Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eh. I've tried my hand at burning down the current system and redesigning from the ground up. Unfortunately, it IS rather hard to design a good Matrix ruleset.

It is... I actually like the current system (optional Rules employed, however). Of course, it oculd have more "spice" I guess, though some of that could be taken care of by the players and GM in how they describe the Matrix.

There could be more options, in my opinion, though I am not sure where to go from where we already are.

CP2020 had an interesting method, but you had to track a lot of things. I like the simplicity we currently have, but it would be nice if it were a bit more complex without providing too much overhead. That is always the problem, though. The more complex it is, the less accessible it becomes.

[longbowrocks]

Now, whether they have a sufficient number of sensor channels is another question altogether...

As I said: tacsofts they can never use.
contributed senses <= sensor rating for drone
contributed senses >= tacsoft rating X2 to be member of group.
tacsoft rating = 3-4
no drone sensor rating exceeds 4

We have here two disjunct sets.

[longbowrocks]

Linux is crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I can't tell if the wink mean you're trolling. I'll just point out that code people write as a hobby is orders of magnitude better than code they write for a paycheck.

[longbowrocks]

The key with drones is to throw out the 'sensor rating' and instead use individual sensors independently.

That's what I'd like to do, but for now we're arguing RAW.

[longbowrocks]

It forces Hackers to BE Hackers and not Script Kiddies. No More DUMP Stat on Logic... And Skills mean more than Programs do.

Hackers are skill + program (hacking + exploit)
Script kiddies are attribute + program (douche baggery + exploit)

There! Problem solved.

[Fatum]

As I said: tacsofts they can never use.
contributed senses <= sensor rating for drone
contributed senses >= tacsoft rating X2 to be member of group.
tacsoft rating = 3-4
no drone sensor rating exceeds 4

We have here two disjunct sets.

If you don't have enough sensor channels to run the tacnet at its maximal rating, you still get the benefits of whatever rating your number of sensor channels can support. That is, for your example, 2.

That's what I'd like to do, but for now we're arguing RAW.

Improved sensors from Arsenal allows you to upgrade the Sensor package of your drone (or vehicle), and iirc it's openly suggested to individually track the ratings of the sensors.

[longbowrocks]

If you don't have enough sensor channels to run the tacnet at its maximal rating, you still get the benefits of whatever rating your number of sensor channels can support. That is, for your example, 2.

In that case your entire group gets a bonus of only 2, because if you run it at a higher rating, you can't be a member of the group.

Improved sensors from Arsenal allows you to upgrade the Sensor package of your drone (or vehicle), and iirc it's openly suggested to individually track the ratings of the sensors.

Yeah, I've read that, but I never quite got it. As far as I can tell it doesn't change the number displayed for sensor on the drone stats. On quick review, I can't find any way to relate the sensor package system directly to the drone sensor rating system. Even the table in SR4A doesn't show any direct correlation.

[Fatum]

Yeah, but if your group is a bunch of drones to begin with, they still get two dice to a bunch of tests. Which is rather nice.

Arsenal has the rules describing which sensors the sensor suites for drones and vehicles include.

[SpellBinder]

The Sensor Rating of a drone is its base dice pool for perception tests of the physical world (SR4a, page 245). It's a measure of how observant a drone is (along with the Clearsight autosoft), not how many sensor channels it has.

A trideo camera with low light & thermographic enhancements counts as three sensor channels. Ultrasound, radar, and motion sensors would make up three more channels. If you're able to mount all of that into a single drone you've got six sensor channels for a tacnet. Two more and you're capped for a Rating 4 Tacsoft. Then it's a matter of making sure there's enough drones in the network.

[longbowrocks]

Yeah, but if your group is a bunch of drones to begin with, they still get two dice to a bunch of tests. Which is rather nice.

Arsenal has the rules describing which sensors the sensor suites for drones and vehicles include.

Definitely, it's great. I was just pointing out that the drones with tacsofts in WAR have rating 3-4. No drone can ever use a tacsoft at rating 3-4.

[longbowrocks]

The Sensor Rating of a drone is its base dice pool for perception tests of the physical world (SR4a, page 245). It's a measure of how observant a drone is (along with the Clearsight autosoft), not how many sensor channels it has.

I hope so. Let me look it up more in depth.

Nope. Here's my issue: "each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating." UN125

[SpellBinder]

Hmm, missed that part. Honestly I can take that one of a few ways.

One is the way you are, that a drone's Sensor Rating is how many channels it provides and that's it.

The other is that a drone's Sensor Rating is in addition to other sensor systems. The whole line is, after all, "Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating." It doesn't say anything about any sensors installed in the drone, which could mean they are added in.

In all honesty I'd ignore that "each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating." part of the line and go with what's actually installed in the drone instead. Probably what the writers of WAR did when they put those rating 3 & 4 tacsofts in the drones. It also makes things more consistent between everything, people and drones. Besides, if taken the other way one could argue that a drone with a Sensor Rating of 4 provides 4 channels to a tacnet and doesn't have to have a single sensor installed (doesn't make sense to me that way, but I know people will try to argue that).

[longbowrocks]

It's pretty obvious what they mean, but I'm always open to something that opens up more options.

[Fatum]

Definitely, it's great. I was just pointing out that the drones with tacsofts in WAR have rating 3-4. No drone can ever use a tacsoft at rating 3-4.

Well, no drone in default configuration can.
But that's War for you, why are you surprised.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As I said: tacsofts they can never use.
contributed senses <= sensor rating for drone
contributed senses >= tacsoft rating X2 to be member of group.
tacsoft rating = 3-4
no drone sensor rating exceeds 4

We have here two disjunct sets.

Just means that you only have to upgrade the sensor Suite... That tacsoft program is damn expensive.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hackers are skill + program (hacking + exploit)
Script kiddies are attribute + program (douche baggery + exploit)

There! Problem solved.

Otherway around, actually... But you have the right idea...

[sabs]

Well, except that according to Arsenal, if I install 1 R6 camera into say a FlySpy, it suddenly has a sensor rating of 6. Even if I don't install anything else.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, except that according to Arsenal, if I install 1 R6 camera into say a FlySpy, it suddenly has a sensor rating of 6. Even if I don't install anything else.

Indeed... Sensor Suite Upgrade, as was stated above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Indeed... Sensor Suite Upgrade, as was stated above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know but Fatum and Longbowrocks were being grognards about that 1 line in Unwired (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[deek]

I was just thinking (as I read the last days worth of posts), that the game designers may have been looking at programming your own stuff in a different light, which may justify the great length of time it takes to not only code, but patch your own stuff. They may have been thinking about it from a reselling perspective. If a hacker can code his own program too quick, make a bajillion copies and then sell it for tons of cash, well, that can easily be taken advantage of. The hacker then just codes and makes way more money selling programs and patches then going on runs.

I think there could be room in the current rules to add, say a program option, to a homemade program that restricts the hacker from every copying it to another commlink (basically, it only runs where they coded it and can never be transferred), in exchange for much faster build times. This may close the loop allowing the hacker to code his own shit and handle all his own patches to fight degradation, but do it in much faster times so he could actually have all his own software coded. The tradeoff would be you can't share it or profit from it.

It would be a single option to add. Fairly simple concept that might put one big chunk of these issues to rest.

[sabs]

That already exists in some way. It's called Limitation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

Indeed... Sensor Suite Upgrade, as was stated above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He's talking about the confusing mess that is the errataed rules for individual sensors on drones, not the sensor upgrade mod. Its quite legal to have enough sensor channels on a drone to use R4 Tac-soft, you just need degrees in accounting and rules lawyering to pull it off.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He's talking about the confusing mess that is the errataed rules for individual sensors on drones, not the sensor upgrade mod. Its quite legal to have enough sensor channels on a drone to use R4 Tac-soft, you just need degrees in accounting and rules lawyering to pull it off.

No, actually you don't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No degrees needed at all... And no rules lawyering either. It is quite simple. Either use the Sensor Rating and upgrade it (A single Camera with a Rating of 6 upgrades the Entire Suite of 1 Sensor to a rating of 6, which will handle a R3 Tacnet) OR you use Individual channels, like metahumans do, and spend the money to upgrade each and every sensor with enough "channels" to handle a R4 Tacnet. It really is not all that difficult to understand. You just have to pick your option at that point. And be consistent, no switching back and forth between options.

I tend to choose the second option, as it tends to cost a bit more, and I have no problems with it costing more. I like the flavour of "Modes" for the Sensors, which is what I see as giving you your Tactical options, rather than some amorphous "Rating" which supposedly covers it all. They both work, but they function in very different ways.

[Fatum]

I know but Fatum and Longbowrocks were being grognards about that 1 line in Unwired (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Please note that I'm being a grognard about the whole idea of Sensor as a stat for drones instead of listing which sensors it has explicitly and allowing the rigger to mod them at any time, without installing any vehicle upgrades or anything, just like that. I understand that SR4 (unlike the previous editions, far as I see) is not aiming to be a simulationist system, so I accept the ruling as is.

[sabs]

That rule was written outside of the existence of the Arsenal Sensor upgrade rules.

Don't get me wrong, the sensor rules are stupid. But by dealing with individual sensors and sensor capacities in a drone, you are /much/ better off balance while, and flexibility wise. Sure you run into problems that microdrones can have a camera, or a microphone, and if they have a microphone, you're nto quite sure HOW they move (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but.. that's a different story.