Missile Mastery gives the improvised thrown weapons a damage value but no specified range. Arsenal also does not list anything like playing cards, glasses, or pens (not a surprise since they'd only do damage with Missile Mastery).

Any thoughts on what the range should be? Currently I'm thinking 1/2/3/5x (though I could see 1/2/3/4x).

If there's an entry for thrown weapons on the range chart, I'd suggest just using that.

Edit- In fact, there is, "Impact Projectiles" on page 151 SR4A. No reason not to just use those for KISS.

Yes, but which one? Arsenal includes a lot more (including a slew of "improvised thrown weapons") with highly variable ranges. Throwing knife is 1/2/3/5x and improvised throwing knife is 1/2/3/4x while baseball is 2/4/6/10x and bowling ball is only 0.5/1/1.5/2x.

Closest match or general catch all.
This is a question for your GM.

If the weapon you're improvising changes depending on the moment and what is within reach, so should the ranges of the object.

Sigh. It would have been nice if they officially addressed such a major rules question around the power (but they didn't in the book or in the errata).

They did not, becuase the variability in things that you can throw is astounding, from a toothpick to a Person (or even bigger).

Generally we use 1x, 2x ,3x, 5x for most improvised things with a weight of a Throwing Knife or less. If the thing thrown has a range listed already (as in the Improvised Chart), then we use that range category.

Improvised Throwing Weapon(Metahuman Body) deals (Body)Stun Damage. Both Weapon and Target take Damage on the others Body. Both can apply their Impact-Armor to lessen said damage.

This actually brings up a tangential question that has been bugging me for a while. How does one determine damage for being jumped on?

One does not.
One could use the ramming martial arts technique? Or bull-rush or however that's called?
Or do you mean DFA like? Then Falling-Damage probably.

I ask because my parkour adept has both great leap and freefall at 6, and I wasn't sure if jumping onto opponents would be a viable attack option. I mean, it'd be a fairly large height, and if I were wearing Goblin Stompers or the like, it would be interesting.

Ask the Dumpshocker Medicineman.
He Built himself one of these and one for me too i think.
He should be able to answer these kind of questions for you a bit better than me i guess.

If the thing is listed on the Improvised Chart then it is a weapon (and you'll get the +1 DV). The "anything" portion of Missile Mastery is specifically about throwing non-weapons. The power grants a magic ability to turn almost anything into a weapon so, to me, they should have provided ranges (either as simple as "everything goes x/y/z/a x Str" or breaking it up by general weight (and possibly aerodynamic properties)). As it stands, there's likely absolutely no consistency between GMs.

There is likely no consistency, because eveyrone has different ideas on the viability of what you can throw. *shrug* Most of the people I have seen use what I do. 1x, 2x, 3x, 5x. It is pretty simple and straight forward.

And no, if it is on the Improvised Chart, you would not get a +1 DV becuase THEY ARE NOT WEAPONS. they are IMPROVISED.

My old cyber lizard intimidation climber... thing... used to make leaping attacks. My then-GM allowed me to roll to jump across a room and onto an opponent. If successful, I could then roll to attack as normal. I don't recall if he treated it as an interrupt action or not, or if I got any bonus for net hits above the distance I was jumping.

It really kind of comes down to GM fiat.

~Umi

Exactly. The authors should have provided range rules so that there is a consistent basis for ranges using Missile Mastery.

Umm. Yes, you would. Missile Mastery says "adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-explosive thrown weapon he uses". It gives an explicit exclusion so anything not covered by the exclusion is included (it does not say "non-improvised non-explosive"). Also, the table is explicitly labeled as improvised WEAPONS. Missile Mastery allows throwing non-weapons (without the bonus DV).

Now then, let us get to Grenades used as improvised(maybe not even improvised) throwing Weapons to get dead on Hits and Ground 0 Explosion damage. Again.

Sigh.

One of these days they will run a missions game near me.

And I will know about it.

And I will do that.

Heh. If that worked, then so would firearms that hit people with grenades, which then exploded.

Really, SO my 16p Nail gains a +1 DV? It is an improvised weapon after all...
ANd My Playing Card gets a +1 DV? After all, Improvised Weapon...

Please show me how a Normal Bottle has a DV value when it is not used as an Improvised Weapon. Or a Metahuman Body, or a Bowling Ball. These are ALL NON_WEAPONS

You are wrong on this one.

Both of your examples would *not* get +1 DV. Improvised thrown weapons are what is listed in Arsenal or SR4a (or what you can convince your GM is one) and get a +1 DV. Non-weapons require Missile Mastery to be thrown as weapons and explicitly do not get the +1 DV (they simply get a damage of Str/2).

A bottle or a bowling ball (or a body if the thrower is strong enough) can certainly be thrown by anyone (and fairly well) and cause damage.

Would it have been clearer to you if they said "+1 DV to throw any non-explosive that someone else can throw for damage"? That's pretty clearly (at least to me) the intent (and RAW).

It is quite clear enough. Any NON WEAPON gains damage DV equal to Str/2. Bowling balls are NOT WEAPONS, even if they do have a chart for them called Improvised Weapons. Though they do have their own damage codes, becuase anyone can throw them. Just because they can be thrown, however, does not mean that they get a +1 DV to damage, becuase they are not weapons in their own right.

Here it is in its entirety...



Improvised Weapons ARE NOT WEAPONS, so any entry on the Improvised Chart IS NOT A WEAPON BY DEFAULT, and is therefore Improvised. Thus the Name of the Chart.

Of course my examples of Cards or Nails would not get the DV. I said as much. Neither would a Metahuman Body, a Bottle or a Bowling Ball. You were the one arguing that they should. Go back and read your post, because that is what you were saying (POST #15, if you don't remember). Only NORMAL THROWING WEAPONS would gain the +1 DV to Damage.

And a sword isn't a weapon either, it's just a fancy letter opener that you "improvise" into dealing damage, right?

This is absurd. An improvised weapon is still a weapon. It's just not INTENDED to be a weapon. That doesn't mean it isn't one, however. Is an Improvised Explosive Device somehow not an explosive device? Would a hypothetical bonus to rigging explosives not apply to an improvised explosive?

Missile Mastery gives you increased damage when you hit someone with an object propelled by the force of your arm. It obviously doesn't increase the damage value of explosives because that is a quality intrinsic to the detonating explosive, not to how hard you bean someone in the head with the explosive.

Missile Mastery quite clearly operates just like any other Weapon Skill DV bonus - id est, it applies to attacks which utilize the Thrown weapon skill (with the notable exception of grenades). This is no different than martial artists geting a DV bonus for weapons that use the Blades, the Blunt, or the Unarmed weapon skills. This is no different than an adept getting bonus damage on their Unarmed with Critical Strike.

If I have an Improvised Unarmed weapon, it still gets any DV bonus to Unarmed that may apply. It doesn't matter if that improvised weapon is a set of car-keys protuding from between the knuckles, or a rag coated on one side with glue and broken glass worn wrapped around the knuckles, or even if it's a goddamn newspaper folded over into "brass-knuckles" akin to a Millwall Brick.

If I'm an Arnisador using a lead pipe instead of a rattan stick, I should get my Blunt weapons DV bonus. Or if instead I have the bonus to Blades for knife training, I should still get that as well if I'm using a shiv, or if I'm using the broken off head of a spear, or whatever. So long as it's not too radically different from the applicable "intended" weapon, it should apply.

~Umi

I know exactly what I was saying. I never said playing cards or nails should get a bonus (but you claimed in your earlier post that I did). I did (and do) claim that the improvised weapons listed in Arsenal (or elsewhere) would get the +1 DV.

The use of the word Improvised in Street Magic is defined as things like playing cards, glasses, and pens (all clearly not weapons in the hands of someone without Missile mastery). The use of Improvised in Arsenal describes things that can be thrown as weapons by *anyone* to do damage. Poor word choice in Street Magic. You seem to be stuck on the two uses of the word improvised to mean very different things.

By your logic, an adept with Missile Mastery would do *LESS* damage than a normal person because all improvised weapons would only do Str/2 (rather than the often higher damage listed on the chart in Arsenal).

Nowhere does Missile Mastery say "normal" thrown weapons or "Thrown Weapons" (as in the category) - it says "any non-explosive thrown weapon".

Missile Mastery does 3 separate things (in this order):
1) Makes *all* non-explosive thrown weapons deal +1 DV.
2) Allows the adept to throw just about any non-weapon to do Str/2 damage.
3) Allows the adept the option to do physical damage if the weapon would normally do stun.

I'm done. I can see this argument heading in circles...

Why should Impovised Weapons get the bonus DV? THEY ARE IMPROVISED... THEY ARE NOT WEAPONS. And the DV boost only applies to Weapons. That is what a non-explosive thrown WEAPON is. The definition of Improvised does not chance from book to book.
Using your definition, anything Improvised is a Weapon, as such, a Nail is a Non-Explosive Thrown Weapon, as is an Icicle, or a Snowball, or basketball. Your logic is flawed...

Items on the improvised Chart would not (and should not) receive the damage, because they have already been provided with a Damage Code. That does not make them a WEAPON.

TJ, if having a listed damage code doesn't make something a weapon, what exactly would you say does?

~Umi

You are still putting words in my mouth and you are still stuck on the word improvised (which *is* used to mean two very different things in Street Magic and Arsensal). I'm going to (once again) straighten you out about what I'm saying...

Just to help, I've avoided using the word improvised anywhere...

Missile Mastery does 3 things:
1) Anything non-explosive that a normal person can throw to do damage gets a +1 DV from Missile Mastery.
2) Anything not covered by #1 (that is not explosive) is a non-weapon without Missile Mastery and will do Str/2 damage (no bonus) when thrown.
3) Anything thrown that does stun damage normally, can optionally do physical damage.

The above is clearly (to me) what was intended and is clearly (not just to me) what is written.

Your logic has holes you could drive a semi through. As I said (and you side-stepped), by your logic, *all* improvised thrown weapons will do Str/2 damage under Missile Mastery (even where given a damage code in Arsenal) since you claim Improvised is used to mean the same thing in different books. Please clarify.

I did not sidestep anything. SOME improvised weapons have a damage code. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM WEAPONS for the purposes of the Missile Mastery Ability. Your assumptions that they are are what causes the logic issue. It is not Intended to allow Improvised Weapons (Clearly not a Weapon) to receive the +1 DV for being a weapon. Anything not listed, with Missile Mastery, has a default damage code of Str/2. That is clearly what is intended.

Here is your logical disconnect for #1. By your logic, since I can throw a Snowball, it is a Weapon and should receive the DV increase. I can Throw a Baseball, and it TOO should recieve the DV increase. Etc, Etc. That is patently wrong. Neither are weapons, so they should not receive it by the wording of Missile Mastery, because NEITHER ARE ACTUAL WEAPONS. The fact that the baseball is already statted with a DV notwithstanding.

ALL NON-Weapons fall under Clause 2. With the express DV exclusions of the items on the Improvised Chart. Becsause they alreayd have a DV. They only get that DV because they have been IMPROVISED into a Throwing device that can now cause damage. They are not weapons in and of themselves. There is no hole in that logic.

Improvised is jut that... taking a NON WEAPON and making it into an Improvised Weapon. Which Missile Mastery extends to things not on the Chart already published. The fact they are on the chart does not change the fact that they are not weapons inherently.

TJ, again, you're being absurd. An Improvised WEAPON is still a WEAPON.

If I equip myself with a homemade flamethrower cobbled together from junk, I'm not somehow unarmed because the junk was never intended to serve as the weapon I have turned it into. If I commit a crime with it, I am treated the same as if I had used a purpose-built weapon. If I take a Semi-Automatic pistol and modify it to fire in Full Auto, it isn't still a Semi-Auto just because that was how it was built and how it was intended to function. This is how the law works, this is how the English language works.

But let's throw aside real world logic, let's go straight to RAW.

The Improvised Melee Weapons subsection and table appears in the middle of the Weapons chapter of Arsenal. Specifically, it appears as a subsection at the end of the Melee Weapons section, just before the Projectile and Throwing Weapons section. The Improvised Throwing Weapons subsection likewise appears in the Weapons chapter of Arsenal, and similarly is found as a subsection at the end of the Projectile and Throwing Weapons section.

They are refered to as WEAPONS in these sections. They are given damage codes, which only WEAPONS have. They are given range values, reach values, and armor penetration values, which only WEAPONS have. They each have a listed WEAPON skill that is required to use them.

Everything about the rules is treating these Improvised WEAPONS as WEAPONS. Absolutely nothing anywhere in the rules suggests they are to be treated as non-weapons. I can cite more than a dozen instances supporting my claims. I defy you to find a single line in the rules that works to suggest that Improvised Weapons do not count as Weapons.

~Umi

We weaponize bacteria....

So much for staying out of it...

Since when are Improvised Weapons "clearly not a weapon"? You seem to be the only one in this thread saying that the improvised weapons listed in Arsenal are not weapons (everyone else who has commented (me and 1-2 others) says they are).

That is *NOT* "clearly what is intended". What I have stated is clearly what is intended (to me and seemingly at least one other) and what you state is (apparently) clearly what is intended to you (and none others in this thread).

You are *STILL* not reading what I am actually saying. A snowball does not do damage (eg <1DV) when thrown by a normal person so it does *NOT* get any DV bonus (it's a non-weapon without Missile Mastery). A baseball *should* get the DV increase because it is a weapon (it is just not purpose designed as a weapon).

Let me try a different tack...

By your logic, a baseball bat is also not a weapon because it is improvised (not purpose-designed as a weapon). Are you saying that someone who gets a DV bonus with all bashing weapons should not get a damage bonus with baseball bats?

If that is what you're saying, I'll just start ignoring your posts (at least on this topic).

You are willfully ignoring the spirit of the rule so that you may erroneously apply its letter. The Spirit of the rule is to apply +1 DV to non-explosive WEAPONS that are thrown, and to allow anything else to deal Str/2 DV Damage. SOME THINGS already have a DV, but they are NOT Weapons. The items on the Improvised Chart cannot be classified as Weapons by any normal person in the pursuit of everyday life. Thus they are clasified as Improvised Weapons, of which there can be an almost infinite number of such things (including the items that Missile Mastery allows yout to throw, such as Nails, cards, etc). Thet took the time to give a Few of those a DV when improvised into something that does harm.

You are trying to give the items a classification they do not deserve.

If you get off on that sort of thing, then that is fine. Does not change the FACT that they are NOT weapons to start with.

TJ, if anyone is willfully ignoring the spirit of the rule to erroneously apply its letter, it's you. You are utterly insistant on fabricating a needless restriction to a bonus that is neither unreasonable or game breaking.

You have offered zero evidence - NONE WHATSOEVER - for the basis of your belief that Improvised Weapons are not Weapons. You haven't appealed to real world logic. You haven't appealed to common sense. You haven't even appealed to a particular piece of RAW or even a possible interpretation of a ruling.

You can't tell us WHY or HOW Improvised Weapons are, in your mind, non-weapons. You also cannot (or perhaps will not?) address the mounting evidence produced to the contrary, both real world and RAW.

Seriously, man, what's the deal?

~Umi

Did you seriously try and say a baseball isn't a weapon? Maybe not by intention, but you could easily kill someone with one with a good pitch to the face.

I would agree about a snowball or a playing card or a marshmallow not getting the DV bonus, certainly. But throwing something like a bottle or a bowling ball, something that without missile mastery could cause significant damage to an opponent, probably should be receiving the bonus.

Nope. I am following the spirit *and* the letter of the rule. You are following neither.

What fact? The name is "improvised weapon" - part of that is *WEAPON*. They are in the Weapon section in Arsenal. They are given stats only given to *WEAPONS*. They are given skill usage of *COMBAT* skills. Also see the argument about legal definitions of weapons above. Most of the items in the improvised weapon tables in Arsenal *ARE* considered weapons (or easily usable as decent weapons) by a lot of people (the only "maybes" would be bowling ball, body, and potted plant but they all can be used as weapons).

You are the *ONLY* one in this thread trying to say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. Maybe that should give you a clue that you are the one that is wrong.

You really make me laugh. Really... A Baseball IS NOT A WEAPON, Neither is a Potted Plant, a bowling ball, or a Chair. The fact that you actually think they ARE weapons is truly laughable. The fact that they can be used as Improvised weapon makes no never mind, because an inumerable number of things can too. DOES NOT MAKE THEM ACTUAL WEAPONS.

As it appears we are getting nowhere, maybe we should jsut relax and let it drop.

You seem to be laughing *alone*. Every other person in this thread disagrees with you. The original purpose for which something was designed does *NOT* define if it is a weapon or how it will be used.

As someone else asked, care to actually back up your views (either in the rules or in the real world)? Multiple people have pointed out why you are wrong (both in-game and in the real world) but you just "prove" your point by restating your view that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

This conversation is definitely pointless unless you are going to actually address the discussion points multiple people have presented you with (to go back to one of the original points, you still haven't given anything to back up why you think the usage of "improvised" in Street Magic is the same as Arsenal when the examples listed are drastically different (non-weapons vs items not designed as weapons but easily usable as such))...

A BAseball ISN'T a weapon. It can kill you , yes, but it is far from a weapon. Just like a Potted Plant and a Bpowling ball is not a weapon, but both can kill you if you are unlucky.

They ARE NOT WEAPONS, so should not receive the bonus.

So, what would, in your eyes, be an improvised weapon that would still get the bonus?

i thought this meant:"this is not a weapon, it is now used as a weapon, and that's why it gets this bonus"

Because they are not weapons. Registered your potted plant lately?
Seriously man, you cannot be arguing that things that can be improvised to cause massive damage are indeed WEAPONS.

They are Non-Weapons, becuase they are not WEAPONS. You have to Improvise their use to actually come even close to being classified as weapons. If you are going to use that as a Bench-mark, then ANYTHING cna be called a weapon, and should get the bonus. The fact that a few examples of such items actually having a DV automatically makes them actual Weapons is ludicrous.

If it IS a weapon, it gets the bonus. If it is not a Weapon, it does not get the +1 DV.

Thrown Sword... Bonus...
Thrown Potted Plant... No Bonus
Thrown Baseball... No Bonus
Thrown Bowling Ball... No Bonus
Thrown Knife... Bonus...

i thought those would only be the difference between aerodynamic and non aerodynamic?

It seems simple to me: if it has a listed DV anywhere in the books (as a thrown weapon), it gets +1. If someone can normally throw it, you're a little better.

If it doesn't, it gets the specified DV from Missile Mastery, no +1.

Wilco is in the right, TJ in the wrong. Design intent is irrelevant, it's only the implementation of the object that matters.

The adept in the horizon adventure specializing in throwing casino chips only accentuates the incorrect nature of TJ's assumption.

If Missile Mastery was intended to give +1 DV to everything (because anything used with the power is therefore a weapon), they wouldn't have phrased it the way they did. A playing card is Str/2 P, not Str/2 + 1 P, as the text clearly says.

Do Casino Chips have a DV stat now? If not, then the implementation of damage with Missile Mastery is exactly correct with my assumption, Str/2p. If they somehow magically had a already stated DV before the Missile Mastery was applied, they would have Damage = to the stat line, and no more, because there is no way that the improvised Poker Chip can be considered a weapon, regardless of any implementation on an Improvised table, and therefore does not receive the +1 due to it being a "Weapon."

*shrug*

Nope, it is the difference between what is designed to be a weapon and what is designed to be a potted plant.
One is a weapon, and the other is not.
A Bowling Ball is Aerodynamic, but it is hardly a weapon.

Which I never argued.

My problem is that there are vast number of objects out there than can be used as a weapon, and because a handful of them were chosen to give a representation of what an improvised weapon can do and a rough example of their damage, they somehow qualify as Weapons, where the remaining object, which are no less lethal, are not considered "Weapons." Don't you see an issue with that? I sure do. A Hammer is far more of a weapon than a potted plant, and yet the potted plant can benefit from being thrown with more damage than the Hammer could be, thanks to the Interpretation of Missile Mastery being thrown around. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Somehow the Plant is a "Weapon" and yet the Hammer is not. Ludicrous.

Okay. Now you are making me laugh uproariously. So some things on the improvised weapon table get the bonus but other things do not? The only determining principle is if *you* consider them a weapon? Umm, right. Per the rules, there is *ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE* between a (non-throwing) knife, sword, and a potted plant for throwing. At least be consistent - either improvised weapons get the bonus or they don't (and I'll stick with they do).

That list doesn't even make sense from a reality standpoint (let alone rules standpoint) - a baseball makes a *FAR* more effective thrown weapon than a thrown sword (except for a few that historically were balanced fairly well for throwing).

This conversation is pointless to continue.