being hit by fare to many spells in your life. If your lifestyle has the Haunted quality you might develop it after some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Like said above, this skill is availible for mundanes and awakened. It's compartible with counterspelling and not availible as skillsosft.

What do you think of this idea?
(I'm also deliberating if manabased illusions and negative healing spells that affect mental stats should be affected)

[Summerstorm]

Well, a few month ago i wrote up some qualities and cyberware for helping out against magic a bit... hm... here is my old stuff:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32306

And while i like the overall idea (i seriously love magic in shadowrun, but the power difference is "totally whack yo"), i don't think such a skill should be available in this form. I would certainly go the "quality route" OR maybe have even a metagenic infusion / genetek bestowing one of the astral defence metagenic capabilities. (But this is horrible of course and goes against canon, that genetics are not reliable when it comes to magical abilities)

OR one could learn a personal counterspelling skill, which does not stack with provided one. (So making counterspelling a mundane skill... weird). And if we are there... making banishing one as well for "Attacks of Will" might be an idea too.

But yeah, i agree that the magic rules are a bit messy somehow... and if i could i would use massivly modified rules leaning to previous editions. (But my group wants to use 4th and doesn't like houseruling so much).

EDIT: Ah and don't forget critter powers... those are even worse. (while okayish in low level critters against extremely high-powered individuals they are insanely unfair when coming from high-magic critters) For example a Nosferatu or a high-rated spirit can, without fail compulse ANYONE, even a mage hiding behind 10 dice of counterspelling... because it doesn't work against it.

[Manunancy]

A midway route could be to dust off the countless amulets, gestures and other minor rituals that just about vey culture uses or has used to ward off evil, curses and the like.

Not something as good as a full-blown counterspelling but maybe dumping one of mage's sorcey dices for every succes, in a reverse fashion of supporting skills. It shouldn"t save your bacon from the heavy hitters by itself but could keep away the minor crap.

[Glyph]

The trouble with such a skill is that it makes the defense about even with the offense, when spells need net successes to work at all. Too much. My suggestion would be to allow mundane use of counterspelling (one of the older edition magic books, I forget which one, actually had mundane use of some magical skills). BUT... make it cost an action, the same as full defense. And that's about right. It's the equivalent of getting Reaction plus Dodge, instead of just Reaction.

Also, (and I have pimped this solution a lot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) ) raise the Drain for overcasting. Figure Drain up to Magic rating normally, but increase it by one for every point of Force over it (instead of adding it to the Force/2 calculation). My personal opinion is that overcasting should be dangerous and something only done in desperate situations - but a lot of builds can overcast as standard procedure.

[Garvel]

Thanks for the answers. Making it a skill might indeed be too powerfull, since it's too cheap. Making it a quality for 5 points per rating should be better.
Also a new quality can be integrated into the game much easier than a new skill.

Mental Fortress Quality: 5 BP per rating
This quality represents how trained the character is at resisting magic attacks that try to invade his mind. The character may add the rating in bonus dice to resistance tests against: Direct Combat Spells, Mental Manipulation Spells, Mana Illusions Spells, negative Healing Spells that affect mental attributes, Perception Spells that directly read the victims thoughts (only Mind Probe and Thought Recognition) and all critter and adept powers that control or alterate the mind (including involuntary Possession and Inhabitation).
Maximum rating 5

(I added Mana Illusions Spells and negative Healing Spells that affect mental attributes. From a ballancing view I didnt want that, because this spells aren't too strong anyway, but from a fluff view it feels right. It affects the mind affter all.)
This has become very similar to the Magic Resistance Quality. But thats ok, because it doesn't share the main weakness of the Magic Resistance Quality: Preventing you from being healed magically. Seriously I wouldn't even take Magic Resistance if it was a negative quality and gave points instead of costing points. In a run with a lot of fights, where you are healed by your team mage after every fight, magical healing is gonna remove a lot of damage over the run. If you can't be healed magically, you will collect a lot of damage boxes over such a run, and thats a big life-threatening disadvantage.
However, without this disadvantage, I might have bought it for some characters.

Inventing Implants and gentech to have higher magic resitance is a nice idea too. And it would be better for mundanes because the essence loss isn't that bad for them.

The problem with amulets is that all magical artifacts is shadowrun have to be bound foci. But It could be possible if they count as magical compounds, that have only one use.

Allowing Counterspelling for mundanes would work to, but its a bigger rule change than just adding a new quality, and I'd like to keep the changes to the game minor, if possible.

Penalizing overcasting more might be another solution. The force rating is halved for the calculation of the drain code. I would suggest to simply not halve it, when the mage is overcasting. (For Summoning overcasting is even more broken. Penalizing overcasting extra would also keep most mages here from summoning level 9 spirits.)
But on the other hand, its ok if the mage has a spell that can kill instantly. A full auto salve kills instantly too, and has no drain at all. I just should't be the case that no elite opponet has a chance to survive it. Thats a bigger problem than the low drain value.

[Kyoto Kid]

...This is why I preferred the old system of attribute being the TN. It made having a decent Willpower worth something for the higher the TN the more difficult it was for a mage to score multiple successes to stage up the effect. True, the mage could add sorcery pool to the test but he also had to keep in mind resisting drain as well and having to allocate it (like combat pool) over the total number of initiative passes he had during the combat turn.

In the current edition, A spellslinger simply gets a dice pool of attribute + skill (+ foci benefits if applicable) on every action pass in the turn (c'mon tell me that most who play mages don't have at least an Increase Reflexes 1 spell on a sustaining focus). Meanwhile the poor mundane only gets his WP in dice. Effectively a casting mage with AM and Sorcery of 5 each who specialises in casting Combat Spells (+2 dice) can have 12 dice vs 3, maybe 4 for the mundane. True he can only apply up to his skill in hits but guess who still wins.

In another thread I illustrated the situation with an excerpt from a game session I was in. My character (an adept even) had a 3 WP. She was hit by a force 5 manabolt cast by a troll mage and who scored 5 hits increasing the DF to 10P, My character rolled zip taking 10 boxes Physical (becoming 9 after burning a point of Edge for one hit to stay conscious).

I agree with others that maybe some kind of a quality rather than skill would be more appropriate. Call it Magic Defence, or something like that.

[CanRay]

You want balance for Magic?

GEEK THE MAGE FIRST!

It's like being a machine gunner IRL. Great, you have a weapon that's powerful and wonderful. You're also target number one.

[Irion]

Well it should be considered, that the mage does not always have all his dice pool in the hand.
Like I learned here he has to counter visibility (there are also astral visibility modifiers!).
Then you got backgroundcount. Since most shadowruns do not take place in a nice neighbourhood or in a calm forst you have to consider at least one point of BC.
A "good" mage would bring Magic 5 and Spellcasting 5(or 6). May be a bonus of a spec. or mentor spirit.
So he would go with around 10-13 dices. Lets take 12.
Lets dimm the lights a bit a a he is loosing two dices. Lets get a BC of one and an other dice is gone.
Lets have a Mist on top of that, to make everything a bit scary and the mage is down to 7 dices. To account for one net hit we take away three. So everyone with a willpower of 4 would have a 50% chance of resisting. Not that good, I suppose.

Of course if you play without visibility or Backgroundcount, than your mages will rock. Thats like never checking your Runners for guns and ignoring problems with enclosed space as the use of ammunition. Yes, now there is no reason not to take the assaultcannon everywhere you go...

[TheOOB]

I never got the hate for direct damage spells. Damage wise they are statically inferior to guns, and there is always a chance of taking drain...which is bad.

A magic resistance quality would not be bad(but it would be worth more then 5 points), but there are plenty of ways to deal with mages. The best way to deal with magic is to use magic, plain an simple. Wards, spirits, counterspelling, mana static, they all screw with magical ability. Any good security set up is going to have some magical defenses, even if its just a ward and a force 3 spirit with magical guard, and any strike teams or groups that are going to attack the players(who have a mage on their team), would never do so without magical backup of their own.

Even without magic, there are plenty of defenses. Anything that blocks LoS works(smoke is a favorite), background counts, even FAB weapons. There is no shortage of ways to deal with mages.

[CanRay]

There is no shortage of ways to deal with mages.

Bullets. Lots of bullets. From multiple directions. All aimed at them.

[Garvel]

I never got the hate for direct damage spells.

Well, one reason is probably that they are a lot stronger than indirect damage spells. Is really hard if you compare them. (Although the reason for that is probably that indirect damage spells are to weak.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, here is something that I did not see mentioned at all...

Just use the Positive Quality (for Non-Magically Aware) called Magic Resistance (Anyone that is not magically aware can have up to 4 levels of such a Quality, which provides up to an additional 4 Dice of Resistance). I know it is a stretch, but it was put there for just such a purpose. See Page 91 of SR4A for the relevant text. (It was also in SR4 as well)...

Adepts get an equivalent Adept Power...
Mystic Adepts/Magicians get COunterspelling...

So, everyone has a way to augment their abilities to resist magic pretty darn easily... Not sure why everyone seems to miss that though...

Also, have a Team Mage provide counterspelling...

Between these two strategies, you should be pretty well covered, unless your opposition is continually throwing High Force Spells at you constantly...

Also a new quality can be integrated into the game much easier than a new skill.

QUOTE
Mental Fortress Quality: 5 BP per rating
This quality represents how trained the character is at resisting magic attacks that try to invade his mind. The character may add the rating in bonus dice to resistance tests against: Direct Combat Spells, Mental Manipulation Spells, Mana Illusions Spells, negative Healing Spells that affect mental attributes, Perception Spells that directly read the victims thoughts (only Mind Probe and Thought Recognition) and all critter and adept powers that control or alterate the mind (including involuntary Possession and Inhabitation).
Maximum rating 5

As for this, don't bother, it already exists. See above.

I agree with others that maybe some kind of a quality rather than skill would be more appropriate. Call it Magic Defence, or something like that.

Does noone actually read the books? There is ALREADY A Quality for this... It is even in the MAIN BOOK, under Positive Qualities.

A magic resistance quality would not be bad(but it would be worth more then 5 points), but there are plenty of ways to deal with mages.

I can only just shake My head in disbelief here. Really? Is there anyone else out there that knows about the Magic Resistance Quality other than me?

[Garvel]

I quote myself:

This has become very similar to the Magic Resistance Quality. But thats ok, because it doesn't share the main weakness of the Magic Resistance Quality: Preventing you from being healed magically. Seriously I wouldn't even take Magic Resistance if it was a negative quality and gave points instead of costing points. In a run with a lot of fights, where you are healed by your team mage after every fight, magical healing is gonna remove a lot of damage over the run. If you can't be healed magically, you will collect a lot of damage boxes over such a run, and thats a big life-threatening disadvantage.
However, without this disadvantage, I might have bought it for some characters.

I usually skip reading that long posts too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I quote myself:

I usually skip reading that long posts too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Apparently I missed it... But still, I think that you seriously overrate the value of Magical Healing. My main character (Yes I know, this is Anecdotal, but still a bit relevant) of over 300 Karma has only ever received magical healing a grand total of ONE time over a two year campaign. JUST ONCE (it has been my experience that First Aid is so much better than Magical Healing, in almost every respect, especially with a competent medic. I tend to disagree with this, but that is another topic entirely). And even then, with Magic Resistance, you roll the Quality Dice, and that is it, as Heal is not normaly resisted, So a whopping -1 Box of healing on average for the Full levels of Magic Resistance. I mean really, characters heal so damn quickly in Shadowrun it is absolutely, positively scary. Might as well call it regeneration and be done with it.

RL Example: Back Surgery (Spinal Vertebrae Fused at L4-L5, 2 Rods and 8 Screws). It was two months before I could do anything resembling anything normal, and one years worth of rehabilitation to recover, and I still have pain. In Shadow run, lets call that 7 Boxes of Damage, equal to a Rating 1 Wired Reflexes (2 Essence) being installed). In Shadowrun, I would be back on my feat in a day, 2 max (Using a lesser example is even more ludicrous, if you catch my meaning). Really? Medtech must be wonderful. Heal spells are truly secondary in my opinion.

Not seeing an issue here, especially as Magic Resistance gives additional dice to resist incomming spells, where 1 Net hit may make all the difference in the world.

[Slide7X]

You want balance for Magic?

GEEK THE MAGE FIRST!

It's like being a machine gunner IRL. Great, you have a weapon that's powerful and wonderful. You're also target number one.

That's a bag of worms right there. It works just fine when the PCs are geeking the NPC mage first.

But, most mage player's I have ever played with get all pissy when NPCs do it to them all the time.
Whining about how unfair it is.
My "You chose to be a mage" line doesn't go over well most of the time.

I've even had the enemy use (read: SPAM) thermal smoke to block LOS on a naturally thermographic (i.e. he can not turn it off) mage.
Rather then target the PC as priority.
The player complained he didn't get to do anything after the session, and hasn't played since.

The problem with the Direct Combat Spells IMO is they use a completely different resolution system then every thing else.

Plus, if your mundane, there is almost no way to improve you defense vs. them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Plus, if your mundane, there is almost no way to improve you defense vs. them.

Ummm......... Increase your relevant Stat, Pick up Magic Resistance Quality (or Counterspelling if a Mage, Spell Resistance of Adept), Have a Mage Buddy with Counterspelling, not actually being seen by the opposition. Plenty of ways to resist magic, if you are willing to pay. Why a mage would complain about being target number one is beyond me.

@Canray...
As for being the Machine Gunner, You should try being the RadioMan. The only infantry billet with a shorter life expectancy than the Machine Gunner. Really Sucks, let me tell you...

[Slide7X]

The point I was trying to make is

magic can counter technologies and other mundane things
but technology can't counter magic in almost any way.

Background Count is BS. If a game system has to pull a "hostile environment" card to counter something that something is too powerful.

Increase your stat to what 6 to 8 vs casting dice pools without an upper limit.

Have a mage buddy with counterspelling.. yet more "only magic can counter magic crap"

Mage is the SR4 equivalent of the DnD cleric, you can play without one but chances are you in for short trip.

If a mage wants to increase his damage resistance to bullets her puts on some armor.
If a mundane wants to increase his damage resistance vs. direct combat spells he ...?

[CanRay]

@Canray...
As for being the Machine Gunner, You should try being the RadioMan. The only infantry billet with a shorter life expectancy than the Machine Gunner. Really Sucks, let me tell you...

I'd have to try and be infantry first. Civvie puke here. Unable to pass the physical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[TheOOB]

Well, one reason is probably that they are a lot stronger than indirect damage spells. Is really hard if you compare them. (Although the reason for that is probably that indirect damage spells are to weak.)

That is the wrong thing to compare them to. Indirect spells are not bad, but they direct combat spells are usually better. Guns are even better then direct spells though.

[Mardrax]

That is the wrong thing to compare them to. Indirect spells are not bad, but they direct combat spells are usually better. Guns are even better then direct spells though.

Exactly.
Guns are resisted with Reaction, then Bod+Armor.
Spells are resisted with Willpower(+Counterspelling). There's one step less, but it's more likely to include a second factor.
Spells can't use BF. They can overcast, sure. But that increases possibility of hurt for the caster.
Spells can't use SA. They can multicast, sure. But see the previous note.

If you're that afraid of being Manabolted, give yourself a FAB bath, or get yourself a CZ to piggyback on.

[TheOOB]

Exactly.
Guns are resisted with Reaction, then Bod+Armor.
Spells are resisted with Willpower(+Counterspelling). There's one step less, but it's more likely to include a second factor.
Spells can't use BF. They can overcast, sure. But that increases possibility of hurt for the caster.
Spells can't use SA. They can multicast, sure. But see the previous note.

If you're that afraid of being Manabolted, give yourself a FAB bath, or get yourself a CZ to piggyback on.

You forgot the big one, spells take a complex action to cast, guns take a simple action to shoot. Even though direct combat spells do more damage per hit....guns get more hits. Also, guns are way easier to get good with(no qualities needed, common skill, common attribute that is easier buff with 'ware, easier specialization, smartlink, ect), and can use different ammo types(stick and shock is so broken op that I ban it from my games), and barring a critical glitch, never risks harming the attacker. People can say all they want about statistics and average dice rolls, but when your job is casting spells, you are going to hit that 5-10% chance of getting drain, and it will come at the wrong time. Wound penalties suck.

[MK Ultra]

I think the Magic Resistance Quality is sufficient, and it´s good that it has a drawback to balance it, that also fits very much fluffwise.

I might considder the Active Counterspelling, but I think I will just alow counterspelling as a magic quality, similar to spell or spirit knack.

You might as well give targets the chance to jump for cover, when they notice a mage targeting them. Using the full defense option, to block the LOS, with mods according to the availability of cover (no cover near by, no chance). Hits reduce the mages dicepool. Of course the harder part will be noticing that the mage wants to target you, I guess you´ll have to know who´s the mage and hold back an action for that, and there may occure some (hillarious) false positives.

[TheOOB]

You might as well give targets the chance to jump for cover, when they notice a mage targeting them. Using the full defense option, to block the LOS, with mods according to the availability of cover (no cover near by, no chance). Hits reduce the mages dicepool. Of course the harder part will be noticing that the mage wants to target you, I guess you´ll have to know who´s the mage and hold back an action for that, and there may occure some (hillarious) false positives.

That is already an option in RAW, just as it is with guns. Save for clear barricades, most things that penalize guns also penalize spells. The system has ample magical defenses built in.

[Mardrax]

You forgot the big one, spells take a complex action to cast, guns take a simple action to shoot.

Only for SS, SA or BF. Think I pretty much covered that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Also yes, relative facility to be a crack shot more than balances with the relative difficulty to get Willpower up.

[Irion]

Sorry, but to compare spells with guns is like comparing apples to yellow rubber ducks.

Well, you can hurt somebody with both. Right. And right too for apples and yellow rubber ducks.

To learn powerbolt and stunbolt cost a total of 10 Karma or 6BP.
To pistols from 0 to 4 cost 22 Karma or 16 BP.

While around 1 percent of the population (if they are active loking for it) my find out, that you are a spellcaster. Everyone has a chance to realise that you are armed.

Second of all, the spell we are talking about, is silent. Compared to guns, which are loud.
I could go on for quite a while but I think I have made my point.