5E Wish List, Or 'What I want for Christmas'. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Draco18s]

No, Dumpshock does not support inline images. You joined four years ago, figure it out!

Surprisingly, it has worked on occasion.
In any case here is a valid link because the original got FUBAR'd.

In any case, the matrix rules really need a good redo. Forget everything that exists in 4E and start over from the ground up: what's the goal, how long should it take, what are the relevant dice pools.

I think if nothing else changed except the matrix rules, I could be happy. Sure, some better techno rules, differentiating classes of mage, few other things would be nice. But fixing the matrix would make things sooo much better.

[Tashiro]

Actually, what would be really nice is if the main rulebook covered:
1) Magic in detail: Consolidate all the spells and initiate powers from SR4, cover initiation and magical groups. Spirit Mentors, etc. Differentiate between different magical styles - perhaps in a manner like martial arts is done. 'This tradition grants these tweaks, which no other tradition has' sort of thing.

2) The Matrix: What commlinks do, how they work. What programs are normally part of a commlink, and how you can customize a commlink (apps). Hacking needs to be explained. What programs are needed to find a node, hack a node, how to create backdoors and what these do. How to navigate, etc. These need to be explained carefully, and a flowchart or other way to keep things quick and moving is needed. Hacking should be as easy as combat at the bare minimum.

3) Technomancy: Make it parallel mages, just for ease of understanding. Make technomancer programs mimic spells (you pick 'force' when you use it, rather than having to 'buy up' force on a program repeatedly). Submersion, avatars, and groups should be present.

4) Cyberware, Bioware, Nanites, Genengineering: It would be nice if these were all detailed and put together. Cosmetic and 'low-invasion' should either have little or no essence loss (I'd expect techniques have been refined to minimize this as much as possible anyway). Remove or minimize essence loss for pre-natal gen-engineering (if it doesn't cost essence to be a clone, it shouldn't cost essence to have inherited genengineering).

[Tanegar]

Differentiate between different magical styles - perhaps in a manner like martial arts is done. 'This tradition grants these tweaks, which no other tradition has' sort of thing.

This is quite an interesting idea.

Remove or minimize essence loss for pre-natal gen-engineering (if it doesn't cost essence to be a clone, it shouldn't cost essence to have inherited genengineering).

Agreed.

[Abschalten]

With the Matrix rules as they CURRENTLY are, making Technomancer complex forms act like spells is a bad idea. The Matrix requires way too many repeated rolls, and eventually the Fading would catch up with them and they would just pass out. Mages do not cast spells as often as technomancers need to roll for Matrix-related tests.

[Draco18s]

Quite. Which is one reason the matrix needs to get simpler--in terms of rolls-per-basic-task*--first.

*Basic tasks include, but are not limited to:
1) Opening a locked door
2) Finding a file on an encrypted server
3) Intercepting/Cancelling/Causing an alarm

[Tashiro]

Agreed. There really needs to be a simpler resolution to TM abilities. And I can see it done as a spell. 'I want this Attack Program at Force 5'. You do the fading test for it, and sustain it. Congrats. You have 'Attack 5' on hold for when you need it. If you wish to sustain a second program, then you suffer the penalty a mage would have for sustaining a spell.

But yes, hacking needs to be simplified, made to flow smoother. Hell, even if they made it an order-of-operations.

STEP 1: Break In. (Choose method: Sleaze, Exploit, etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Security Level of Network
STEP 2: Command Network. -- Takes # of Actions = Rating of Network
STEP 3: Run Command (Spoof, Etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Program Rating being commanded

So, for example, if there was a 'Red 5' network, it would take 4 IPs to break in, and 5 IPs to gain command. Then it might take, for example, 3 IPs to run a command (open a door or what-have-you).

It would make things flow a lot smoother.

[Draco18s]

STEP 1: Break In. (Choose method: Sleaze, Exploit, etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Security Level of Network
STEP 2: Command Network. -- Takes # of Actions = Rating of Network
STEP 3: Run Command (Spoof, Etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Program Rating being commanded

So, for example, if there was a 'Red 5' network, it would take 4 IPs to break in, and 5 IPs to gain command. Then it might take, for example, 3 IPs to run a command (open a door or what-have-you).

I should dig up the hacking rules I whipped up and take another look at them (in terms of number of times dice are rolled).

I know that the difference in rating between the hacker's link and the target machine dictated the time interval (so a huge difference in power--e.g. hacking the pentagon with your iphone--was in hours, where as the reverse, took simple actions).

It at least leveled the playing field somewhat, so that if you had a powerful machine you could do those powerful target hacks in reasonable times, but anyone could hack a door lock given a few minutes.

It also favored a hard-link or mutual signal range, as well as poor-device-relays (every rating 1 or lower device used as a relay point modified the rating difference, making the hack slower). Additional penalty applied to hacking certain things. I forget how I classified it, by cyberware was included, as it was something that shouldn't be hackable in that manner (but left the option).

[Lionhearted]

I would like for programs to be streamlined.
For one there's to damn many of them and they don't differentiate enough to make it immediately clear which one is applicable.
On the top of my head this is what I would do.
• Assume most of the common use programs are integrated to every commlink and have them run off the commlinks stats.
• Have the hacking programs as categories with clear uses. Like Attack/IC, Defense etc. Possibly with specialisations to give them some flair Like having a R4 Attack program with Black IC specialisation.
• Make attributes important for hackers to! it kinda rubs me the wrong way that being thick as mince does nothing to hamper your hacking.

That's just of the top of my head.

[Fatum]

• Assume most of the common use programs are integrated to every commlink and have them run off the commlinks stats.

This is a great idea.

[cryptoknight]

Suggestion: Take this "wish list" and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.

/agree

However, I'd like to see skill pools for character gen cap at 6, with post-gen characters able to go to 12.

After a while the mundanes start to wonder what Karma is good for.

[cryptoknight]

That could be good, though that last part I'd personally save until the new edition's Matrix book. It'll give a good reason to pick it up.

If I had to wait until that happened, I wouldn't bother to pick up any part of 5e until the matrix book came out.

Heck in that case, put out the Matrix book first, then the core rules.

[cryptoknight]

The commlink I think is a natural evolution of the cyberdeck. We have laptops and minicomputers which blow away anything we had 15 years ago, why can't Shadowrun have evolved their technology to be 'personal' in 20 years? In SR3, I was annoyed when I couldn't do basic hacking with a wrist computer, simply because I knew for a fact that people were hacking from laptops -- and that was back in 2001. I saw a parallel between the 'wrist computer' in Shadowrun versus the 'deck, and the laptop versus the PC. I'm actually glad that SR4 has accepted that your PC is now something worn all the time.

Ok

I have a Motorola Xoom Tablet I got 1 year ago.

I have a Samsung Galaxy S3 phone I got 1 month ago

and I have a Phenom2x4 3Ghz system with 16 GB of RAM 2 TB of HD space and a pair of Nvidia GTX-670 video cards in SLI that I got 2 years ago (and upgraded the video cards this year)

Tell me how they're even remotely equal to each other.

[Tashiro]

However, I'd like to see skill pools for character gen cap at 6, with post-gen characters able to go to 12. After a while the mundanes start to wonder what Karma is good for.

I'm of two minds about this. Yes, I agree, we need to tweak the skills and karma spending a bit, but I'm uncertain about raising skill caps. The thing is, the 1-6 scale is supposed to represent 'pitiful/perfect' to some extent. For attributes, 6 is human 'maximum', while for skills, 6 is supposed to represent 'mastery'. I could agree with augmented maximums going up to 9 (and specialties then reach 11) -- it puts a cap on just how big your dice pool can get without other weirdness. I want to see spirits and sprites have the same hard limit, actually - restricting their skills to the same level. Alternatively, I want to see spirits and sprites being able to teach others so their skills go higher than 6.

The other thing is, I would like to see how this would affect the dice pools and chances of hits. Mind, I actually liked the rule for 'buckets of dice' in War!. That, I think, was one of the better things in that rulebook.

[Tashiro]

Ok

I have a Motorola Xoom Tablet I got 1 year ago.

I have a Samsung Galaxy S3 phone I got 1 month ago

and I have a Phenom2x4 3Ghz system with 16 GB of RAM 2 TB of HD space and a pair of Nvidia GTX-670 video cards in SLI that I got 2 years ago (and upgraded the video cards this year)

Tell me how they're even remotely equal to each other.

They can all blow away PCs from 10 years ago, and all of them can run hacking software now. By 2070, your PC should probably be able to fit in your pocket, and serve all those functions. Your phone and tablet would be... hmm, I can't even begin to think what they'd be in 2070. A piece of clear paper you can program? (digital paper, which we're already developing now in the real world?)

[Draco18s]

The thing is, the 1-6 scale is supposed to represent 'pitiful/perfect' to some extent. For attributes, 6 is human 'maximum', while for skills, 6 is supposed to represent 'mastery'.

The problem is that it doesn't work. As soon as you start looking at "average" people doing "simple tasks" they fail about 25% of the time.
You start looking at skilled individuals and throw a moderately difficult problem at them, and they still fail a huge percentage of the time.

Any kind of race car driving, for instance. Most stock car racers aren't going to be "the best in the world" but in the real world, they don't crash that often. Oh, sure, there's a crash every race but you have to consider that there are a hundred cars on the track and it only takes 1 failure to take 10 cars out. With the skill system as it is, those 10 cars would take themselves out, taking another 6 cars (each) with them the first time they rolled dice.

It gets even worse when you start looking at the skill rules and Heavy Weapons. You have to be the #1 guy in the world at firing rockets to hit a moving target the size of a small moving truck...more than 50% of the time.

[Tashiro]

The problem is that it doesn't work. As soon as you start looking at "average" people doing "simple tasks" they fail about 25% of the time. You start looking at skilled individuals and throw a moderately difficult problem at them, and they still fail a huge percentage of the time.

You do have a point there. When looking at dice pools, I'd rather see the chance of failure geared towards an 'average' task. And place 'average' as "something that training is required to do successfully". For example, if you're not used to wiring a TV to an entertainment system, a 25% failure chance should be an option for the 'average individual' - you're considered unskilled (0). When you hit 1, I could see this as still something you might have to do, and re-do, to get it done right... so 25% is 'okay'.

Any kind of race car driving, for instance. Most stock car racers aren't going to be "the best in the world" but in the real world, they don't crash that often. Oh, sure, there's a crash every race but you have to consider that there are a hundred cars on the track and it only takes 1 failure to take 10 cars out. With the skill system as it is, those 10 cars would take themselves out, taking another 6 cars (each) with them the first time they rolled dice.

Hmm. You might have a point there. But the way I'd see it, is that a stock car race is an extended test, you're not going to be looking at it for 'did you fail this check this time', but as a 'who gets X hits first'. The crashes would be for when someone botches - which may call for an emergency test out of everyone else to ensure they don't crash at the same time. What would be the average race driver's skill, though? 3? (Specialty: Cars), for a total of 5? Maybe 4 (6)?

It gets even worse when you start looking at the skill rules and Heavy Weapons. You have to be the #1 guy in the world at firing rockets to hit a moving target the size of a small moving truck...more than 50% of the time.

That might actually be accurate... I've seen enough combat footage to know most shots do miss their targets (bullets, rockets, etc). If they didn't, the casualty rate would be much higher than it is. Most people aren't expecting to hit a specific target, but they're hoping to get in the general vicinity. I think guided rockets would be a little different in Shadowrun, but unguided munitions aren't really known for their accuracy in combat.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

With the rocket scatter rules, you have a low chance of hitting the broad side of a barn from close range ...

[Tashiro]

With the rocket scatter rules, you have a low chance of hitting the broad side of a barn from close range ...

Then that might need to be tightened some. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

With the rocket scatter rules, you have a low chance of hitting the broad side of a barn from close range ...

And a high chance of vaporizing your team when the rocket comes back at you. Trust me, I've encountered that one...

[Draco18s]

You do have a point there. When looking at dice pools, I'd rather see the chance of failure geared towards an 'average' task. And place 'average' as "something that training is required to do successfully". For example, if you're not used to wiring a TV to an entertainment system, a 25% failure chance should be an option for the 'average individual' - you're considered unskilled (0). When you hit 1, I could see this as still something you might have to do, and re-do, to get it done right... so 25% is 'okay'.

The current rules as written don't start offering "reasonable rates of success" until you hit 8 dice minimum. Which ends up being "highly skilled, with a college degree" on the skill end of things.

Hmm. You might have a point there. But the way I'd see it, is that a stock car race is an extended test, you're not going to be looking at it for 'did you fail this check this time', but as a 'who gets X hits first'. The crashes would be for when someone botches - which may call for an emergency test out of everyone else to ensure they don't crash at the same time. What would be the average race driver's skill, though? 3? (Specialty: Cars), for a total of 5? Maybe 4 (6)?

Not going to work out the exact nature of how racing would be handled by the rules. Point is, with the driving rules as they are, your average joe can't ever get on the freeway. Soon as anything happens to cause a driving test, there's a 20 car pileup (say, "traffic suddenly comes to a hault after being at an average speed of 70 mph" which I've been in, and while sudden and potentially frightening, is not so difficult to avoid a crash*).

That might actually be accurate... I've seen enough combat footage to know most shots do miss their targets (bullets, rockets, etc). If they didn't, the casualty rate would be much higher than it is. Most people aren't expecting to hit a specific target, but they're hoping to get in the general vicinity. I think guided rockets would be a little different in Shadowrun, but unguided munitions aren't really known for their accuracy in combat.

"General vicinity" doesn't work in Shadowrun. Missiles have an effective damage radius of 4 meters, and beyond 2 any vehicle worth being on the road is going to ignore the damage. Average scatter is eleven meters. Yes, even for guided missiles using airburst.


*Best example: I was looking to change lanes to the right in order to get off on my exit. Look-ahead informed me that traffic was slowing, but not significantly. I looked right to check my mirror and blindspot--OH SHIT, THE CAR IN FRONT OF ME IS NOT MOVING; SWERVE RIGHT INTO THAT OPEN SPOT. Had I not already been interested in moving right or if my blindspot had not been properly checked and there was a car there, it'd have been pretty bad.

If that had come up in Shadowrun, and if I overestimated my skill ranks in driving at 2 (according to the skill listing in SR4, page 108, this is having actual training), with overestimating my reaction to 3, on average I would not pass the test (threshold 2; Threshold 1 is "traffic coming to a sudden stop" where as 2 is "steering through a narrow spot"). My car isn't sporty enough to have additionally handling modifiers, and the terrain was a freeway (so 0 modifiers from situation). I'm looking at 5 dice versus a threshold of 2.

If I were to follow the descriptions of the skill ratings to the letter, I'd have a 0 skill ("operator's license" and defaulting) and 3 reaction. Which would leave me with 2 dice against a threshold of 1 (at best). With 2 dice to avoid crashing a car when traffic comes to a halt, there would be multicar pileups on every major street in Shadowrun every hour of every day.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The current rules as written don't start offering "reasonable rates of success" until you hit 8 dice minimum. Which ends up being "highly skilled, with a college degree" on the skill end of things.



Not going to work out the exact nature of how racing would be handled by the rules. Point is, with the driving rules as they are, your average joe can't ever get on the freeway. Soon as anything happens to cause a driving test, there's a 20 car pileup (say, "traffic suddenly comes to a hault after being at an average speed of 70 mph" which I've been in, and while sudden and potentially frightening, is not so difficult to avoid a crash*).



"General vicinity" doesn't work in Shadowrun. Missiles have an effective damage radius of 4 meters, and beyond 2 any vehicle worth being on the road is going to ignore the damage. Average scatter is eleven meters. Yes, even for guided missiles using airburst.


*Best example: I was looking to change lanes to the right in order to get off on my exit. Look-ahead informed me that traffic was slowing, but not significantly. I looked right to check my mirror and blindspot--OH SHIT, THE CAR IN FRONT OF ME IS NOT MOVING; SWERVE RIGHT INTO THAT OPEN SPOT. Had I not already been interested in moving right or if my blindspot had not been properly checked and there was a car there, it'd have been pretty bad.

If that had come up in Shadowrun, and if I overestimated my skill ranks in driving at 2 (according to the skill listing in SR4, page 108, this is having actual training), with overestimating my reaction to 3, on average I would not pass the test (threshold 2; Threshold 1 is "traffic coming to a sudden stop" where as 2 is "steering through a narrow spot"). My car isn't sporty enough to have additionally handling modifiers, and the terrain was a freeway (so 0 modifiers from situation). I'm looking at 5 dice versus a threshold of 2.

If I were to follow the descriptions of the skill ratings to the letter, I'd have a 0 skill ("operator's license" and defaulting) and 3 reaction. Which would leave me with 2 dice against a threshold of 1 (at best). With 2 dice to avoid crashing a car when traffic comes to a halt, there would be multicar pileups on every major street in Shadowrun every hour of every day.

And yet, because of Grid Guide, you would have had absolutely no problems in Shadowrun. And since Grid Guide does exist in Shadowrun, very few people will actually have ANY training in Driving whatsoever. Why would they need it? *shrug*

[cryptoknight]

They can all blow away PCs from 10 years ago, and all of them can run hacking software now. By 2070, your PC should probably be able to fit in your pocket, and serve all those functions. Your phone and tablet would be... hmm, I can't even begin to think what they'd be in 2070. A piece of clear paper you can program? (digital paper, which we're already developing now in the real world?)

I'd argue that a 10 year old pc still has more possibilities than either my tablet or my phone.

My question is... where are the desktops of 2070?

In the realm of computing it's pretty much been a trade-off of mobility vs raw performance and horsepower.

We can extrapolate that out to 2070 easy enough.

My phone will have 128 cores running at 15 Ghz and 1 terabytes of ram

My Desktop would then have 512 cores running at 100 Ghz and 16 terabytes of Ram

Again, the bigger bulkier decker like devices should still be out there running circles performance wise around the sexy slim devices.

[UmaroVI]

My question is... where are the desktops of 2070?

They are called Nexuses, but all they let you do is have more personas and subscriptions, not better programs.

As for my wishlist: clear, carefully proofread rules. Especially for the matrix. I don't even care how it works, I just care that it works. Also, timely and clear errata. If 5E does nothing but clarify 4E's rules on messes like Mystic Adepts, cyberlimbs, etc. and then light the matrix rules on fire and make something that works in their place, I will be happy with it.

[Fatum]

I'd argue that a 10 year old pc still has more possibilities than either my tablet or my phone.

My question is... where are the desktops of 2070?

In Unwired. They're called Nexi.
The thing is, mobile devices are running compatible OS (just where Windows 8 is moving), so there's no reason to be tied to a stationary nexus for a hacker when there are isolated wireless networks that need to be hacked, etc.

[Elfenlied]

My wishlist:
1) Keep the wireless matrix, and simplify the rules enough to make combat hacking viable and enjoyable for casual gamers.
2) Integrate less-used skills into exisiting skills. There is no merit in having "Industrial Mechanic" as a separate skill when there's already Hardware. And please remove the clusterfoxtrott that are exotic skills.
3) Make the cost for higher-end 'ware scale better. Price*10 for Deltaware might be justifiable from a fluff perspective, but gameplay wise, it's ridiculous.
4) Make all niches and roles viable.