Missile Mastery "anything" range? Options

[Shortstraw]

Yeah but the rule in arsenal is general to unco thrown stuff not the specific ones listed in arsenal.

[wilcoxon]

Since Missile Mastery applies to category of weapons (it must otherwise the bonus could not be applied en masse without defining each and every weapon that it applies to) you cannot apply it to the PROJECTILE AND THROWING WEAPONS category since the power includes no exclusions requiring it to be applied equally to bows and other projectile weapons.

The power lists two types of weapons Thrown Weapons and Improvised Thrown Weapons. These phrases still refer to the original categories of Throwing Weapons and Improvised Throwing Weapons. The only difference of the two is the state of the weapon in whether it has been thrown or not. This is actually a necessity since the power should only be applied to weapons that have been thrown and not ones that are readied. I can still stab you with a throwing knife but it will only deal (STR/2+1)P and not (STR/2+2)P as per the power since the weapon has not yet been thrown.

No, it doesn't. Missile Mastery refers to "throwing weapons" and "improvised throwing weapons" and not "Throwing Weapons" and "Improvised Throwing Weapons" (note the lack of capitals). The rule of thumb in Shadowrun books seems to be that any specific category is capitalized so Missile Mastery is simply using descriptors (which happened to match the Throwing Weapons category in the SR4 core book because there were only two). All three examples of "improvised throwing weapons" under Missile Mastery are non-weapons (things it would be impossible to list on the Improvised Throwing Weapons table because they deal 0 damage without Missile Mastery). Also, the "Improvised Throwing Weapons" category didn't even exist when Street Magic was written (it was added later in Arsenal).

That logic only applies if the rules do not apply to a category of weapons, which it is fairly clear the the rules are dealing with established categories of weapons.

Again, no, it is not clear. See reasoning above (the "categories" are not capitalized and the examples of "improvised weapons" under Missile Mastery are non-weapons (not things that can normally be improvised) and the improvised categories didn't even exist at that time).

[wilcoxon]

You greatly misunderstand the purpose of applying changes chronologically. Chronological application lets you understand the intent of a rule at the time it was written. Once you understand the intent, then you can throw more splat on it in order to properly interpret how that splat is supposed to work with the rule. No matter what, in any system where rules (or laws) are added incrementally there are invariable situations that arise where rules (or laws) do not jive properly. Rarely are people ever paid to go through and read every single rule (or law) that is written and see how the new rule (or law) works with what has come before. In the case of law it is often left to judges to interpret these laws using intent as well as interpret what happens when laws do not play nice together.

This is supposed to be one of the thing a line editor (or project head) does - review rules to make sure they work together. At least it's one of the things I was paid to do (not for Shadowrun)...

[Shortstraw]

This is supposed to be one of the thing a line editor (or project head) does - review rules to make sure they work together. At least it's one of the things I was paid to do (not for Shadowrun)...

That's the problem with RPG's - tons of unicorns no line editors (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

No, it doesn't. Missile Mastery refers to "throwing weapons" and "improvised throwing weapons" and not "Throwing Weapons" and "Improvised Throwing Weapons" (note the lack of capitals). The rule of thumb

I stopped caring about your point after you used Rule of Thumb as the foundation for the rest of the paragraph. The Rule of Thumb is heuristic and not exhaustive. As a rule is more and more contested, the Rule of Thumb must be discarded.

[wilcoxon]

I stopped caring about your point after you used Rule of Thumb as the foundation for the rest of the paragraph. The Rule of Thumb is heuristic and not exhaustive. As a rule is more and more contested, the Rule of Thumb must be discarded.

It is fairly consistent but not entirely (hence the rule-of-thumb comment) - yet another thing that an editor is supposed to do (too bad Shadowrun has a history of relatively poor editing).

What about the other 2/3 of my reasoning (Improvised Throwing Weapons didn't even exist as a category when SM was written and all examples under MM being non-weapons (rather than improvised weapons))? You've only discarded 1 of the 3 reasons I gave supporting my position.

Okay. If you don't like my argument, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Missile Mastery is referring to weapon categories (and not just describing in English what the rule applies to)?

Both you and TJ seem to get hung up on the use of "improvised" in the description of Missile Mastery when it is pretty clearly used to mean something different than "improvised" does in Arsenal. The examples make it pretty clear it means non-weapon (rather than something used as a weapon not designed as a weapon) and, if you don't like argument based on example, the category of Improvised Throwing Weapons didn't even exist when SM was published.

[StealthSigma]

It is fairly consistent but not entirely (hence the rule-of-thumb comment) - yet another thing that an editor is supposed to do (too bad Shadowrun has a history of relatively poor editing).

What about the other 2/3 of my reasoning (Improvised Throwing Weapons didn't even exist as a category when SM was written and all examples under MM being non-weapons (rather than improvised weapons))? You've only discarded 1 of the 3 reasons I gave supporting my position.

Okay. If you don't like my argument, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Missile Mastery is referring to weapon categories (and not just describing in English what the rule applies to)?

Both you and TJ seem to get hung up on the use of "improvised" in the description of Missile Mastery when it is pretty clearly used to mean something different than "improvised" does in Arsenal. The examples make it pretty clear it means non-weapon (rather than something used as a weapon not designed as a weapon) and, if you don't like argument based on example, the category of Improvised Throwing Weapons didn't even exist when SM was published.

The concept of improvised weapons was initially created with the BBB though it applied only to melee weapons. Street Magic created the improvised throwing weapon category distinct from throwing weapons with the Missile Mastery power so it doesn't particularly matter if the category did not exist prior to it.

The usage of the word improvised is very clearly an important point. The very definition of an improvised weapon is that which is not designed to be a weapon being used in that fashion. Baseball bats, sledgehammers, pens, and various other common items are used as improvised weapons. The problem with the examples in the power is that of the three listed, only one is truly harmless and that is playing cards. Pens are rigid enough to be dangerous and glasses, they're most likely referring to the kind you drink out of and not the kind you wear since those are far more likely to be found "laying around", can be dangerous due to the fragments that would result from them shattering on impact.

[forgarn]

I am gathering from the posts that the Arsenal book came out after the Street Magic book did. Is there anywhere in Arsenal that is says that the arsenal rules supersede the books that came before it?

In addition, as I noted previously, the Improvised Weapons section in Arsenal does state that the list is only a sample. I am assuming (and I know that this is dangerous) that the list in Arsenal was in response to both the MM listing as well as the fact that some things should have a DV (like a baseball/cueball that is thrown).

If you read the entire sentence in SM (pg. 178) it says

Such is the character’s knack for throwing weapons that he adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-explosive thrown weapon he uses.

The highlighted portion of this can be read two ways. This can be read to mean the category/class of throwing weapons (i.e. weapons designed to be thrown), or it can be read to mean that throwing is a verb. The way you read it is where the problem comes in. If you read it the first way, then only the items listed in the tables (and there are actually two tables, one in SR4a and one in Arsenal) get the +1 DV added to them. If you read it the second way, then any object that is thrown by the adept gets the +1 DV. It is all in where you put the emphasis (throwing weapons, or throwing weapons).

After re-reading it numerous times, I get me context clues from the first sentence:

Even the most harmless of items such as pens, coins, and playing cards become deadly weapons in the hands of an adept with Missile Mastery.

That to me says that the Missile Mastery adept is a master at throwing things and they all do damage. So I would read the second sentence with the second reading above and say that all items thrown get the +1 DV and (since SM came out before the defined damage listing in Arsenal) that items not listed with a damage code get (STR/2)P.

Also, something else to note; someone brought up the category verses description. In SM it states that

Improvised thrown weapons (such as playing cards, glasses or pens) have a Damage Value of (STR ÷ 2)P (round up) in the adept’s hands

Please note the highlighted portion. That is not a category whether it is capitalized or not. The category name in Arsenal is

IMPROVISED THROWING WEAPONS

This could possibly be chalked up to the inconsistencies between books, but is just another point to be brought up.

[wilcoxon]

The concept of improvised weapons was initially created with the BBB though it applied only to melee weapons. Street Magic created the improvised throwing weapon category distinct from throwing weapons with the Missile Mastery power so it doesn't particularly matter if the category did not exist prior to it.

The usage of the word improvised is very clearly an important point. The very definition of an improvised weapon is that which is not designed to be a weapon being used in that fashion. Baseball bats, sledgehammers, pens, and various other common items are used as improvised weapons. The problem with the examples in the power is that of the three listed, only one is truly harmless and that is playing cards. Pens are rigid enough to be dangerous and glasses, they're most likely referring to the kind you drink out of and not the kind you wear since those are far more likely to be found "laying around", can be dangerous due to the fragments that would result from them shattering on impact.

No. Street Magic did not create the category of improvised throwing weapons. It used the word "improvised" in relation to one power (Missile Mastery).

Are you seriously saying that a pen can be a dangerous *thrown* weapon? I would grant you that some pens can make dangerous thrusting weapons but not throwing (at least not without a *ton* of practice with a specific pen).

You are the first person to point out that it does say "glasses" and not "eye glasses" (which is how I remembered it for some reason). A drinking glass could make a decent throwing weapon (provided it is one of the heavier ones).

So, are you saying that martial arts and other things that give a bonus to melee weapons do *not* give a bonus to baseball bats, sai, nunchaku, bo staff, sickle, scythe, machete, etc? All of those are improvised weapons by a strict definition (none were designed to be weapons). If the various things that give bonuses to melee weapons give a bonus to Improvised Melee Weapons then why would you argue that Missile Mastery does not do the same for throwing weapons? And, if you say that they don't give a bonus to those weapons, then I'll just stop replying and completely ignore this thread (unless somebody says something new about the original range question).

[StealthSigma]

So, are you saying that martial arts and other things that give a bonus to melee weapons do *not* give a bonus to baseball bats, sai, nunchaku, bo staff, sickle, scythe, machete, etc? All of those are improvised weapons by a strict definition (none were designed to be weapons). If the various things that give bonuses to melee weapons give a bonus to Improvised Melee Weapons then why would you argue that Missile Mastery does not do the same for throwing weapons? And, if you say that they don't give a bonus to those weapons, then I'll just stop replying and completely ignore this thread (unless somebody says something new about the original range question).

I would say it would get the bonus because of how weapon groupings are structured and organized. Improvised Melee Weapons is a subcategory of Melee Weapons, which also includes Blades, Clubs, and other subcategories such as Exotic Weapons.

Throwing weapons is a subcategory of Projectile and Throwing Weapons along with Projectile Weapons and Improvised Throwing Weapons.

Bonuses should apply downward but not horizontally based on hierarchy. That's why the bonus to Throwing Weapons does not apply to Improvised Throwing Weapons. They have equal precedence as far as categorization goes. That's why the bonus to melee weapons does apply to improvised. Melee Weapons is the all encompassing category that includes all those various subcats.

[X-Kalibur]

I think it's reached the point where this is required.

[forgarn]

I would say it would get the bonus because of how weapon groupings are structured and organized. Improvised Melee Weapons is a subcategory of Melee Weapons, which also includes Blades, Clubs, and other subcategories such as Exotic Weapons.

Throwing weapons is a subcategory of Projectile and Throwing Weapons along with Projectile Weapons and Improvised Throwing Weapons.

Bonuses should apply downward but not horizontally based on hierarchy. That's why the bonus to Throwing Weapons does not apply to Improvised Throwing Weapons. They have equal precedence as far as categorization goes. That's why the bonus to melee weapons does apply to improvised. Melee Weapons is the all encompassing category that includes all those various subcats.

That makes no sense to me. Improvised Throwing Weapons are Throwing Weapons that were not meant to be thrown, therefore a subset of Throwing Weapons just like Improvised Melee Weapons is a subset of Melee Weapons (they are melee weapons that were not meant to be used that way). You cannot say one is and the other is not, they either both are or not.

I think it's reached the point where this is required.

Agreed

[X-Kalibur]

Could we perhaps all agree that the +1DV applies to aerodynamic throwing weapons, improvised or otherwise? I'd say it sounds a fair trade, all things considered.