[X] My Assistant

[Rubic]

Just because it's considered rude to use your social skills on your own team does NOT give them the right to openly and blatantly ignore the fact that your character is attractive (socially at least), persuasive, and generally the kind of person they want to be around. If your team is metagaming and ignoring such things, I say turn about is fair play when you force them to roll in order to NOT treat your character well.

[Dez384]

Let's also remember that Seduction is not a skill; it is specialization of Con.

[Christian Lafay]

Just because it's considered rude to use your social skills on your own team does NOT give them the right to openly and blatantly ignore the fact that your character is attractive (socially at least), persuasive, and generally the kind of person they want to be around. If your team is metagaming and ignoring such things, I say turn about is fair play when you force them to roll in order to NOT treat your character well.

Reminds me of the face that wanted to be a sniper for a mission. The discussion went from IC to OCC.
Sniper: Why be sniper? I have 15 dice for it. Do you even have a gun skill?
Face: No, but I have 28 dice in Negotiation. Hand over the rifle.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Reminds me of the face that wanted to be a sniper for a mission. The discussion went from IC to OCC.
Sniper: Why be sniper? I have 15 dice for it. Do you even have a gun skill?
Face: No, but I have 28 dice in Negotiation. Hand over the rifle.

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dez384]

Reminds me of the face that wanted to be a sniper for a mission. The discussion went from IC to OCC.
Sniper: Why be sniper? I have 15 dice for it. Do you even have a gun skill?
Face: No, but I have 28 dice in Negotiation. Hand over the rifle.

I could see the sniper letting the face take a shot. Once. Then take the gun back in disgust (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[ShadowWalker]

For a mundane face, tailored pheromones and a vocal range enhancer are the most reliable. A face is one of those builds where you can get 30+ dice, but can get by with 12 or so most of the time. Adepts are good, because kinesics give another +3 dice and are not obvious. Empathy software is a gimme, if you allow it (I think it is overpowered dice pool inflation myself, and a lot of tables ban the stuff). Qualities such as first impression, or some cosmetic surgery, can add dice.

Some things to watch out for - glamour is nice, but makes your character dangerously memorable, and makes it hard to blend into the crowd. Enhanced pheromone receptors can give you penalties in fairly common situations (crowds, strong odors) and make you more vulnerable to tailored pheromones - the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion. Fame is a bad idea most of the time - and note that getting the bonus from it always involves revealing your real identity.

Other things a face needs - lots of languages, decent data search ability (a good commlink with some linguisofts and an agent can help a lot with this, if you are tight on points), a high perception, the ability to disguise yourself, and an extensive network of contacts. I did a version of a more traditional face here. It was intended as a sample character, so not very min-maxed, although it would be easy to tweak it to add things like tailored pheromones and empathy software to it.

My opinion on all of the Sensor software is that when used by a player to augment their own personal ability it should work as if they are doing team work.
Roll the dice add any successes to your own dice pool. I really don't like it just adding dice right on top.

[Rubic]

Reminds me of the face that wanted to be a sniper for a mission. The discussion went from IC to OCC.
Sniper: Why be sniper? I have 15 dice for it. Do you even have a gun skill?
Face: No, but I have 28 dice in Negotiation. Hand over the rifle.

There is a decided difference between treating somebody well and capitulating to their every whim. The sniper could rightly have demanded proof of the face's ability before allowing him to waste one of the sniping bullets. High charisma & social, though, would more or less indicate that the sniper would likely give him the opportunity to prove himself, and not be too doubtful in the mean time. It's the difference between Assertive and Passive-Aggressive. Assertive is confident, unafraid of confrontation though not necessarily seeking argument; Passive-Aggressive avoids confrontation while seeking argument (in so many words). Also, something to remind the face, he doesn't always get his full 28 dice; there's negatives for stepping on the specialist's toes (in th is case, the sniper, who has clearly demonstrated/been hired for his ability), therby insulting the specialist (another negative), potentially placing the operation at risk (racking up the negatives here), potentially ruining the sniper's reputation if he fails (cut out some more), and so on, and so on... Sure, he may have a decent amount of dice remaining after all the negatives are taken out for situational modifiers, but then there's still the threshhold to pass (I'd say willpower + 2 or something like that). A face who abuses his ability will rack up notoriety/negative reputation. Caveat emptor, after all.

Still, this does NOT disqualify my statement above about players mistreating their face DESPITE stats and situations that indicate quite the opposite. Mistreat the face who has proven themselves to be unreliable/detrimental, not the one who's yet to be proven so.

[suoq]

In addition to the above.

Face rule #273: You can't draw blood from a stone.

The Johnson is working off a flat fee. The client has 15,000 for the team to get the job done. The Johnson knows this is not enough, has informed the client it's not enough, but is presenting you with the contract anyway because he's getting paid to and you gotta pay rent. He's offering the full 15,000 because he figures he can at least explain the offer with no serious damage to his reputation. Heck, you might even take it. Offering you 12,000 with the intent of pocketing the 3,000 wouldn't do any good if he knows you wouldn't take the 12,000 anyway and you finding out the real offer just sinks his rep. At least this way he gets the flat fee and a reputation for being honest, at least once.

So, no matter how many dice the face rolls. You ain't getting paid more. From a certain standpoint, if you do roll those dice, and the client is at the meet, the client (believing everything the face tells him) starts walking away from the table. The face inadvertently convinces the client he can't afford it.

Face rule #347: The sky isn't green.

Back in feudal Japan, one of the ways they detected ninjas was by having a small child send a spinning top in the suspected ninja's path. If it was a ninja, they would make a graceful movement to avoid it that only a trained ninja would do.

I don't care how many dice you roll. You may even convince me that you are a noble prize winning historian who is an expert on feudal Japan. I might buy that, but I'm not buying this for an instant. Mythbusters could do a 3 hour special proving it and I'm still not buying it anymore than you're buying the suggestion that somewhere there's a list of face rules that goes up to 347.

[Christian Lafay]

In addition to the above.

Face rule #273: You can't draw blood from a stone.

The Johnson is working off a flat fee. The client has 15,000 for the team to get the job done. The Johnson knows this is not enough, has informed the client it's not enough, but is presenting you with the contract anyway because he's getting paid to and you gotta pay rent. He's offering the full 15,000 because he figures he can at least explain the offer with no serious damage to his reputation. Heck, you might even take it. Offering you 12,000 with the intent of pocketing the 3,000 wouldn't do any good if he knows you wouldn't take the 12,000 anyway and you finding out the real offer just sinks his rep. At least this way he gets the flat fee and a reputation for being honest, at least once.

So, no matter how many dice the face rolls. You ain't getting paid more. From a certain standpoint, if you do roll those dice, and the client is at the meet, the client (believing everything the face tells him) starts walking away from the table. The face inadvertently convinces the client he can't afford it.

While true we have seen print missions that have just that scenario mapped out. Granted the mission is a little odd, the Johnson comes to the table with some cash that is a decent amount. But if the rolls are right you walk away with his van too, if I remember correctly. Not saying it will always go down that way, or even most of the time. But if something can be done once it can be done again. Over in another thread where movies were being discussed Ronin came up a lot. Whether or not it is a SR movie is not really focus here, but more the negotiation style of the lead character.

[suoq]

Three things I'll never understand.
1) Why they agreed to pay Sam and the team in Ronin 100K in advance.
2) Why Sam asked for the money in the first place. That makes NO sense by the time the movie is over.
3) Negotiation scenes in Missions.

"You want us to kidnap someone from a AAA cocktail party with no advance notice, no recon, and we're getting paid how much money? What is this, amateur night?"

[Christian Lafay]

Three things I'll never understand.
1) Why they agreed to pay Sam and the team in Ronin 100K in advance.
2) Why Sam asked for the money in the first place. That makes NO sense by the time the movie is over.
3) Negotiation scenes in Missions.

"You want us to kidnap someone from a AAA cocktail party with no advance notice, no recon, and we're getting paid much money? What is this, amateur night?"

1) Rep goes a long way.
2) His 401K sucks
3) Agreed. Heh

[Glyph]

Just because it's considered rude to use your social skills on your own team does NOT give them the right to openly and blatantly ignore the fact that your character is attractive (socially at least), persuasive, and generally the kind of person they want to be around. If your team is metagaming and ignoring such things, I say turn about is fair play when you force them to roll in order to NOT treat your character well.

On the flip side, why should they bother doing anything other than metagame if the player of the face is metagaming? By which, I mean that most of these bullshit examples I see (the face who wants to be a sniper, etc.) are not a face acting like an attractive, socially adept character, but a pushy, obnoxious asshole.

I may have used a bit of hyperbole in my previous descriptions of social skills, but I was trying to describe scenes like the would-be-sniper and other examples of faces that I have seen on these boards, and how they can, and should, breed a lot of resentment.

I'm not saying that it has to be that way, but using social skills on other PCs can be tricky enough with cooperative players, much less with munchkins.

I do agree with people who say that they should give the face a chance, first.

[Rubic]

On the flip side, why should they bother doing anything other than metagame if the player of the face is metagaming? By which, I mean that most of these bullshit examples I see (the face who wants to be a sniper, etc.) are not a face acting like an attractive, socially adept character, but a pushy, obnoxious asshole.

I may have used a bit of hyperbole in my previous descriptions of social skills, but I was trying to describe scenes like the would-be-sniper and other examples of faces that I have seen on these boards, and how they can, and should, breed a lot of resentment.

I'm not saying that it has to be that way, but using social skills on other PCs can be tricky enough with cooperative players, much less with munchkins.

I do agree with people who say that they should give the face a chance, first.

I'll drink to that!! ... well, I would if I could even afford a 6 pack of pabst... *sigh*

[Yerameyahu]

Nah. Intimidation is brute force; taking charge of a confusing situation is Leadership. Seduction (as a Con spec) might overlap *slightly* with fun flirting, but it's tricking via sexuality; 'consensual flirting' is just a form of play, not an opposed skill (Con) test at all.

To say that these don't cause conflict and resentment is a greater exaggeration. Social skills have significant limits, and the GM has to stay on top of them.

[Ascalaphus]

As a GM, I wouldn't take "I use my 30 dice in Con to do that" seriously.

Sure, dice pool matters. The player can say "I'm going to spin him a hard-luck story and get him to cut an innocent-looking girl some slack instead of arresting her", and if his character looks like an innocent little girl, then he's probably going to succeed.

People seem to obsess about stacking all manner of exotic dice pool modifiers (glamour and other weird metagenic traits), but the end result if that your character becomes extremely memorable. The problem with that is that after the first couple of runs, everyone knows who you are, and infiltrating with a cover story becomes nearly impossible.

I think a somewhat-handsome human with really smooth talking skills, a datajack full of KnowSofts (to "talk the talk") and a good wardrobe makes a much more effective face; a good face is a chameleon, not a fashion icon.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As a GM, I wouldn't take "I use my 30 dice in Con to do that" seriously.

Sure, dice pool matters. The player can say "I'm going to spin him a hard-luck story and get him to cut an innocent-looking girl some slack instead of arresting her", and if his character looks like an innocent little girl, then he's probably going to succeed.

People seem to obsess about stacking all manner of exotic dice pool modifiers (glamour and other weird metagenic traits), but the end result if that your character becomes extremely memorable. The problem with that is that after the first couple of runs, everyone knows who you are, and infiltrating with a cover story becomes nearly impossible.

I think a somewhat-handsome human with really smooth talking skills, a datajack full of KnowSofts (to "talk the talk") and a good wardrobe makes a much more effective face; a good face is a chameleon, not a fashion icon.

Hear, Hear... Well Said... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Blade]

You have to be careful with Tailored Pheromones: they're forbidden (so they aren't common) and all it takes to discover them is a cheap sensor. For me, people used to negociations (such as Johnsons) will check for these and refuse to start the negociation while the pheromones are activated, just like they'd refuse to negociate with a mage who's casting a mind manipulation spell on them. Either that, or they'll be wary of the pheromones' effect and the face will suffer a negative modifier that'll compensate the one the pheromones add.

Also, gear/spells/powers aren't the only thing that a good face can use. He can also use the situation or the information he has: have the target drink or take some drugs, get him to relax, know what kind of people he like so as to look that way, know what the target will be more receptive to...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You have to be careful with Tailored Pheromones: they're forbidden (so they aren't common) and all it takes to discover them is a cheap sensor. For me, people used to negociations (such as Johnsons) will check for these and refuse to start the negociation while the pheromones are activated, just like they'd refuse to negociate with a mage who's casting a mind manipulation spell on them. Either that, or they'll be wary of the pheromones' effect and the face will suffer a negative modifier that'll compensate the one the pheromones add.

Can't really turn the Pheromones off, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

Sure you can turn them off! It just takes two taps and they stop functioning!

[Ascalaphus]

Keeping an olfactory scanner on during negotiations just makes sense, for both parties. It's also a reason not to take the pheromones if you can't shut them off: some people will refuse to deal with you (face to face), just like they would with a mage known to use mind magic.

Anyway, try the face with the subtle touch: invest in skillwires and 'softs, so you can impersonate engineers or technical specialists. Take the 'ware or powers that let you quickly manipulate your appearance and biometrics. Be like the Pretender instead of making a Lady Gaga dryad with glamour.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure you can turn them off! It just takes two taps and they stop functioning!

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Tailored Pheromones are bioware. As I understand it, bioware systems are impossible to turn off. I'd say the only way tailored pheromones COULD be turned off is when the owner is calm, and in control. This would require a composure test (albeit would be fairly easy for many face characters) and another anytime the opposed person does something that might illicit emotion. But, that's a bit heavy. So, in most cases I would say it can't be turned off. And as such, someone else may need to negotiate (I hope your pornomancer isn't the only negotiator in the group. Heh heh heh...)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tailored Pheromones are bioware. As I understand it, bioware systems are impossible to turn off. I'd say the only way tailored pheromones COULD be turned off is when the owner is calm, and in control. This would require a composure test (albeit would be fairly easy for many face characters) and another anytime the opposed person does something that might illicit emotion. But, that's a bit heavy. So, in most cases I would say it can't be turned off. And as such, someone else may need to negotiate (I hope your pornomancer isn't the only negotiator in the group. Heh heh heh...)

The two taps reference to turn off the Bioware is a reference to "Double Tapping" your target with two bullets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

The two taps reference to turn off the Bioware is a reference to "Double Tapping" your target with two bullets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Whoops. Completely missed that. Odd, considering one of the PC's in one game I GM'd developed a mania for double tapping after a few targets got back up Slasher horror style...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Whoops. Completely missed that. Odd, considering one of the PC's in one game I GM'd developed a mania for double tapping after a few targets got back up Slasher horror style...

Heh... No worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)