Many people have complained that direct combat spells are too strong. There is a new optional rule that tries to increase the drain, but is isn't very good for various reasons.
I think the problem lies not in the draincode but in the fact that the target has nearly no chance to resist. The mage rolls the sum of two values (his magic attribute + his spellcasting skill) and the victim may only roll one value against it (his willpower). The magic attribute and spellcasting skill are very usefull stats to the mage, and he will try to max them, but willpower on the other hand isn't that usefull to most people, so it will be low in most cases. Even if you increase your willpower to resist magic better, you still dont have a real chance, and its really expensive since SR4A. Theoretically the victim may use counterspelling, but fact is, that the most victims wont have that.
Imho the main problem isn't that the mage has a good spell that can swiftly waste a number of no-name punks. A grenade can do that too. The problem is that even elite opponents don't have a real chance (without counterspelling).

So here is my idea: There should be a skill for mundane people, that determines how trained you are at resisting magic that trys to invade and destroy/take over your mind. I would call this skill: the "Mental Fortress Skill". It should be rolled in addition to your willpower, when resisting certain kinds of magic, that invade the mind.


Of course this skill wont be for anyone. Streetpunks and norms won't have it. Security guards that are well trained may have one rating. But guys, that are badass, like swat teams or prime runners will have it. Also wealthy paranoid businessmen may have paid some one to condition them against mind manipulating magic (like in Inception).

How you train for this skill may be different, depending on your view of magic. For example: Mental conditioning, meditation, neurochemical treatment, or simply being hit by fare to many spells in your life. If your lifestyle has the Haunted quality you might develop it after some time
Like said above, this skill is availible for mundanes and awakened. It's compartible with counterspelling and not availible as skillsosft.

What do you think of this idea?
(I'm also deliberating if manabased illusions and negative healing spells that affect mental stats should be affected)

Well, a few month ago i wrote up some qualities and cyberware for helping out against magic a bit... hm... here is my old stuff:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32306

And while i like the overall idea (i seriously love magic in shadowrun, but the power difference is "totally whack yo"), i don't think such a skill should be available in this form. I would certainly go the "quality route" OR maybe have even a metagenic infusion / genetek bestowing one of the astral defence metagenic capabilities. (But this is horrible of course and goes against canon, that genetics are not reliable when it comes to magical abilities)

OR one could learn a personal counterspelling skill, which does not stack with provided one. (So making counterspelling a mundane skill... weird). And if we are there... making banishing one as well for "Attacks of Will" might be an idea too.

But yeah, i agree that the magic rules are a bit messy somehow... and if i could i would use massivly modified rules leaning to previous editions. (But my group wants to use 4th and doesn't like houseruling so much).

EDIT: Ah and don't forget critter powers... those are even worse. (while okayish in low level critters against extremely high-powered individuals they are insanely unfair when coming from high-magic critters) For example a Nosferatu or a high-rated spirit can, without fail compulse ANYONE, even a mage hiding behind 10 dice of counterspelling... because it doesn't work against it.

A midway route could be to dust off the countless amulets, gestures and other minor rituals that just about vey culture uses or has used to ward off evil, curses and the like.

Not something as good as a full-blown counterspelling but maybe dumping one of mage's sorcey dices for every succes, in a reverse fashion of supporting skills. It shouldn"t save your bacon from the heavy hitters by itself but could keep away the minor crap.

The trouble with such a skill is that it makes the defense about even with the offense, when spells need net successes to work at all. Too much. My suggestion would be to allow mundane use of counterspelling (one of the older edition magic books, I forget which one, actually had mundane use of some magical skills). BUT... make it cost an action, the same as full defense. And that's about right. It's the equivalent of getting Reaction plus Dodge, instead of just Reaction.

Also, (and I have pimped this solution a lot ) raise the Drain for overcasting. Figure Drain up to Magic rating normally, but increase it by one for every point of Force over it (instead of adding it to the Force/2 calculation). My personal opinion is that overcasting should be dangerous and something only done in desperate situations - but a lot of builds can overcast as standard procedure.

Thanks for the answers. Making it a skill might indeed be too powerfull, since it's too cheap. Making it a quality for 5 points per rating should be better.
Also a new quality can be integrated into the game much easier than a new skill.


(I added Mana Illusions Spells and negative Healing Spells that affect mental attributes. From a ballancing view I didnt want that, because this spells aren't too strong anyway, but from a fluff view it feels right. It affects the mind affter all.)
This has become very similar to the Magic Resistance Quality. But thats ok, because it doesn't share the main weakness of the Magic Resistance Quality: Preventing you from being healed magically. Seriously I wouldn't even take Magic Resistance if it was a negative quality and gave points instead of costing points. In a run with a lot of fights, where you are healed by your team mage after every fight, magical healing is gonna remove a lot of damage over the run. If you can't be healed magically, you will collect a lot of damage boxes over such a run, and thats a big life-threatening disadvantage.
However, without this disadvantage, I might have bought it for some characters.

Inventing Implants and gentech to have higher magic resitance is a nice idea too. And it would be better for mundanes because the essence loss isn't that bad for them.

The problem with amulets is that all magical artifacts is shadowrun have to be bound foci. But It could be possible if they count as magical compounds, that have only one use.

Allowing Counterspelling for mundanes would work to, but its a bigger rule change than just adding a new quality, and I'd like to keep the changes to the game minor, if possible.

Penalizing overcasting more might be another solution. The force rating is halved for the calculation of the drain code. I would suggest to simply not halve it, when the mage is overcasting. (For Summoning overcasting is even more broken. Penalizing overcasting extra would also keep most mages here from summoning level 9 spirits.)
But on the other hand, its ok if the mage has a spell that can kill instantly. A full auto salve kills instantly too, and has no drain at all. I just should't be the case that no elite opponet has a chance to survive it. Thats a bigger problem than the low drain value.

...This is why I preferred the old system of attribute being the TN. It made having a decent Willpower worth something for the higher the TN the more difficult it was for a mage to score multiple successes to stage up the effect. True, the mage could add sorcery pool to the test but he also had to keep in mind resisting drain as well and having to allocate it (like combat pool) over the total number of initiative passes he had during the combat turn.

In the current edition, A spellslinger simply gets a dice pool of attribute + skill (+ foci benefits if applicable) on every action pass in the turn (c'mon tell me that most who play mages don't have at least an Increase Reflexes 1 spell on a sustaining focus). Meanwhile the poor mundane only gets his WP in dice. Effectively a casting mage with AM and Sorcery of 5 each who specialises in casting Combat Spells (+2 dice) can have 12 dice vs 3, maybe 4 for the mundane. True he can only apply up to his skill in hits but guess who still wins.

In another thread I illustrated the situation with an excerpt from a game session I was in. My character (an adept even) had a 3 WP. She was hit by a force 5 manabolt cast by a troll mage and who scored 5 hits increasing the DF to 10P, My character rolled zip taking 10 boxes Physical (becoming 9 after burning a point of Edge for one hit to stay conscious).

I agree with others that maybe some kind of a quality rather than skill would be more appropriate. Call it Magic Defence, or something like that.

You want balance for Magic?

GEEK THE MAGE FIRST!

It's like being a machine gunner IRL. Great, you have a weapon that's powerful and wonderful. You're also target number one.

Well it should be considered, that the mage does not always have all his dice pool in the hand.
Like I learned here he has to counter visibility (there are also astral visibility modifiers!).
Then you got backgroundcount. Since most shadowruns do not take place in a nice neighbourhood or in a calm forst you have to consider at least one point of BC.
A "good" mage would bring Magic 5 and Spellcasting 5(or 6). May be a bonus of a spec. or mentor spirit.
So he would go with around 10-13 dices. Lets take 12.
Lets dimm the lights a bit a a he is loosing two dices. Lets get a BC of one and an other dice is gone.
Lets have a Mist on top of that, to make everything a bit scary and the mage is down to 7 dices. To account for one net hit we take away three. So everyone with a willpower of 4 would have a 50% chance of resisting. Not that good, I suppose.

Of course if you play without visibility or Backgroundcount, than your mages will rock. Thats like never checking your Runners for guns and ignoring problems with enclosed space as the use of ammunition. Yes, now there is no reason not to take the assaultcannon everywhere you go...

I never got the hate for direct damage spells. Damage wise they are statically inferior to guns, and there is always a chance of taking drain...which is bad.

A magic resistance quality would not be bad(but it would be worth more then 5 points), but there are plenty of ways to deal with mages. The best way to deal with magic is to use magic, plain an simple. Wards, spirits, counterspelling, mana static, they all screw with magical ability. Any good security set up is going to have some magical defenses, even if its just a ward and a force 3 spirit with magical guard, and any strike teams or groups that are going to attack the players(who have a mage on their team), would never do so without magical backup of their own.

Even without magic, there are plenty of defenses. Anything that blocks LoS works(smoke is a favorite), background counts, even FAB weapons. There is no shortage of ways to deal with mages.

Bullets. Lots of bullets. From multiple directions. All aimed at them.

Well, one reason is probably that they are a lot stronger than indirect damage spells. Is really hard if you compare them. (Although the reason for that is probably that indirect damage spells are to weak.)

Well, here is something that I did not see mentioned at all...

Just use the Positive Quality (for Non-Magically Aware) called Magic Resistance (Anyone that is not magically aware can have up to 4 levels of such a Quality, which provides up to an additional 4 Dice of Resistance). I know it is a stretch, but it was put there for just such a purpose. See Page 91 of SR4A for the relevant text. (It was also in SR4 as well)...

Adepts get an equivalent Adept Power...
Mystic Adepts/Magicians get COunterspelling...

So, everyone has a way to augment their abilities to resist magic pretty darn easily... Not sure why everyone seems to miss that though...

Also, have a Team Mage provide counterspelling...

Between these two strategies, you should be pretty well covered, unless your opposition is continually throwing High Force Spells at you constantly...



As for this, don't bother, it already exists. See above.



Does noone actually read the books? There is ALREADY A Quality for this... It is even in the MAIN BOOK, under Positive Qualities.



I can only just shake My head in disbelief here. Really? Is there anyone else out there that knows about the Magic Resistance Quality other than me?

I quote myself:

I usually skip reading that long posts too

Apparently I missed it... But still, I think that you seriously overrate the value of Magical Healing. My main character (Yes I know, this is Anecdotal, but still a bit relevant) of over 300 Karma has only ever received magical healing a grand total of ONE time over a two year campaign. JUST ONCE (it has been my experience that First Aid is so much better than Magical Healing, in almost every respect, especially with a competent medic. I tend to disagree with this, but that is another topic entirely). And even then, with Magic Resistance, you roll the Quality Dice, and that is it, as Heal is not normaly resisted, So a whopping -1 Box of healing on average for the Full levels of Magic Resistance. I mean really, characters heal so damn quickly in Shadowrun it is absolutely, positively scary. Might as well call it regeneration and be done with it.

RL Example: Back Surgery (Spinal Vertebrae Fused at L4-L5, 2 Rods and 8 Screws). It was two months before I could do anything resembling anything normal, and one years worth of rehabilitation to recover, and I still have pain. In Shadow run, lets call that 7 Boxes of Damage, equal to a Rating 1 Wired Reflexes (2 Essence) being installed). In Shadowrun, I would be back on my feat in a day, 2 max (Using a lesser example is even more ludicrous, if you catch my meaning). Really? Medtech must be wonderful. Heal spells are truly secondary in my opinion.

Not seeing an issue here, especially as Magic Resistance gives additional dice to resist incomming spells, where 1 Net hit may make all the difference in the world.

That's a bag of worms right there. It works just fine when the PCs are geeking the NPC mage first.

But, most mage player's I have ever played with get all pissy when NPCs do it to them all the time.
Whining about how unfair it is.
My "You chose to be a mage" line doesn't go over well most of the time.

I've even had the enemy use (read: SPAM) thermal smoke to block LOS on a naturally thermographic (i.e. he can not turn it off) mage.
Rather then target the PC as priority.
The player complained he didn't get to do anything after the session, and hasn't played since.

The problem with the Direct Combat Spells IMO is they use a completely different resolution system then every thing else.

Plus, if your mundane, there is almost no way to improve you defense vs. them.

Ummm......... Increase your relevant Stat, Pick up Magic Resistance Quality (or Counterspelling if a Mage, Spell Resistance of Adept), Have a Mage Buddy with Counterspelling, not actually being seen by the opposition. Plenty of ways to resist magic, if you are willing to pay. Why a mage would complain about being target number one is beyond me.

@Canray...
As for being the Machine Gunner, You should try being the RadioMan. The only infantry billet with a shorter life expectancy than the Machine Gunner. Really Sucks, let me tell you...

The point I was trying to make is

magic can counter technologies and other mundane things
but technology can't counter magic in almost any way.

Background Count is BS. If a game system has to pull a "hostile environment" card to counter something that something is too powerful.

Increase your stat to what 6 to 8 vs casting dice pools without an upper limit.

Have a mage buddy with counterspelling.. yet more "only magic can counter magic crap"

Mage is the SR4 equivalent of the DnD cleric, you can play without one but chances are you in for short trip.

If a mage wants to increase his damage resistance to bullets her puts on some armor.
If a mundane wants to increase his damage resistance vs. direct combat spells he ...?

I'd have to try and be infantry first. Civvie puke here. Unable to pass the physical.

That is the wrong thing to compare them to. Indirect spells are not bad, but they direct combat spells are usually better. Guns are even better then direct spells though.

Exactly.
Guns are resisted with Reaction, then Bod+Armor.
Spells are resisted with Willpower(+Counterspelling). There's one step less, but it's more likely to include a second factor.
Spells can't use BF. They can overcast, sure. But that increases possibility of hurt for the caster.
Spells can't use SA. They can multicast, sure. But see the previous note.

If you're that afraid of being Manabolted, give yourself a FAB bath, or get yourself a CZ to piggyback on.

You forgot the big one, spells take a complex action to cast, guns take a simple action to shoot. Even though direct combat spells do more damage per hit....guns get more hits. Also, guns are way easier to get good with(no qualities needed, common skill, common attribute that is easier buff with 'ware, easier specialization, smartlink, ect), and can use different ammo types(stick and shock is so broken op that I ban it from my games), and barring a critical glitch, never risks harming the attacker. People can say all they want about statistics and average dice rolls, but when your job is casting spells, you are going to hit that 5-10% chance of getting drain, and it will come at the wrong time. Wound penalties suck.

I think the Magic Resistance Quality is sufficient, and it´s good that it has a drawback to balance it, that also fits very much fluffwise.

I might considder the Active Counterspelling, but I think I will just alow counterspelling as a magic quality, similar to spell or spirit knack.

You might as well give targets the chance to jump for cover, when they notice a mage targeting them. Using the full defense option, to block the LOS, with mods according to the availability of cover (no cover near by, no chance). Hits reduce the mages dicepool. Of course the harder part will be noticing that the mage wants to target you, I guess you´ll have to know who´s the mage and hold back an action for that, and there may occure some (hillarious) false positives.

That is already an option in RAW, just as it is with guns. Save for clear barricades, most things that penalize guns also penalize spells. The system has ample magical defenses built in.

Only for SS, SA or BF. Think I pretty much covered that

Also yes, relative facility to be a crack shot more than balances with the relative difficulty to get Willpower up.

Sorry, but to compare spells with guns is like comparing apples to yellow rubber ducks.

Well, you can hurt somebody with both. Right. And right too for apples and yellow rubber ducks.

To learn powerbolt and stunbolt cost a total of 10 Karma or 6BP.
To pistols from 0 to 4 cost 22 Karma or 16 BP.

While around 1 percent of the population (if they are active loking for it) my find out, that you are a spellcaster. Everyone has a chance to realise that you are armed.

Second of all, the spell we are talking about, is silent. Compared to guns, which are loud.
I could go on for quite a while but I think I have made my point.

Actually in my games (house rule alert) I'm allowing binding counterspelling foci to mundanes. Rules-wise it's simple - the procedure is exactly the same, performed by a magician, but uses the mundanes karma. The magician just binds a focus to another person. After binding, it works just like for magical persons - you have to activate it and then it works adding dice to resistance tests (subject to all rules, like breaking the focus, or having an astral bond with the person, etc).

In practice I guess such foci are quite rare - it is costly to find the materials, the mage, and you have to pay for the ritual. And offer karma too! It's not for your typical mook. But prime runners and powerful NPCs can afford such protection. And then it would be easier to find and pay for binding a force 1 or 2 focus, but quite difficult to get a 4 or 5 force one. And the karma cost is 3x force.

On top of that, remember that a counterspelling focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (that is, there is no 'general' counterspelling focus working against all spells) so this also takes away some power from this rule. I just tried not to make it overpowered. The most popular foci are combat and manipulation, naturally.

This is the way I run this (house rule!). It's far from ideal, I know, but it gives a bit of balance push towards improving mundane protection against magic. Maybe this helps somebody :)

Except that you missed the most important things. You must first have the Magician or Mystic Adept Quality (10-15 BP, Can't be learned once play begins) to even start considering the path of MAgic.

You must increase that Magic Atgtribute from 1 to something Functional if you want to actually use said Powerbolt or Stunbolt effectively (so anywhere from 30 bp - 65 bp for a Magic of 4-6) or insane amounts of Karma for the same. You ALSO need an adequate Skill for Casting, which will cost you the same amount of BP/Karma as the Gun Bunny learning to use a Gun.

Now, You cannot get much in the way of Stat Boosting Ware for casting (though Foci will suffice, for both Karma and Cash), while a Gunbunny only needs Cash. A Smartlink adds an immediate +2 for ANY subcategory of weapon you care to specialize for, not so much for a Spell, as you only get ONE specialty. Agility is EASILY boosted to 9, how about that Magic Rating? Not so easy. A Mage does have a potential Mentor Bonus, but you need a Quality for that, so it is Karma Intensive (10) or you need to spend a BP of 5 to acquire it.

Hmmm. So we have a Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, Spellcasting Focus 5 (Combat), Mentor Bonus 2 (Combat), and Specialization 2 (COmbat) for a Mage Dice Pool of 21 Dice... Assuming you can afford all of that at character creation (15bp for Mage, 65 for the Magic, 24 for the Skill, 5 Bonding and 5bp Equipment and 5 for Restricted Gear, 5 for the Mentor, and 2 for Specialization and Combat Spell of Chioce for 3 = Total Investment of 129 BP, and that does not even cover the Drain Stats which are likely in the 4-5 range each at a cost of 30-40BP per stat). Pretty hefty investment for a single ability to deal Damage, especially since you will risk it on yourself as well. Even more so when you factor in that you can have no more hits apply to the spellcasting test than the force you cast the spell at.

So... Gunbunny has a Agility of 9 (5 Base with +4 from Muscle Toner), Skill of 6 in Longarms, Specialty 2, Tacnet 2, Smartlink 2. That is also 21 Dice. Definitely doable at character creation. Agility 5 is 40bp, Muscle Toner is 6bp, Restricted Gear 5bp, Skill is 24 bp, Specialty 2bp, Smartlink and sensor channels for Tacnet are about 1.5 bp, tacnet just over 1bp and a Weapon of choice with ammo of choice, lets call that 2 bp. So for an investment of about 80bp, I can do as much or more damage than the mage, Quicker, and with absolutely NO DRAIN WHATSOEVER. AND NO CAP TO THE NUMBER OF HITS APPLIED.

It is infinitely easier to be deadly with a Weapon than it is to be so with Magic. Magic's big boon is that you can be extremely versatile, and it is harder to resist. A Gunbunny can START their damage at anywhere from 4p-11p and add Net hits on top, with no Drain, No Damage Cap, and 2x the actions of a Mage. So to their one Megadamage attack at Force 12 and average hits of 6 (one is removed for Resistance from the Stat of 3) you get 18 damage, and a potential heavy drain for the caster dependant upon success in drain resistance, so lets say 6 boxes reduce to 2 on average (12 Dice Drain Resistance).

The Gun Bunny, on the other hand, has a Sniper Rifle (Base 8p) with AP Rounds (total of -7). He sacrifices 4 Dice to target a more vulnerable spot, so stats are now 12p, -7 AP. Typical Target has 8-10 Armor, lets call it 10, with a 5 Body). Target has a whopping 6 Reaction for GP. Initial Round is unexpected, so 17 Dice nets 5 Net hits (17p Inflicted), Target soaks with 8 Dice (Remaining Armor + Body) for a reduction of 3 boxes (we are being generous). so a net of 14p, not quite as good as your mage, but wait, the second round is incomming, and at 21 Dice (no take aim action for called shot), there are 7 net hits, and still no dodge (the target is likely on the ground). And so we now have 15p reduced to 12p after damage resistance. So total damage is 26p for the same action your mage took (a Complex Action). I am sorry, How are Direct Combat Spells any more deadly than firearms?

If your Magic was stun oriented, your target likely survives, otherwise he is dead. The Gunbunny kills his target. But that is generally the intent when you are using sucha large weapon to take someone down. Lethal damage and all that.

I have never considered Direct Damage all that much of a threat. There are just way to many ways to negate much of the lethality, even mundanely.

As for your comment on the silence of Spells vs. Guns. I beg to differ. At force 12, EVERYONE knows that you just cast a spell, with no actual roll involved, as the Mana piours intot he area around you as you shape it. For my Sniper Example above, you have anywhere from a -7 to a -10 to the perception roll (Threshold of 2) to detect it, and you are likely at an additional penalty of Distracted (so -9 to -12). Good luck hearing that at all.

Infinitely cheaper to just summon a spirit capable of Magical Guard, and have it bound to Long Term Service to provide Counterspelling for the target (which the target could allso pay for per your House Rule). Especially since the Mundane should have real difficulty in actually activating the Foci (He has no Magic Attribute, so would need a Magician to activate it for him every time), because the Foci would have the same problems as the spirit. Wards. The mundane has no capacity to trick the ward, so the focus, assuming active, would trigger every ward it passed through, assuming the ward did not deactivate the focus outright.

Versus Firearms your get a Defense Test that weakens the Attackers Attack Test, possibly negating the attack entirely.
Then you get a Damage Resistance Test vs. a Damage Value determined by any surviving hits plus the weapon used.

Versus a Direct Combat Spell you get neither a Defense Test nor a Damage Resistance Test.
All you get is an Opposed Test

Lets be specific here in the thread.

It's not Magic itself that is that overpowered. Its the Direct Combat Spells that are overpowered.
And they are overpowered because they use a resolution system completely different then any other immediate attack type.

The fact that Indirect Combat Spells follow the same resolution system as Firearms attacks, but always play second banana to the Directs is telling.
Direct Combat Spells:
ignore Range (like all ranged magic attacks)
ignore Defenses Test entirely. (the general description of Direct combat spells include nothing about getting one, but the indirect description does.)
ignore Cover (cover provides a dice pool bonus to the Defense Test, which you don't get vs. a Direct Combat Spell)
ignore Armour (This is specifically stated in the general description of Direct Combat Spells).
ignore everything on the Ranged Combat Modifier Table, except Impaired Visibility; things like movement. (All magic does this, even Indirect Combat Spells)
replace the Damage Resistance test with an Opposed Test (so that +3 to Body for Damage Resistance Tests from Titanium Bone lacing, doesn't help)

The only non-magical, mundane thing you can do to protect yourself from a Direct Combat Spell is play with Visibility and Line of Sight.
If the mage can't see you he can't hit you, with a Direct Combat Spell anyway.
You ever wounder why most mages seem to be a metatype? because most metas come with Low-Light or Thermo built-in. Thereby reducing the effect visibility has on their casting.

On a side note spamming thermal smoke grenades vs. a mage with natural thermographic vision works wonderfully well, because the mage can't turn off his thermo. Tends to piss off said mage's player to no end and the "they could have shot you instead" augment usually falls short.

Which I accounteed for in my example, Sniper unsuspected vs. mage Unsuspected. Assuming that the Target I used as an example actually got to react (Reaction 6), he would have had 2 less damage in the initial hit only... which reduces his total from 26 Total Damage to 24 Total Damage in the Pass... Hardly Significant.



Which is rarely sufficient to defend against when the initiator is any good. Whether he is a Mage or a GunBunny...



Which is what I am disagreeing with. I do not agree that Direct Combat Spells are overpowered.



And cannot target things that they cannot see... HUGE DRAWBACK...



Which is not entirely correct. You can have counterspelling placed upon you...
You can have Magic Resistance...
and you can have cover, which always applies...
3 Immediate things that I can think of that counters the effectiveness of Direct Combat Spells.

MOst Mages I have encountered were either Human or Elf. and the Humans generally have vision mods anyways. Vision mods are FAR cheaper than purchasing a Metatype, if all you want is the vision modification of the metatype.



This does help, regardless of whether they are thermographic or not; after all, it provides a thick blanket of smoke that ALSO effects Thermographic sight. It is just as useful against normal sight after all.

First aid may be better than Heal, but that doesn't matter because you can have both anyway. Just make sure to use first aid first.


I always thought that Heal needs a voluntary target. Therefore it would fail completly if you have the Magic Resitance Quality. Is that incorrect?

Heal does not require a voluntary target... Look it up, you will not find it anywhere... About the only spells that do are those in the Detection Category.

Cover does not apply to Direct Combat spells. Unless its total cover, in which case the mage can't see you.

SR4A pg. 160 Defender/Target Has Partial Cover + Defender/Target Has Good Cover

... modifier to his Defense Test ...

Direct Combat Spells do not give you a Defense Test. So the modifier modifies nothing.
These spells are handled differently then other ranged attacks. The source of the problem.
SR4A pg. 183 STEP 5: DETERMINE EFFECT is a general description of determining a spell effect.
Compare SR4A pg. 203 COMBAT SPELLS, Direct Combat Spells says nothing about a Defense Test, just the Opposed Test.
But Indirect Combat Spells (next page) specifically mentions a Defense Test.

If you cannot be seen, but the mage knows where you are an AoF spell in your general direct can cause you some pain.
Just because the mage can't see you, doesn't mean he can't target an AoF at something he can see.

There is a difference between the attacker not being able to see you and the attacker not knowing your there.
If the attacker doesn't know your there his method of attack is meaningless.

As for counterspelling, that's magic defending against magic. Pretty far from mundane.
If you have to bring in Qualities (a character creation mechanic) to defend against, a not uncommon, attack form your reaching.

Thermal smoke is useful yes. But MOST useful versus thermographic vision. But if you can turn off your thermographic the penalty lessens.
Thermographic -6 penalty, Normal Vision -4 penalty, Low-Light Vision -2 penalty. SR4A pg. 152 Visibility Table

The simplest method I have seen to combat the overpower of Direct Combat Spells is to change there damage to:
Force/2 + net hits on the Casting Test (max hits equal to Force)
This has the dual effect of reducing Direct Combat Spell abuse and making the Indirect Combat Spell look a little more competitive.

Odd. I could swear that I read it somewhere. Maybe it was in the 3rd editon.
That makes the Magic Resitance Quality indeed better than I thought.

How can he look it up, if not there?

Seriously though, Heal doesn't require a voluntary target. But you can choose to resist it. Normally you wouldn't.

But, with Magic Resistance you must roll (the Magic Resistance provided dice (1 to 4) only) vs. all spells targeting you,
even Healing, regardless of your needs/desires or even state of consciousness.

Does not work like you might think, all it does is prompt the overuse of Multicasting and Overcasting...

I don't think they are in the slightest.

Also let me note that while it's fairly uncommon to actually keep up Total Defense, and thus get to roll Rea + Dodge vs firearms, any group with a mage will have counterspelling on every member in most cases, which actually makes it more easily resistable. Next to the fact that firearms dicepools tend to vastly exceed the ones for spellcasting. Even when using Called Shots for stuff. Mooks won't have a chance against either. Most professionals will have a chance against both, but won't have to give up any actions for the latter.

A mage casting Manabolt to rival a sniper will have to multicast and generally overcast, risking 5P drain damage twice, to do comparable damage, but splitting his already smaller casting dicepool in two. Sure, an optimised caster can build for that, but so can a gunman. And again, he isn't putting his life on the line.
He also won't have his shot made impossible by a simple pane of one way glass, as you will find in most vehicles. While the mage will have to resort to Powerball to hurt him. Which will cost him another 2 drain. Resisting 7 drain twice will hurt any mage.

Firearms can also ignore range most of the time. Taking aim with a scope will set you up. Surprise will make that all the easier since you can add a Take Aim bonus to boot. Krav Maga turns it into a free action, which will make you always ignore range as long as you stick to one target.

Ooops... Wrong Button... Nothing to see here... But I do agree...

Edited for clarification

I'm not saying Magic, in general, is overpowered. Just Direct Combat Spells.

@Mardrax
Counterspelling makes a point for me. Only magic can effectively protect agianst magic. While magic can counter non-magic just fine.
Mundanes need to "count" on some-else to get counterspelling. Its not something they can do for themselves.

Arguing drain balances Direct Combat Spells is non-sense. You might as well argue paying for ammunition balances firearms.
The target's defense doesn't benefit because the mage risks drain. The effect/damage to the target is the same regardless of the type/amount of drain.
But, putting on armor does effect the target's defense vs. a firearm attack.\
There is no "armor" a mundane can put on that helps protect him from Direct Combat Spells, he has to rely on someone or something else to improve his defense.
This reliance on external forces for defense is pretty must unique to Direct Combat Spells.

If there is a target, who is heavily armored, moving quickly, through non-total cover, a good distance away, on a clear day,
then the mage with Powerbolt, who suffers no negative pool modifiers to the Casting Test (from the distance or movement, without any effort on the casters part)
AND ignores the target's armor, AND ignores the target's cover, PLUS doesn't allow Defense or Damage Resistance Tests, has a better chance vs. the target then the guy with the gun. Period.

The overpower of Direct Combat Spells is not in what the spells do themselves, but the detrimental conditions/modifiers that they ignore.
Pretty much everything, but visibility and wound modifiers.

So, again; I'm not arguing that Magic, as a whole, is overpowered.
Just that Direct Combat Spells are, and I realize some specific case may also be.

You know, after thinking about it, I would probably revise my first house rule. I would still allow the equivalent of full defense for resisting a spell, but instead of requiring a mundane version of counterspelling, I would just let them use double their Willpower.

Another house rule I would use would be to put hard limits on initiation (as well as submersion). In a game with hard limits for everything else, it makes no sense for mages, adepts, and technomancers to be even theoretically capable of unlimited advancement. I am aware that this would only really affect high-powered campaigns and NPCs such as immortal elves, but I still think this is part of the game that should be brought back in line with how the rest of the game world works.

Direct combat spells are really not that overpowered, most of the time. They were actually far, far more powerful in Third Edition, where instant kills were much easier for a mage to get.

Carrying AP or EX-EX rounds won't kill the carrier, nor will shooting them, barring a critical glitch for the latter.


You'd want to ask the mage and the sam whose offense is more limited by chances of blowing themselves away. Limiting offense is a way of balancing defense. Next to that, game balance is nothing more than a way of saying two different characters can put in comparable efforts at completing a certain task, in this case "gimp the guy". Drain definitely limits the mage here, while the sam with his belt-fed HVR minigun will just keep on going, overacheiving on the mage in round 2, if not round 1.


It seems unique to magic in general. The situation is true for a lot more cases though. You defend against Social skills with Social skills, you defend against Hacking with Computer skills. Difference is, using magic requires a 10 BP investment in a quality, at least. On top of all that stuff a gunman needs, plus extraneous ammounts of money to be good, and karma to bond the gear.


I'll let you answer yourself here.

Also, oh yes the mage suffers a penalty due to distance, non-total cover and whatnot. If the target is hard to be seen, the GM should require a Perception check to see him at all. The mage needs to make this in order to target him at all, which is not so for the gunman, who can just attack using Blind Fire rules instead, if he's aware of an enemy.


And background count, which doesn't burden the gunman one bit (unless he's an Adept) but can potentially make the mage unable to do anything at all with his 120+ BP investment.

Any character will be better suited to some environment than another. Arguing fringe cases is not making a proper argument. All it means is the "defender" will have to be more creative in dealing with his assailant if normal tactics don't work.

The problem with the Background Count card is that it is completely dependable on each GM, some GM's believe that EVERY shantytown and barrens will have Background 1 or 2 by default, while some believe that only the worst places of these locations deserve BC, like the building where families were burned alive by gangers, or a basement where gladiatorial fights happen.

And if a GM thinks the mage is getting too powerful, they can make BC's more common...also give a larger nuyen reward. When people think the mage is overpowered, it's usually because they are giving 6-8 karma a run but only 3k-6k nuyen when they should be giving 10k-20k nuyen.

Isn't tis the same as some GMs sprinkling the proverbial crates and chest-high walls all over the place as if you're playing Gears of War, while some prefer the cleaner "warehouse with all shelves stocked full, but only above shoulder-level" approach?
Situational modifiers are ALWAYS dependant on how the GM wings it, possibly adjusted by how the players poke him, and how he handles player freedom on adjucating minor things.

Yes, but this also opens other doors. As a magician you may go astral. This alone is nearly worth the 15 BP (compared to other qualitys).


Again this has a lot of other uses. This would be like asking the gunbunny to buy every ranged weapon skill in the book. Because he just might not have a pistol at hand.


Well, and with ware it is easy to boos reaktion but very hard to boost willpower.

Well, if you play a mage to deal damage, you might just be an idiot. And may be you deserve to be outperformed by the gunbunny.


So what? I think the gunbunny should outperform the mage three two four times if it comes down to kill other people.


And it should be, because you can't heal with a weapon, you can't hide with a weapon, you can't build stuff with a weapon, you can't find stuff with a weapon, you can't read minds with a weapon etc.


Yes, because I get a Sniper inside, lets say, an airport. Stunbolt? No problem. Powerbolt? No Problem.


Well, so the gun bunny is better at killing people the mage ist better at EVERY THING ELSE. So who got the better deal?

I have never considered Direct Damage all that much of a threat. There are just way to many ways to negate much of the lethality, even mundanely.

Everyone who opserves. If a squirrel blasts somebodys head in a back ally, who would know? And if the police investigates the scene a day later, there is no clue to be found what happened. (How you get to -7 dices is a mystery to me)

@Brazilian_Shinobi
The problem with the background Count card is, that it seem somehow not thought through.
Even the common described BC (1-2) (Streetmagic) packs a hell of a punch.
A BC 2 cripples a Magic 4 mage extremly. BC is a set of rules begging to get houseruled.

@Mardrax

Once Again.

The drain argument is bunk, when trying to determine balance.

The cost to make the attack, is not a balance against the effect of the attack on the target.
If your shot in the face with single .45 round, if it costs 1$ or 100$, your chances of being dead are the same.

If a mage casts a powerbolt spell that that drops his target, the target stays dropped, even if drain causes the mage to burst into flame and die.
Drain itself doesn't stop or limit the casting of spells. Even with one physical box left a mage can still over cast his spell.

Using EX-EX can kill the user by the way. Just like Explosive Rounds. Not likely, but possible. Just like drain.
Oh, and you can't HVAR a minigun either. Just SMGs and Assault Rifles.

Your other examples are bogus. There are things any mundane can do to boost their Social dice.
Not so, for their defense when targeted by a Direct Combat Spell.

For the last time. This is not, was never, a comparison of damage potential to guys with guns.
The overpower of Direct Combat Spells is that FACT there is almost nothing a mundane target can do to improves is own chances vs. a Direct Damage Spell.

When determining the result of the casting of a Direct Combat Spell Movement, Range and all other modifiers from the Ranged Combat Modifiers Table table, except visibility impairment (which is a table on is own to boot) do not effect the Casting Test. When resolving the damage from a Direct Combat Spell armor is stated to be ignored. Cover provides a bonus to Defense Tests, Direct Combat Spells do not allow a Defense Test.

The resolution to a Direct Combat Spell is not a Damage Resistance Test, it is a (specific to Direct Combat Spells) Opposed Test
pitting the targets Willpower (1 to 8 or 9) or Body (1 to 10 or 11) agianst the Force of the Spell, Plus the Hits on the Casting Test.
A situation in which the mage will always have the upper hand agianst a mundane. Unless outside magical forces (like counterspelling) are involved.

Since its not a Damage Resistance Test, any bonuses you have to Damage Resistance Tests
(from bone lacing, bone density augmentation, Troll dermal Armour, etc.) means diddly.

Your perception argument is nonsense as well. Perception Tests are completely different and unrelated to the rolling of a Casting Test.

Background Count is not under the control of the mundane Target any more then the weather.
Also, the cause of high Background Count is usually much worse for everyone then the Count itself.
And manipulation of BC is heavy handed. If a mage in a game rarely encounter negative background then suddenly the GM starts imposing it everywhere, that player has every right to call the GM on it.
BC ranges from -12 to +12. And BC can be manipulated by the proper magical user.
BC in not universally bad for mages. background count can be positive and provide bonuses as well.

@Slide7X

Wrong. If the target gets 4 hits and the spell has 4 hits, the spell fails. So to have a 50% Chance to affect a target, the mage would need 3 more dices.


Lets step away from the overpowered build and but it down to the basics.
A out of chargen mage would have around 9 dices for combat spells. 5 Magic and 4 Spellcasting.
The avarage Sam would have 3 points of willpower.
If running the shadows you get partial light most of the time.
Now the mage is throwing 7 dices against 3. Meaning he will be effective around 60%-70%. Thats not that bad.

SO, you and I agree that magic is situational, just like the Sniper is. Imagine that. If you actually believe everything you typed above, then you must also agree that the Mage is not Overpowered (He may be vastly more versatile, but he pays the price for such versatility), nor are Direct Damage Spells Overpowered. They all have their niches where they will shine. And for the Record, I believe that the Gunbunny/Street Samurai can be just as versatile, just in a different way. One will be magically versatile, the other will be mundanely versatile. Both are very necessary in any team to succeed.

As for the Minimum -7, an internal Silencer with an electornic firing mechanism imparts a -7 to the Aural Detection of the Shot... Looks like a -7 to me. Could go higher, of course, dependant upon circumstances, as I pointed out above.



Why? So the Mage goes from Magic 4 to Magic 2, and adds a few points of Drain. Entirely approppriate if you take the fluff into account for the game world. The Mage is NOT crippled, and I find it highly amusing that everyone who has even the slightest aversion to Background Count resorts to this argument. Maybe the Mage should invest in a few other things for those occasional situations where background Count becomes an issue (after all, Background count rarely rises above 2, even in the most vile of places). That is what I tend to do.

Once again indeed.
Most mages will still need two spells to drop someone. Which makes drain meaningful for the target's survivability. Also, the mage will consider chances of his continued existence when overcasting, likely limiting the F he uses.


If the cost is inhibitively high, like the cost of routinely slinging around F10 spells is, the chances of being targeted by such an attack are slim. You average ganger will not be using 100 a pop ammo. Like no corp will routinely use either fighter jets, main battle tanks or thor shots against a target.


A minigun is beyond HVAR by default. Can someone say 20DV narrow burst? Or how about negating 14 points of Reaction+Dodge? While negating 5 armor as well? Or just ignoring 2, while adding a DV? Or hell. How about doing 20S(e)?


Which is exactly the standard a mage's balance should be compared to. And exactly the difference we're discussing.


So if direct damage spells aren't in your view unbalanced when compared with the mundane and 'normal' way of doing damage, what are they unbalanced with?


Being able to see is a requirement for being allowed to make a casting test at all, for anything but AOE spells. So no, they aren't just related. Passing one is a prerequisite.


On the contrary. Background Count is usually caused by mundane actions. Either way, the construction of chest-high walls is generally out of the purview of a combat situation as well.


Like everything else encountered by players, really?


Only for magicians with the proper metamagic, with months of preparation available in the area he's expecting to need it.
The same for any mundane means of substantial battlefield engineering, really. Though time requirements tend to be far lower on the mundane end.