Ok, I've got a new player who wants to make a face. What cyber does a face have that will improve their faceness? Tailored Pheromones is obvious, voice modulator seems useful, what else can He take to make him artificially personable? What stuff should he take to round himm out? Is adept a better choice? Augmented adept? How does one make a face?

Trimming down the Pornomancer to the basics
Elf for Charisma
Adept for Kinesics
First Impression
Chatty
Empathy Software

1) Good natural charisma
2) Glamor Surge Quality
3) The Fame quality
4) Kinesics Adept Power
5) improved skill adept power
6) voice control adept power
7) Tailored pheromones
8 ) Emotitoy/Empathy software
9) Knowing how to use the social modifiers table to your advantage
10) Good selection of contacts
11) Good Lifestyle

Full Pornomancer build with the wares italized:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)

3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51

Generally for a face, you'll want to be a little more general than the pornomancer. I've found that about 20 dice before social modifiers is plenty of dice. The character will want to minimize their notoriety and make the most of their street cred.

The face will want some sort of secondary skill set, since just being a one trick pony in shadowrun isn't too much fun. For example, you can talk your way into a club and use palming to slip drugs into someones drinks, or seduce a gaurd and then restrain them with escape artist so the rest of your team can sneak in.

Ok, judging from this, adept/augmented adept is pretty much the ideal for better talking and to pull in some secondary skillset as well. Palming seems like it'll fit with the player's ideal. I was mostly wondering how one makes a purely cyber/bio face, in case the player reacts adversely to magic. Not expecting another Longbowrocks, but it looks like adept or bust.

Not really, as you can see from the full pornomancer build i provided, only 6 dice out of 50 come from adept powers.

and 5 from a spell and 2 from the mentor spirit...

for a pure cyber/bio guy in addition to the already mentioned

Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer

the GM may allow +Charisma through Cosmetic Biosculpting. For the Empathy Software you need a tricked out Commlink and ideally Cybereyes for the built-in camera. Elf with Genetic Optimization and an Addiction to some Charisma pushing drugs and you're throwing more then enough dice. With room for a second proficiency.

Only on the truly maxed out version as thats the only way to max out charisma, but that spell can be casted by a team mate too.
Nad there is the alternative version speedballing all the charisma enchanting drugs, if the increase attribute spell isn't an option

For a mundane face, tailored pheromones and a vocal range enhancer are the most reliable. A face is one of those builds where you can get 30+ dice, but can get by with 12 or so most of the time. Adepts are good, because kinesics give another +3 dice and are not obvious. Empathy software is a gimme, if you allow it (I think it is overpowered dice pool inflation myself, and a lot of tables ban the stuff). Qualities such as first impression, or some cosmetic surgery, can add dice.

Some things to watch out for - glamour is nice, but makes your character dangerously memorable, and makes it hard to blend into the crowd. Enhanced pheromone receptors can give you penalties in fairly common situations (crowds, strong odors) and make you more vulnerable to tailored pheromones - the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion. Fame is a bad idea most of the time - and note that getting the bonus from it always involves revealing your real identity.

Other things a face needs - lots of languages, decent data search ability (a good commlink with some linguisofts and an agent can help a lot with this, if you are tight on points), a high perception, the ability to disguise yourself, and an extensive network of contacts. I did a version of a more traditional face here. It was intended as a sample character, so not very min-maxed, although it would be easy to tweak it to add things like tailored pheromones and empathy software to it.

Side notes: Personally, I prefer a face with some agility and intuition. The stealth group, perception, and ability to shoot their weapon of choice nicely rounds out a face. If you have to sneak AND con your way in, it helps to have a face who can infiltrate, disguise, palm, pay attention, and then shoot their way out of Plan B.

But that's just personal preference.

I too like a combat face more then a pure face.

A good face will want some sort of combat utility. It sucks to be able to do nothing when the bullets start to fly. Luckily, pretty much any build can benefit from having some social skills.

I like the quick-change artist face. Bullets start flying in a gang war and suddenly you look like one of those gang members.

You might also consider a more mundane face: Instead of spending a ton of BP on adept powers, get the necessary basics (elf charisma, ware), and spend those points on being an Edgemonkey instead.

While having 25 dice is great, having 16-20 and 5-7 uses of exploding dice and rerolls can be just as good, and perhaps a bit more versatile.

Check with your GM bofore taking an emotitoy/software. From what I can gather many consider them a somewhat broken rule and houserule against them.

I would really like to sit this game with a Elf (Dryad) Adept Face. In Spy Games there a LOT more Social Adept Powers, or so I have heard. One especially Master Kinesics? Plus other facial sculpt powers.

But all in all it would be HILARIOUS to have another AWAKENED charater that would drive Longbow nuts. LOL He already hates mages for the ability to zap him across the planet, so why not a Pornomancer/Face Adept that can tell him what to do and he has to do it, and hhis character is convinced that he loves it. Howling good time.

Sorry Longbow I love your ingenious rants against the Awakened, it always makes me smile...

Well, the player ended up going sure adept once he discovered Commanding Voice = Jedi. Speaker's Way 4 life. It's been a good addition to the party having a smooth operator to talk them out of some of the trouble they get in. Honestly, I can't wait to see the look on Longbow's face when Frosty shows up in DOTA. KABOOM! "THIS IS WHY I HATE MAGES!" He was happy that they got to kill a toxic shaman and capture an adept, though.

LOL
I have an Femal Elven cat shaman/mystic adept for Longbow to meet. He would love her until she melts his face off....and not with her mage powers Rowr!!

Just remember that party members won't take kindly to you repeatedly using social skills (or any other skill) on them unwillingly.

Not "a lot more," but a few, yes.

Using negotiation means you are like a used car salesman, and your mark will likely have "buyer's remorse" afterwards. Using con means literally that, conning someone, and there is a reason that con artists hit the ground running after they have fleeced their mark. Seduction means, well, you're basically a dirty whore. Intimidation means you have frightened and coerced someone into doing something you want, and people who experience those emotions tend to feel massive resentment towards the person doing it to them.

A face using these skills to manipulate teammates is a complete idiot - that's like slapping someone's face and then turning your back on them. The victims would be well within the bounds of roleplaying if they shot the offending character at first opportunity. Indeed, the face would be the one roleplaying poorly, since a decent face would use their ability to manipulate others sparingly, knowing that they can breed resentment over the long term.

But social skill use in PVP situations is a minefield, because the rules are so subjective, and fail in so many places. They are good as a quick, simple way to resolve easily quantifiable situations, but they break down when you try to get too complicated with them. Their biggest problem is that most of the listed modifiers assume normal usage of these skills, so efforts to represent what should be exponentially more difficult situations can fail in the face of the humongous dice pools that faces can have.

By the way, commanding voice is not a Jedi mind trick - that would be the influence spell. Commanding voice is more like the Bene Gesserit voice, an immediate compulsion that doesn't alter the target's mind beyond compelling the initial obedience.

A minor nitpick, but I don't see Negotiation being like a used car salesman. It COULD be, if the player / NPC plays it that way. But Negotiation could also be haggling, etc. Heck, one of the specs for it is Diplomacy. Not everyone walks away from a deal feeling like they got screwed. If it was a skillful-enough Negotiation, the "other party" will likely feel like they got a good bargain.

I'll see your nerd ante and raise you Wesley's "Drop Your Sword!"

No. It doesn't. Negotiation is how you give the person you're doing business with the same knowledge that you have so that they understand why you charge what you charge, what they're getting for the money, and what they can get elsewhere for what they're willing to pay.

I use negotiation in real life EVERY time I work with a client, be it a repeat client or a new client and my goal is to have repeat clients that I want to do business with and that means not ripping someone off, not being ripped off, and having a good working relationship throughout the contract and after.

It also means acting like your Fake Sin, behaving in a manner designed to draw attention or in a manner designed to NOT draw attention. It can be used to convince a drunk to not get in a fight or to not get in their car. It's the skill of an actor, a comedian, a professional wrestler.

I hate to break it to you but there are a large number of people who like to flirt with each other. They know they're flirting. They know the other people are flirting. They are enjoying the game, knowing it's a game, and they are NOT "dirty whores" for doing so. When I spend the evening seducing my wife, I am not a "dirty whore" (unless she really wants me to be). When someone is the model in a photo shoot, they are not a "dirty whore", even if they appear seductive. You may have a problem with seduction, but, and trust me on this one, it's YOUR problem.

It also happens during games of Roller Derby (and there's no resentment at the drinking party afterwards). It's a turn on for a number of people I know. It's a solid display of confidence and knowing one's place in the world. When a bunch of people have a problem they can't solve and someone walks in and takes charge, that's a moment of relief from everyone, but the skill that should be rolled is intimidation. Having a presence is as reassuring as it is scary. It all depends on what side you're on.

Social skills are not necessarily negative interactions. They're the foundation of positive social interactions.

Just because it's considered rude to use your social skills on your own team does NOT give them the right to openly and blatantly ignore the fact that your character is attractive (socially at least), persuasive, and generally the kind of person they want to be around. If your team is metagaming and ignoring such things, I say turn about is fair play when you force them to roll in order to NOT treat your character well.

Let's also remember that Seduction is not a skill; it is specialization of Con.

Reminds me of the face that wanted to be a sniper for a mission. The discussion went from IC to OCC.
Sniper: Why be sniper? I have 15 dice for it. Do you even have a gun skill?
Face: No, but I have 28 dice in Negotiation. Hand over the rifle.

Heh...

I could see the sniper letting the face take a shot. Once. Then take the gun back in disgust

My opinion on all of the Sensor software is that when used by a player to augment their own personal ability it should work as if they are doing team work.
Roll the dice add any successes to your own dice pool. I really don't like it just adding dice right on top.

There is a decided difference between treating somebody well and capitulating to their every whim. The sniper could rightly have demanded proof of the face's ability before allowing him to waste one of the sniping bullets. High charisma & social, though, would more or less indicate that the sniper would likely give him the opportunity to prove himself, and not be too doubtful in the mean time. It's the difference between Assertive and Passive-Aggressive. Assertive is confident, unafraid of confrontation though not necessarily seeking argument; Passive-Aggressive avoids confrontation while seeking argument (in so many words). Also, something to remind the face, he doesn't always get his full 28 dice; there's negatives for stepping on the specialist's toes (in th is case, the sniper, who has clearly demonstrated/been hired for his ability), therby insulting the specialist (another negative), potentially placing the operation at risk (racking up the negatives here), potentially ruining the sniper's reputation if he fails (cut out some more), and so on, and so on... Sure, he may have a decent amount of dice remaining after all the negatives are taken out for situational modifiers, but then there's still the threshhold to pass (I'd say willpower + 2 or something like that). A face who abuses his ability will rack up notoriety/negative reputation. Caveat emptor, after all.

Still, this does NOT disqualify my statement above about players mistreating their face DESPITE stats and situations that indicate quite the opposite. Mistreat the face who has proven themselves to be unreliable/detrimental, not the one who's yet to be proven so.

In addition to the above.

Face rule #273: You can't draw blood from a stone.

The Johnson is working off a flat fee. The client has 15,000 for the team to get the job done. The Johnson knows this is not enough, has informed the client it's not enough, but is presenting you with the contract anyway because he's getting paid to and you gotta pay rent. He's offering the full 15,000 because he figures he can at least explain the offer with no serious damage to his reputation. Heck, you might even take it. Offering you 12,000 with the intent of pocketing the 3,000 wouldn't do any good if he knows you wouldn't take the 12,000 anyway and you finding out the real offer just sinks his rep. At least this way he gets the flat fee and a reputation for being honest, at least once.

So, no matter how many dice the face rolls. You ain't getting paid more. From a certain standpoint, if you do roll those dice, and the client is at the meet, the client (believing everything the face tells him) starts walking away from the table. The face inadvertently convinces the client he can't afford it.

Face rule #347: The sky isn't green.


I don't care how many dice you roll. You may even convince me that you are a noble prize winning historian who is an expert on feudal Japan. I might buy that, but I'm not buying this for an instant. Mythbusters could do a 3 hour special proving it and I'm still not buying it anymore than you're buying the suggestion that somewhere there's a list of face rules that goes up to 347.

While true we have seen print missions that have just that scenario mapped out. Granted the mission is a little odd, the Johnson comes to the table with some cash that is a decent amount. But if the rolls are right you walk away with his van too, if I remember correctly. Not saying it will always go down that way, or even most of the time. But if something can be done once it can be done again. Over in another thread where movies were being discussed Ronin came up a lot. Whether or not it is a SR movie is not really focus here, but more the negotiation style of the lead character.

Three things I'll never understand.
1) Why they agreed to pay Sam and the team in Ronin 100K in advance.
2) Why Sam asked for the money in the first place. That makes NO sense by the time the movie is over.
3) Negotiation scenes in Missions.

"You want us to kidnap someone from a AAA cocktail party with no advance notice, no recon, and we're getting paid how much money? What is this, amateur night?"

1) Rep goes a long way.
2) His 401K sucks
3) Agreed. Heh

On the flip side, why should they bother doing anything other than metagame if the player of the face is metagaming? By which, I mean that most of these bullshit examples I see (the face who wants to be a sniper, etc.) are not a face acting like an attractive, socially adept character, but a pushy, obnoxious asshole.

I may have used a bit of hyperbole in my previous descriptions of social skills, but I was trying to describe scenes like the would-be-sniper and other examples of faces that I have seen on these boards, and how they can, and should, breed a lot of resentment.

I'm not saying that it has to be that way, but using social skills on other PCs can be tricky enough with cooperative players, much less with munchkins.

I do agree with people who say that they should give the face a chance, first.

I'll drink to that!! ... well, I would if I could even afford a 6 pack of pabst... *sigh*

Nah. Intimidation is brute force; taking charge of a confusing situation is Leadership. Seduction (as a Con spec) might overlap *slightly* with fun flirting, but it's tricking via sexuality; 'consensual flirting' is just a form of play, not an opposed skill (Con) test at all.

To say that these don't cause conflict and resentment is a greater exaggeration. Social skills have significant limits, and the GM has to stay on top of them.

As a GM, I wouldn't take "I use my 30 dice in Con to do that" seriously.

Sure, dice pool matters. The player can say "I'm going to spin him a hard-luck story and get him to cut an innocent-looking girl some slack instead of arresting her", and if his character looks like an innocent little girl, then he's probably going to succeed.

People seem to obsess about stacking all manner of exotic dice pool modifiers (glamour and other weird metagenic traits), but the end result if that your character becomes extremely memorable. The problem with that is that after the first couple of runs, everyone knows who you are, and infiltrating with a cover story becomes nearly impossible.

I think a somewhat-handsome human with really smooth talking skills, a datajack full of KnowSofts (to "talk the talk") and a good wardrobe makes a much more effective face; a good face is a chameleon, not a fashion icon.

Hear, Hear... Well Said...

You have to be careful with Tailored Pheromones: they're forbidden (so they aren't common) and all it takes to discover them is a cheap sensor. For me, people used to negociations (such as Johnsons) will check for these and refuse to start the negociation while the pheromones are activated, just like they'd refuse to negociate with a mage who's casting a mind manipulation spell on them. Either that, or they'll be wary of the pheromones' effect and the face will suffer a negative modifier that'll compensate the one the pheromones add.

Also, gear/spells/powers aren't the only thing that a good face can use. He can also use the situation or the information he has: have the target drink or take some drugs, get him to relax, know what kind of people he like so as to look that way, know what the target will be more receptive to...

Can't really turn the Pheromones off, though...

Sure you can turn them off! It just takes two taps and they stop functioning!

Keeping an olfactory scanner on during negotiations just makes sense, for both parties. It's also a reason not to take the pheromones if you can't shut them off: some people will refuse to deal with you (face to face), just like they would with a mage known to use mind magic.

Anyway, try the face with the subtle touch: invest in skillwires and 'softs, so you can impersonate engineers or technical specialists. Take the 'ware or powers that let you quickly manipulate your appearance and biometrics. Be like the Pretender instead of making a Lady Gaga dryad with glamour.

Heh...

Tailored Pheromones are bioware. As I understand it, bioware systems are impossible to turn off. I'd say the only way tailored pheromones COULD be turned off is when the owner is calm, and in control. This would require a composure test (albeit would be fairly easy for many face characters) and another anytime the opposed person does something that might illicit emotion. But, that's a bit heavy. So, in most cases I would say it can't be turned off. And as such, someone else may need to negotiate (I hope your pornomancer isn't the only negotiator in the group. Heh heh heh...)

The two taps reference to turn off the Bioware is a reference to "Double Tapping" your target with two bullets.

Whoops. Completely missed that. Odd, considering one of the PC's in one game I GM'd developed a mania for double tapping after a few targets got back up Slasher horror style...

Heh... No worries...