MATRIX ARCHITECTURE
Thoughts, based upon these quotes, are:
- The mesh seems to have "just went away"
- The different grids are either on different spectrum (think GSM v CDMA) or VPN based (something like layer 3). The second quote seems to support a spectrum like approach where as the lack of fiscal viability for global grids using a physical solution other than satellite based would logically challenge that. The last question definitely leaves me with a thought that for each city, there will need to be some grid maps, much like the security rating maps some of us use...

MODES
In SR4 we had comlink modes Active, Passive, Hidden, Powered off and the implied Off-Matrix.
In SR5 you have [Active], Running Silent (sr5, pg235), Powered off and the implied Off-Matrix. I like the fact passive is gone.; it was just silly.
- I have an entirely different thread for the 100m silliness.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS
- As a concept, I like Grid Overwatch Division and MARKs (at first glance) seem as good a way as any to deal with it.
- If you get caught hacking, the account you used (and SIN it is linked to) to access said grid is now burned.
- Are there rules for spoofing access to a grid (still reading the rules over and over and ... )
- When you switch grids, do all your marks disappear?
Isn't the buffers in Cold Sim supposed to stop just this sort of thing?

For each city you really just need a list of the local grids. There are a handful of global grids (what you use to get to the roadside cafe in Paris to check the menu). Seattle for example has the Emerald City grid, presumably where all the non-Mega local offices and businesses have their hosts. It's also probably what the regular citizens use if they don't have a good corporate account.



You can hack your way onto a grid without incurring the wrath of GOD (immediately), and it's an easy (vs 4 dice for most grids) roll. You should probably never use a valid paid account to start a hack.

People on one grid can still "see" people on the other grids, there's just a mild penalty for cross-grid interaction.

But, for example, I want on the SK grid while in Seattle. Is that a sat uplink? Reference(s) please.

Can you point me to the page number(s) for that? Thanks!

"When you’re attempting a Matrix action against a target on another grid, you take a –2 dice pool penalty." p.233.

Also the 2nd example on that page demonstrates it in use.

Thanks!

That is considerably different from:

not particularly. it's more specific, but not terribly different, unless you consider -2 dicepool to not be a minor penalty.

How is "seeing someone" and accessing a system even close?

You don't have to hop to a target's grid to interact with them. If someone's on Emerald City and you're on the Renraku Grid, you can still spot them, contact them, track them down, hack their commlink, send them sexy pictures, and so on. You just take a small penalty for those actions.

Now you've just implied some mutual signal range interaction...

Edit: Which in turn infers that that at some range (let's say 100m) you can make direct, non matrix connection to a device which in turn infers that two devices can make a direct connection, not needing the matrix between them, rather mutual signal range...

Not really... It is just the nature of grids. You are in the same space, whether you are on the Verizon, Emerald City, Renraku or Public Grid. You suffer cumulatice penalties for each grid you cross, and an additional one for being on the public grid. So, that penalty may be insignificant, or it may be VERY significant. depending upin how many grids you must cross (though honestly, you should really only ever need to cross one grid).

You still have to start by making a connection of some sort to the node to be able to ID it.

There aren't any nodes.

Semantics. Fucking device.

It's important. Think of the Matrix more of a field (like the Higgs Field) with every Matrix-interacting object physically existing inside that field. Perturbing the field with a signal is detectable/manipulable by other devices interacting with the field. With so many devices sending out and receiving ripples of data, the ability to distinguish bits diminishes with distance, but unless the device is offline (and not communicating with the Matrix) just by nature of being within the field means that other devices can detect it and interact.

Physically outside 100m, your detection device (commlink/deck) reads all that information as gobbledygook, so you have to start analyzing the distributed network rather than just your one fixed point. This requires churning through massive amounts of data, which your device and the Matrix team up to interpret into usable information for you, which takes effort (Matrix Perception). The farther away you are from your physical location, as per Noise, the more difficult it is for you and your device and the Matrix to interpret that information.

Grids are, then, just parallel data fields shuttling about different information, but your device exists within all of them. It still interacts with all of them, just weakly compared to whichever grid it's actively on. So you can see/interact with devices on other grids, you're just slightly out of sync and thus it's harder.

You contradict yourself in the very beginning and prove my assertion.

Nope.

Not that I'm aware of. Cold Sim just stop biofeedback from being lethal. Otherwise how could someone brick anything? It also means getting a deck bricked is going to suck serious balls.

There's no "nope" about it, you did. Got anything else?

Point out the contradiction. Just saying one exists and then declaring ultimate victory is kind of rude.

One would think that the same filters that stop your brain from frying would also stop all the circuits from frying... Of course, that makes to much sense for the shoe horn we're being fit to here...

I quoted it. Ignoring it is doubly rude.

Well, yes and no, right? I'm sort of on the fence with bricking as is... it does provide a nice incentive to not get your ass whooped in cyber combat, as the other person can start bricking your deck. On a more lore related note... I would imagine sending an electronic signal to a device causing it to short and melt is a lot easier than sending psychotropic information to a brain that causes it to fry instead. Even in cold sim you can still take stun damage, after all.

What you quoted doesn't involve a contradiction, though. If you see a contradiction you're going to have to be far more explicit about what you mean.

A number of things fall apart:
- Unless the comlink is communicating with the other devices, the focal point of the field would have to be the grid access point, not the comlink. However, how discussed, the focal point of the range s the comlink.
- The noise should also be, on average, directly proportional to the amount of devices generating, within the field. If the processing of the noise is the limiter, then it should vary in size dependent upon the devices at range. As it, again, is limited to 100m from the comlink, again the comlink is the focal point directly connecting to the devices at that range.

It's an analogy describing the net effect of what we see, because we're looking at an abstraction of an abstraction of a nonexistent thing, making it really hard to demand specific requirements from it. The commlink is communicating with the other devices, it's just gotten so complicated that determining where one device ends and where another begins is almost a matter of imposed convention rather than a physical reality. Your commlink is the effective center of a complicated system of connections it forges with everything around it.

Presumably there is some literal device-to-device wireless connection you could make, but there aren't any rules for that because most of Shadowrun doesn't take place in non-Matrix conditions. Maybe in the Matrix book they'll go into depth about how that works.

In the end the matrix in sr5, in its current implementation, has so much potential with Overwatch, Grids and decks that instead just fails miserably to impress me. Clearer rules around matrix communications and SINs (and their uses, requirements, etc) while dumping stupid shit like matrix bonuses that make no sense and certain devices (weapons) that automatically present an icon, but do not alert law enforcement would have gone miles towards a nice cohesive upgrade. As opposed to winning me over, this thread has created a disdain for it.

Edit: I single out SINs because the fluff, even in the SR5 book reinforces how much you need one, RAW effectively allows you to operate without one.

Rule #1 of the new Matrix: Ignore everything you associated with the term "grid" from SR 1-3. Grids are not partitions of the Matrix, it's merely that every icon (with the probable exception of hosts) has an attribute "grid", and if your grid attribute is different from that of the icon you want to hack, you get a -2 modifier.

Your grid attribute is justified in fluff with the grid being your telco, which for legal users means it is usually be based on location (though that location seems to be on county level). For illegal users...good question. Both the Brute Force and Hack on the Fly actions say "You can also use this action to hop to a grid for which you don't have legitimate access", but does that mean you can hack into a location-based grid if you are not in the vicinity?

Ok, I get that a grid is the presentation of the matrix as 'colored' by your service provider. I understand that at any given location their are two grids: public grid and local grid (provided by a AA or AAA corp). You also have the ability to access any of the big 10 Global Grids from any location as well, presumably via a satellite uplink or perhaps via a proxy log on (obviously in support of some contract). Specifics, even several options to select from for varying situations would have been nice.

Edit: I've sufficiently expressed my disdain for the arbitrary, unexplainable 100m and others the matrix bonuses that defy common sense.

I do however really like the noise construct. This one redeeming feature above all others was sadly missing in SR4.

Is this explained anywhere? Like you say, it seems that if 2 devices are within 100m of each other, there's no grid/matrix interaction necessary...

It's still there, everywhere really, it's just not explicitly described because it's a game that should be accessible to people who don't have their CCIE.


I can see the spectrum thing happening. As for the rest of it, it's more like the Matrix is an agreement between all devices to pass data and share computing power, rather than having a single infrastructure. Satellites would be part of it, certainly, but so would toasters. In return for helping the Matrix work, devices get access to shared computing power and data (simulated in the game by wireless bonuses). It's an opt-in system, of course, but then you don't get the extra bennies.


I think I saw that first and replied to it.


Nope.


It stops that sort of thing from hitting your brain, yeah, but not your tech. Putting a buffer in a digital-to-neurological interface is probably different than a digital-to-digital one.

The fluff isn't definitive enough until the Matrix source book is out, but my take is that grids are purely software.

All wireless communications have been meshed into the Matrix protocols. So if its transmitting wirelessly, it's on the Matrix. Microwaves, radio waves, etc, all are now dedicated to Matrix use. So until the Matrix book brings back nonconventional spectrum (or whatever it was called from Unwired) I am assuming all wireless is used for the Matrix. This means, your PAN, satellites, your car, toaster, etc are all using Matrix protocols. There is no more wi-fi 802.11a/b/n/etc, bluetooth, GSM, CDMA, ham radio, etc, because all low end spectrums in the electromagnetic spectrum is now all dedicated to the Matrix, this would make a lot of sense too, since the Matrix needs to use a lot of bandwidth, so pretty much needs to use the whole spectrum of micro and radio waves.

Now since, I currently believe that grids are merely software, I assume how they work is as a priority system. They basically prioritise data from their grid, and ignore everything else.

I do think in 100 meters you don't need the Matrix, and they you set up a peer-to-peer connection with the device, but the rules currently don't support this, but I think they will once the wireless Matrix book comes out. Because you can have something with wireless on, but not be on the Matrix, and seeing how you can see it, if you are in 100 meters, you can hack it if you are in handshake range, but you can't hack it, if you are outside of that 100 meters, leads me to infer that the 100 meter handshake range is what used to be mutual signal range in SR4, so its a direct peer to peer, with no grid penalties. This is currently just a house rule though, but it makes sense to me, and I'm pretty sure its how the rules were intended to be used.




I don't think they can identify you with a trace. Its kind of like seeing someone's IP address, you can see where they are, but not who they are. Because grids are currently tied to lifestyle, there is no way of getting a new one, so I don't believe that is how the rules are currently intended to work.

You can change what grid you are currently on. So you can start on the public grid and then hop over to Emerald City, or over to Ares global grid, or whatever. But I don't think there is currently a way to jump straight into a grid you do not have access to.

No, you do not lose marks for hopping grids. You have to turn off your deck altogether to lose your marks.

No. VR makes you vulnerable to biofeedback. Matrix damage is not biofeedback. Matrix damage is feedback that specifically attacks your device. Biofeedback specifically targets your brain waves in VR. The only way to be immune to Matrix damage is to not be online.

You can use either Brute Force or Hack on the Fly to get to a grid you don't have legitimate access to, the exception being local grids in whose geographical service region you are not.

(That sentence kinda got away from me a bit.)

In some ways the fluff would seem to go there... I'd say this contradicts that though:

In what way? People that are willing to share data on the public grid prioritise the public grid access. But since there are so few of them, you get a -2 dice to all your Matrix actions showing the network is unreliable. How does that prove its some kind of hardware thing at all?

*sigh* Did you even read the quote? I'm not looking for a big argument or freaking debate here. I simply stated that, as quoted, the basis of the grid is hardware: satellites, access points, etc AND this hardware is not the same hardware running the local grid. From a stand point of availability (and towards debunking some of the assertion of the continued existence of the mesh, which is not supported in RAW) and architecture this does make a difference? Yes.

Why you ask? I'm looking at it from a GM perspective of painting the world to the players in a consistent manner. That manner can definitely include not only spam zones, but also static zones. It supports the chart on pg231. It adds things like: comlinks all seem to have satellite uplink now (a good thing to me; reasonable given another 60 years of advancement of technology). That in turn helps support the mechanic of noise and connectivity now pretty much anywhere in the world. It also means that there will be potential holes in grid coverage, even in a 'stated' service area (that too makes sense. Its not perfect!)

Does that mean that software is not meaningful in a grid? Absolutely not. It simply means that you should not discount the hardware a well.

I image it like the eduroam network: You can log on to every member network with your certificate, which gets checked against your home network's RADUIS server (certificates are issued to user@organisation.com, therefore it knows where to ask).

So let's say you show your Renraku grid credentials to the local grid tower, it checks those credentials with Renraku to check if you are entitled for service, and then opens a tunnel to a Renraku gateway so you get the actual Renraku grid feeling.

Or perhaps, with one additional sentence, it could be noted that one doesn't actually log on to the Public grid, rather, the aforementioned hardware + the mesh is the public grid not requiring an actual "Log On". This then begs the question: Is there really Overwatch on the Public grid? If so, why? Who is expending resources to monitor something that no one makes a profit from?

This is an example of where I was going.

Color me somewhat confused here... Your position for Wireless on, but no Matrix does not work, if wireless is Matrix. Which was your position. You cannot have Wireless without Matrix, per your statement above (which is bolded/italicized).

Yes, if wireless is on, its open to being hacked. However if its not on a grid then its not on the wider Matrix, so wouldn't be able to be seen (or hacked) from outside that 100 meter range. So it'd be connected to your PAN, lets say, but not to your grid. And if its on your PAN, then someone in handshake range can hack it then, but if wouldn't be seen outside of that 100 meter range because its not on the WAN of the Matrix.

Does that make sense?

But that's all my interpretation. That is not how RAW is.

No, does not make sense, because if wireless is on, you are at least on the public grid. At least by what you are saying (Wireless = Matrix).
But since it is interpretation, it is not necessary that I understand it, since I do not interpret it that way. Thanks for taking time to explain it though.

In SR4 you could only hack things that were off the Matrix if you were in mutual signal range. I am still assuming this is the case in SR5. Because its a good way to force the decker to come on runs. Basically mutual signal range is now called handshake range, and all devices have a signal of 100 meters regardless of anything aside from environmental effects. This is why in SR5 you can see everything in 100 meters without needing to make a Matrix Perception test.

So say, Joe Decker is fighting Bruce GoGang Rigger. Now Bruce is on his hot new motorcycle and wants to be able to command it wirelessly, but doesn't want just anyone hacking it, so he links it to his PAN and keeps it off the Matrix by never letting it subscribe to a grid (no grid no WAN Matrix). So if Joe was outside of 100 meters, he wouldn't be able to find Bruce's bike with a Matrix Perception test, because its not subscribed to any grids, so isn't getting any Matrix service. But suddenly once within 100 meters of the bike, he can see Bruce's bike without a test, because he's in mutual signal range, and thus can begin to hack it.

The only reason I think it works like this is because of the way Matrix Perception works within that 100 meter range. But to be fair, I could be misinterpreting the rules.

Ok... from what I've read of the new Matrix Rules:

The Matrix is not Augmented reality. Augmented Reality Objects, AROs, do not show up in the Matrix. Icons show up in the matrix and they are much more controlled in terms of size/form relating to function. If you look at a massive interactive ARO billboard in augmented reality, then open an AR Matrix window, you will only see a small icon representing the ARO transmitter instead of a massive display. Similarly, you do not generate a Persona for viewing the world with AR enabled. You do generate a persona if you hop onto the matrix (which is an action you can do in AR via a "window" in your field of view.) The hacking rules do not seem to talk about Augmented reality, they talk about the Matrix, and Icons. You can hack from AR, but you do so in a window showing the matrix, not from your "standard" augmented reality view of the world.

Everything on the Matrix is on a Grid. Personas, devices, hosts, etc. All of it has a gird that it uses to be on the matrix. Wireless devices mostly have to be on the matrix or nothing. The only exception to this rule I've noted is the basic Micro-Transceiver, which you can use to talk to people within 100 meters without invoking wireless. It's wireless bonus actually makes it's function world wide... so sort of walkie-talkie vs Skype. The only other way to do things seems to be hardlines, but then you don't get wireless bonuses, even if the devices involved are hooked into each other.

If the local noise (spam zones, static zones, jamming, Technomancer/Sprite tricks) is higher than your device's rating, it is off-line. No matrix bonus and it's not considered on the matrix at all.

The matrix itself is a big blank area where the icons for all matrix connected devices hang depending on their physical distance from you. Devices slaved to commlink/RCC/Deck (PAN) generally appear as part of a single PAN icon, but devices of interest (guns and drones are the example) have their own icons by default, but you can find particular device icons if you look for them.

When you hop onto the matrix, the device you use to do so (Commlink/RCC/Deck) transforms into your Persona. If a Rigger jumps into a drone, their persona merges with the drone/vehicle's icon, becoming a new persona.

Because your persona only includes the device you use to hop onto the matrix with, any other matrix enabled gear you have, including things on your PAN, remain on the matrix in a place corresponding somewhat to their physical location. This means a street sam on a run vs Aztech can't hop onto the matrix and move his persona into an Ares Host in order to "protect" his cyberware or smartguns. All those device icons are still on the matrix, not in the host.

You can get on the Public Grid or a Global Grid (one for each mega corp) anywhere on the planet where the Noise level doesn't block your access outright. Keep in mind that being underground or in a desert imposes noise penalties that may prevent you from connecting as these are static zone penalties, not distance penalties.

The public grid imposes a -2 penalty on everyone using it, but the penalty only applies to matrix actions. It's terrible to browse from, but fine for getting full use of your Smartgun.

You can only get on a Local Grid if you are in the physical coverage area. You can still interact with Icons on a local grid you aren't in the coverage for, but you take the cross grid penalties.

It's implied you can buy your way onto a grid legally, but right now the only grids you have access to legally are set by your lifestyle. Hacking onto a grid can be done through brute force or hack on the fly, without their usual penalties for success and failure respectively, but doing so does start your Overwatch Score, and that accrues with time even if you don't hack anything else.

When dealing with device icons outside of a host, you take a noise penalty for distance between you and the icon. Due note that cross grid and public grid penalties are not noise. Noise for SR5 covers distance, spam, and dead zones, among other things. It can all be mitigated by Noise reduction software or hardware, most of which stacks.

You don't take a distance noise for interacting with a host, or anything in a host.

Once inside a host, you no longer take cross grid penalties either. Public grid penalties do still apply.

The 100 meter handshake range is not well defined in the SR5 core rules, but some of the developers have stated that their intention was that you do not take cross grid or even public grid penalties for interacting with device icons within 100 meters. RAW does not support this, although it does explain the lack of grid related penalties in many examples. Handshake range is not intend to be the same a hardline direct connection, an important distinction for security devices on a WAN (Slaved to a host.)

The Public grid is a bad place to put a protected host. All the IC, and probably the security Spider, in the Host would take the -2 penalty for Public Grid, but a decker on a local or global grid breaking in would only take the -2 cross grid penalty when breaking into the host, but no penalties at all inside the host.

The Public Grid is a good place to put gear you want a wireless bonus from. A Smartlink on the public grid will not suffer at all from a -2 matrix action penalty, but a decker attempting to hack it will either take a -2 public grid penalty or a -2 cross grid penalty to hack it... unless you use the wireless handshake concept and the decker is within 100 meters.

The 100m "handshake range" idea is a houserule that seems to have come from blending SR4 and SR5 Matrix rules. While Shadowrun technically has only one dev (Jason Hardy), I assume the term is being used to mean everyone who worked on the game, and even within that broad definition I am unaware of any "devs" who have stated that you don't take cross-grid or piblic grid penalties for being within 100m (direct connections notwithstanding).

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.ph...l=1#post6157929

I'm not exactly a fan of all the comments JM Hardy made on ENworld, but he apparently said this:

I checked with him after that, and he told me that when he said "go after them directly" he meant through meatspace, as with a gun, and that he'd read Abstruse's comment as just a restatement of the -2 penalty, not a reinterpretation of it. I believe I posted that conversation, here or on Shadowrun Tabletop (I don't remember which), although not on enworld.org.