The Mesh and Grids, Making sense of matrix basics Options

[Redjack]

MATRIX ARCHITECTURE

If you want to get on the Matrix, you need a grid. A grid is what a Matrix service provider uses to connect you to the digital world.

there’s a public grid provided by underfunded non-profits, outdated satellites, and the occasional good Samaritan who’s willing to share a wireless access point or two.

which grids you can access depend on where you are in the world. You can get on the public or any global grid from anywhere on the planet. Local grids can only be accessed if you’re physically in the grid’s service area.

Each local grid is usually provided by a AAA or AA megacorp

Thoughts, based upon these quotes, are:
- The mesh seems to have "just went away"
- The different grids are either on different spectrum (think GSM v CDMA) or VPN based (something like layer 3). The second quote seems to support a spectrum like approach where as the lack of fiscal viability for global grids using a physical solution other than satellite based would logically challenge that. The last question definitely leaves me with a thought that for each city, there will need to be some grid maps, much like the security rating maps some of us use...

MODES
In SR4 we had comlink modes Active, Passive, Hidden, Powered off and the implied Off-Matrix.
In SR5 you have [Active], Running Silent (sr5, pg235), Powered off and the implied Off-Matrix. I like the fact passive is gone.; it was just silly.
- I have an entirely different thread for the 100m silliness.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS
- As a concept, I like Grid Overwatch Division and MARKs (at first glance) seem as good a way as any to deal with it.
- If you get caught hacking, the account you used (and SIN it is linked to) to access said grid is now burned.
- Are there rules for spoofing access to a grid (still reading the rules over and over and ... )
- When you switch grids, do all your marks disappear?

If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals, and so on.

Isn't the buffers in Cold Sim supposed to stop just this sort of thing?

[Epicedion]

MATRIX ARCHITECTURE
Thoughts, based upon these quotes, are:
- The mesh seems to have "just went away"
- The different grids are either on different spectrum (think GSM v CDMA) or VPN based (something like layer 3). The second quote seems to support a spectrum like approach where as the lack of fiscal viability for global grids using a physical solution other than satellite based would logically challenge that. The last question definitely leaves me with a thought that for each city, there will need to be some grid maps, much like the security rating maps some of us use...

For each city you really just need a list of the local grids. There are a handful of global grids (what you use to get to the roadside cafe in Paris to check the menu). Seattle for example has the Emerald City grid, presumably where all the non-Mega local offices and businesses have their hosts. It's also probably what the regular citizens use if they don't have a good corporate account.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS
- As a concept, I like Grid Overwatch Division and MARKs (at first glance) seem as good a way as any to deal with it.
- If you get caught hacking, the account you used (and SIN it is linked to) to access said grid is now burned.
- Are there rules for spoofing access to a grid (still reading the rules over and over and ... )
- When you switch grids, do all your marks disappear?
Isn't the buffers in Cold Sim supposed to stop just this sort of thing?

You can hack your way onto a grid without incurring the wrath of GOD (immediately), and it's an easy (vs 4 dice for most grids) roll. You should probably never use a valid paid account to start a hack.

People on one grid can still "see" people on the other grids, there's just a mild penalty for cross-grid interaction.

[Redjack]

For each city you really just need a list of the local grids. There are a handful of global grids (what you use to get to the roadside cafe in Paris to check the menu). Seattle for example has the Emerald City grid, presumably where all the non-Mega local offices and businesses have their hosts. It's also probably what the regular citizens use if they don't have a good corporate account.

But, for example, I want on the SK grid while in Seattle. Is that a sat uplink? Reference(s) please.

People on one grid can still "see" people on the other grids, there's just a mild penalty for cross-grid interaction.

Can you point me to the page number(s) for that? Thanks!

[Vicar]

Can you point me to the page number(s) for that? Thanks!

"When you’re attempting a Matrix action against a target on another grid, you take a –2 dice pool penalty." p.233.

Also the 2nd example on that page demonstrates it in use.

[Redjack]

"When you’re attempting a Matrix action against a target on another grid, you take a –2 dice pool penalty." p.233.

Thanks!

That is considerably different from:

People on one grid can still "see" people on the other grids, there's just a mild penalty for cross-grid interaction.

[Jaid]

Thanks!

That is considerably different from:

not particularly. it's more specific, but not terribly different, unless you consider -2 dicepool to not be a minor penalty.

[Redjack]

not particularly. it's more specific, but not terribly different, unless you consider -2 dicepool to not be a minor penalty.

How is "seeing someone" and accessing a system even close?

[Epicedion]

How is "seeing someone" and accessing a system even close?

You don't have to hop to a target's grid to interact with them. If someone's on Emerald City and you're on the Renraku Grid, you can still spot them, contact them, track them down, hack their commlink, send them sexy pictures, and so on. You just take a small penalty for those actions.

[Redjack]

You don't have to hop to a target's grid to interact with them. If someone's on Emerald City and you're on the Renraku Grid, you can still spot them, contact them, track them down, hack their commlink, send them sexy pictures, and so on. You just take a small penalty for those actions.

Now you've just implied some mutual signal range interaction...

Edit: Which in turn infers that that at some range (let's say 100m) you can make direct, non matrix connection to a device which in turn infers that two devices can make a direct connection, not needing the matrix between them, rather mutual signal range...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now you've just implied some mutual signal range interaction...

Not really... It is just the nature of grids. You are in the same space, whether you are on the Verizon, Emerald City, Renraku or Public Grid. You suffer cumulatice penalties for each grid you cross, and an additional one for being on the public grid. So, that penalty may be insignificant, or it may be VERY significant. depending upin how many grids you must cross (though honestly, you should really only ever need to cross one grid).

[Redjack]

Not really... It is just the nature of grids. You are in the same space, whether you are on the Verizon, Emerald City, Renraku or Public Grid. You suffer cumulatice penalties for each grid you cross, and an additional one for being on the public grid. So, that penalty may be insignificant, or it may be VERY significant. depending upin how many grids you must cross (though honestly, you should really only ever need to cross one grid).

You still have to start by making a connection of some sort to the node to be able to ID it.

[Epicedion]

You still have to start by making a connection of some sort to the node to be able to ID it.

There aren't any nodes.

[Redjack]

There aren't any nodes.

Semantics. Fucking device.

[Epicedion]

Semantics. Fucking device.

It's important. Think of the Matrix more of a field (like the Higgs Field) with every Matrix-interacting object physically existing inside that field. Perturbing the field with a signal is detectable/manipulable by other devices interacting with the field. With so many devices sending out and receiving ripples of data, the ability to distinguish bits diminishes with distance, but unless the device is offline (and not communicating with the Matrix) just by nature of being within the field means that other devices can detect it and interact.

Physically outside 100m, your detection device (commlink/deck) reads all that information as gobbledygook, so you have to start analyzing the distributed network rather than just your one fixed point. This requires churning through massive amounts of data, which your device and the Matrix team up to interpret into usable information for you, which takes effort (Matrix Perception). The farther away you are from your physical location, as per Noise, the more difficult it is for you and your device and the Matrix to interpret that information.

Grids are, then, just parallel data fields shuttling about different information, but your device exists within all of them. It still interacts with all of them, just weakly compared to whichever grid it's actively on. So you can see/interact with devices on other grids, you're just slightly out of sync and thus it's harder.

[Redjack]

Think of the Matrix more of a field (like the Higgs Field) with every Matrix-interacting object physically existing inside that field. Perturbing the field with a signal is detectable/manipulable by other devices interacting with the field.

You contradict yourself in the very beginning and prove my assertion.

[Epicedion]

You contradict yourself in the very beginning and prove my assertion.

Nope.

[X-Kalibur]

If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals, and so on.

Isn't the buffers in Cold Sim supposed to stop just this sort of thing?

Not that I'm aware of. Cold Sim just stop biofeedback from being lethal. Otherwise how could someone brick anything? It also means getting a deck bricked is going to suck serious balls.

[Redjack]

Nope.

There's no "nope" about it, you did. Got anything else?

[Epicedion]

There's no "nope" about it, you did. Got anything else?

Point out the contradiction. Just saying one exists and then declaring ultimate victory is kind of rude.

[Redjack]

Isn't the buffers in Cold Sim supposed to stop just this sort of thing?
Not that I'm aware of. Cold Sim just stop biofeedback from being lethal. Otherwise how could someone brick anything? It also means getting a deck bricked is going to suck serious balls.

One would think that the same filters that stop your brain from frying would also stop all the circuits from frying... Of course, that makes to much sense for the shoe horn we're being fit to here...

[Redjack]

Point out the contradiction. Just saying one exists and then declaring ultimate victory is kind of rude.

I quoted it. Ignoring it is doubly rude.

[X-Kalibur]

One would think that the same filters that stop your brain from frying would also stop all the circuits from frying... Of course, that makes to much sense for the shoe horn we're being fit to here...

Well, yes and no, right? I'm sort of on the fence with bricking as is... it does provide a nice incentive to not get your ass whooped in cyber combat, as the other person can start bricking your deck. On a more lore related note... I would imagine sending an electronic signal to a device causing it to short and melt is a lot easier than sending psychotropic information to a brain that causes it to fry instead. Even in cold sim you can still take stun damage, after all.

[Epicedion]

I quoted it. Ignoring it is doubly rude.

What you quoted doesn't involve a contradiction, though. If you see a contradiction you're going to have to be far more explicit about what you mean.

[Redjack]

A number of things fall apart:
- Unless the comlink is communicating with the other devices, the focal point of the field would have to be the grid access point, not the comlink. However, how discussed, the focal point of the range s the comlink.
- The noise should also be, on average, directly proportional to the amount of devices generating, within the field. If the processing of the noise is the limiter, then it should vary in size dependent upon the devices at range. As it, again, is limited to 100m from the comlink, again the comlink is the focal point directly connecting to the devices at that range.

[Epicedion]

A number of things fall apart:
- Unless the comlink is communicating with the other devices, the focal point of the field would have to be the grid access point, not the comlink. However, how discussed, the focal point of the range s the comlink.
- The noise should also be, on average, directly proportional to the amount of devices generating, within the field. If the processing of the noise is the limiter, then it should vary in size dependent upon the devices at range. As it, again, is limited to 100m from the comlink, again the comlink is the focal point directly connecting to the devices at that range.

It's an analogy describing the net effect of what we see, because we're looking at an abstraction of an abstraction of a nonexistent thing, making it really hard to demand specific requirements from it. The commlink is communicating with the other devices, it's just gotten so complicated that determining where one device ends and where another begins is almost a matter of imposed convention rather than a physical reality. Your commlink is the effective center of a complicated system of connections it forges with everything around it.

Presumably there is some literal device-to-device wireless connection you could make, but there aren't any rules for that because most of Shadowrun doesn't take place in non-Matrix conditions. Maybe in the Matrix book they'll go into depth about how that works.