Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[sabs]

It means Technomancers don't really have incentive to be raising their complex forms very high.

[Hida Tsuzua]

The key with drones is to throw out the 'sensor rating' and instead use individual sensors independently.

Oh yeah, that's the way to do it (be sure to check capacity!). In fact, I've made Bust-a-Move drones into what I call TacNet Buddy whose job is to count as extra people so you can get your rating 4 tacnet when your group is smaller than 6.

However, several things are annoying about the process. It never does say that drones can qualify in this manner (it just says for drones provide channels equal to sensor). It's reasonable and I'm sure most GM's would allow it, but it's not exactly laid out. And if you do, you'll have to refer to drone sensor capacity and the default setup that often breaks it. It's not well laid out at all when it could have been so much easier.

[Yerameyahu]

Something like that, James McMurray. Don't forget that there's precedent for splitting into tiers: (1-3), (4-6), etc. It might be easier to simply increase the multiplier after 6.

[James McMurray]

Something like that, James McMurray. Don't forget that there's precedent for splitting into tiers: (1-3), (4-6), etc. It might be easier to simply increase the multiplier after 6.

True, that would especially fit well with the software pricing that already exists.

[Wakshaani]

Something like that, James McMurray. Don't forget that there's precedent for splitting into tiers: (1-3), (4-6), etc. It might be easier to simply increase the multiplier after 6.

Hrm,
1-3
4-6
7-9
10

(Or would you go 10-12? Either way, a listed cap isn't a bad idea.)

Hrm...

[sabs]

Another thing to do, to be a complete bastard.
programming options, instead of being programmed separately, add to the total.

[sabs]

I feel like 10, should require access to UV nodes, and AI software assistance, and I would be way happier if 10 never came up, except when doing runs against ZOG.

[Yerameyahu]

So, increasing the multiplier would render the Threshold on a Hacking program as:

Rating 1-6 => 2-12 (x2, or normal)
Rating 7-9 => 21-27 (x3, or +1)
Rating 10 (or 10-12) => 40-48 (x4, or +2)

Admittedly, this collapses the difference within tiers (e.g., 9 isn't much harder than 7), so it's a very different curve than sabs described. It all really depends on what you're going for. (If you want to keep 10 really special, which is fine, then you'd just hard-cap it.)

In general, I subscribe to the 'don't invent unprecedented new mechanics' rule, and SR4 is a largely linear-scaling system.

It's possibly also a good idea to apply the increased multiplier to any options you add (so Optimization 6 on a rating 7 hacking program would be Threshold 21 + Threshold 12).

Don't forget that rating determines the number of Options you can have, which does help make a 9 (4 options) better than a 7 (3 options), beyond the basic +2. This is mostly an issue for attack programs, but they can *really* benefit.

[sabs]

Thing is, I want to encourage hackers to build their own program suites. It's good. You should want your own exploit program you wrote yourself, with the options that work best for you.

Exploit, ergonomic, crashguard, optimized. That's something I should be encouraged to build myself.

Current incentives:
Bought software is registered, has planned degradation, (1 rating/(2)month), unknown limitations.
Pirated Software: Degredation, unknown options added in. (Psychotropic, virus, bugs, tracers, etc), limitations.

You know what's in your programmed software.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've never really pondered the influence of the Skill+Attr (Max Prog/CF) rule on technomancers.

Do you think it makes hacker advancement (karma/cashwise) and technomancer advancement more similar? I.e. technomancers a bit less karma-draining, and hackers a tad more?

In some ways, yes... Technomancers are not pushed to quickly obtain high CF's, as they can thread , and it is easier. There is no longer a reason to thread to CF 10 unless it is absolutely necessary... Where the normal rules encourages it.

It forces Hackers to BE Hackers and not Script Kiddies. No More DUMP Stat on Logic... And Skills mean more than Programs do.

At least in My Opinion anyways...

[Ascalaphus]

You can still play "bought smarts": skillwires, cerebral booster and good programs. But that's clearly a second-best thing.

I've thought about squared availability/programming thresholds too. In the end it comes down to what you as a GM want from it.

On the one hand, it seems preposterous that a single person has any chance to keep up with the billion-dollar research projects of the megacorps. On the other hand, it's cool and cyberpunk.



I'm thinking about some different approach. Writing from scratch would be really hard, but before you begin a big hacking operation, you can use Software to tweak your programs to optimize them against the enemy; getting the latest exploits and patches, studying system-specific weaknesses.

It'd be basically reversing the Unwired idea; instead of making keeping up to SOTA absurdly hard (with an annoying software degradation system), it makes hackers effective because they're faster to adopt new technology than corporate IT bureaucracies.

A given Software-Skill boost to Matrix effectiveness would be good for only limited time, dependent on the quality of the enemy; it'd stay "fresh" for days against a R3 system, but only hours against an R6 system. As long as it's fresh, you get some sort of bonus for being more up to date than they are.

[Yerameyahu]

And that's how it should: script kiddies can get very respectable (Rating 6) 'basic' levels, while people who invest in Logic and skills above 4 will be better. That's better than nuking script kiddies out of the game (TJ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), and it rewards another investment/development path.

I'm fine with a truly amazing, legendary shadowrunner hacker beating a corp (possibly just in one or two areas). It's just early/starter runners doing it (easily) that's a problem. It ruins the cool, for me, and cyberpunk is also about pretty unforgiving competition and inequality.

[PoliteMan]

What about using rating squared as the base threshold? It'd make lower rating software really easy, but you can get those as freeware anyway. Once you start trying to do milspec stuff you're looking at 49+ difficulties. Then tack on a little more for hacking software, autosofts, and the other types that are supposed to be harder.

As I recall, SR3 did a varient of this and it worked really well. As I recall, it was basically rating² multiplied by a static number 1-4 representing the complexity/power of the program.

So, increasing the multiplier would render the Threshold on a Hacking program as:

Rating 1-6 => 2-12 (x2, or normal)
Rating 7-9 => 21-27 (x3, or +1)
Rating 10 (or 10-12) => 40-48 (x4, or +2)

I'm not sure thresholds, or rather just thresholds, is the way to go. I'd prefer to see a mechanic that lengthens the interval between tests. Consider, for example, coding a R7-9 program, don't increase the threshold but double the interval (from 1 to 2 months). Higher thresholds, thanks to diminishing dice on extended tests, might keep non-optimized characters from coding, while even optimized hackers have few options to decrease the interval (all requiring either monetary investments, edge, or risk)

Linux is crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And a truly massive, ancient project. These aren't examples of trillion-dollar nation-corps losing to one criminal mercenary.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) Fine, no politics, religion, or open source.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And that's how it should: script kiddies can get very respectable (Rating 6) 'basic' levels, while people who invest in Logic and skills above 4 will be better. That's better than nuking script kiddies out of the game (TJ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), and it rewards another investment/development path.

I'm fine with a truly amazing, legendary shadowrunner hacker beating a corp (possibly just in one or two areas). It's just early/starter runners doing it (easily) that's a problem. It ruins the cool, for me, and cyberpunk is also about pretty unforgiving competition and inequality.

The Optional System does not Nuke the Script Kiddies out of the Game Yerameyahu, it just relegates them to their own, insignificant little niche... Very Different, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Good point, PoliteMan. The Threshold/interval issue is really just the same thing, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The intent is mostly to slow them down (though barring lower DP coders from the highest programs *is* an intended feature, for me).

And I'm at least 51% teasing about Linux. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The real point is that it's a massive, ancient project.

--
That's nuking, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[capt.pantsless]

I'm not sure thresholds, or rather just thresholds, is the way to go. I'd prefer to see a mechanic that lengthens the interval between tests.

You could also start applying software degradation rules from the moment they start programing. After all, the SOTA is going to be moving just as fast while the programmer is designing and programming as it is once they're finished.

Along with glitches, that should prevent non-Uber coders from ever finishing a rating 10 exploit program.


That aside, I tend to think that crafting your own stuff in-game is sorta cool, and I'd rather not overly restrict it. If one of my players wants to take a shot at creating a rating 9 attack program, I'm not going to work to stop them (much).

[Yerameyahu]

They don't have to go straight for 9, either. They can start from 6 and just bump it a few times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Decreasing DP, glitches? Problems gone. So there's a lot of factors in play here.

[sabs]

To me something linux like is the Hacker System of choice. The ones that run Rating 6 systems, are running some kind of Linuxequivalent for 2072 System.

The Matrix system is too broad, and too abstract in certain areas, and too specific in others.

It ignores differences in FileSystems, OS, Hardware. If I'm Ares, why is everyone of my employees and subsidiaries not using WarOS 4.0. If I'm MCT, everyone should be using either Cyberdine Commlink, or Cyberdine Nexus. The game talks about proprietary file systems, and file types.

There's not enough flavor in the Programs. Especially since people look at you like you're a chump if you don't have Rating 6 programs out of the char gen.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

--
That's nuking, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That is relegating them to their proper place, in my opinion... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[sabs]

I thoguht script kiddies were the ones who bought agents with exploit programs

[Yerameyahu]

No, those are the ones that even script kiddies look down on. Everyone needs someone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, those are the ones that even script kiddies look down on. Everyone needs someone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, I dislike the blandness of programs too. I've though about an alternative:

Suppose you start treating programs like say, guns. There's a bunch of different programs for the same thing (breaking in), but they have all kinds of different traits, like cost, reliability, power, hardware issues and so forth.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I dislike the blandness of programs too. I've though about an alternative:

Suppose you start treating programs like say, guns. There's a bunch of different programs for the same thing (breaking in), but they have all kinds of different traits, like cost, reliability, power, hardware issues and so forth.

Sort of like CP2020 with its hundreds of Programs? Could work, but the system would really need to be redesigned a bit, I would think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Eh. I've tried my hand at burning down the current system and redesigning from the ground up. Unfortunately, it IS rather hard to design a good Matrix ruleset.