Any idea what LGBT rights are like in the Sixth world?, I'm somewhat curious. Options

[Zednark]

I mean, if we assume continued progression of LGBT activism, chances are it's accepted most places, but to what extent? What about the traditional Yakuza? What about the conservative CAS? In fact, due to the lack of a more liberal federal government, the CAS might actually have regressed.

Is there any data on this? I can't help but think it'd have ramifications in certain contexts. Or for backstories, such as a gay CAS'er who left the country to avoid harassment, or a kobun's daughter who was kicked out of the Yakuza fold after it was found she was sleeping with a female ganger.

[Renard]

Well, its difficult to draw direct connections from the ways things are now to what they might be in the 2070s. The setting is ultimatively dystopic, so one could assume that the 2070 society might have regressed a bit. With magic, metahumans, ghosts, HMMVV, cyberware, AIs and whatnot, its easy to see how the people could have tried to affirm their view of the world by clinging to ideas of 'normalcy' dating back to a time when the world was still 'right'. An important point to keep in mind is that the current societal situation has alrady bypassed one of the biggest diversion points (the Awakening), so its hard to say how hard the 'throwback' would have been if suddenly all sorts of magic weird had popped up. With UGE, goblinization, crash and the like following one after the other, it should not be neglected to see how those events may have people more negative and latently or openly xenophobic.

Of course there will be groups fighting for those rights, as with awakened, awakened critters, metahumans and and and...However there will as well be many on the other side. Hategroups of every ilk and from many political and societal positions.

Thats my tzwo cents in short, hope I was able to keep it relevant and understandable^^

[FriendoftheDork]

I mean, if we assume continued progression of LGBT activism, chances are it's accepted most places, but to what extent? What about the traditional Yakuza? What about the conservative CAS? In fact, due to the lack of a more liberal federal government, the CAS might actually have regressed.

Is there any data on this? I can't help but think it'd have ramifications in certain contexts. Or for backstories, such as a gay CAS'er who left the country to avoid harassment, or a kobun's daughter who was kicked out of the Yakuza fold after it was found she was sleeping with a female ganger.

I get the impression that most controversial issues such as race, gender, homosexuality etc. has taken many steps back - there are just too many other concerns and changes. Metahumans, magic, vitas, HMHVV, augmentations... It seems society has either been forced to become more egalitarian, or simply exchanged it's former prejudices for new ones. But this is based on Seattle a metropolis that was already extremely liberal 70 years ago.

I would not be surprised if CAS kept the old prejudice and combined it with the new and improved hate, and the Yakuza is mentioned as still having issues with gender equality.

[Zednark]

Well, its difficult to draw direct connections from the ways things are now to what they might be in the 2070s. The setting is ultimatively dystopic, so one could assume that the 2070 society might have regressed a bit. With magic, metahumans, ghosts, HMMVV, cyberware, AIs and whatnot, its easy to see how the people could have tried to affirm their view of the world by clinging to ideas of 'normalcy' dating back to a time when the world was still 'right'. An important point to keep in mind is that the current societal situation has alrady bypassed one of the biggest diversion points (the Awakening), so its hard to say how hard the 'throwback' would have been if suddenly all sorts of magic weird had popped up. With UGE, goblinization, crash and the like following one after the other, it should not be neglected to see how those events may have people more negative and latently or openly xenophobic.

Of course there will be groups fighting for those rights, as with awakened, awakened critters, metahumans and and and...However there will as well be many on the other side. Hategroups of every ilk and from many political and societal positions.

Thats my tzwo cents in short, hope I was able to keep it relevant and understandable^^

That's one way of looking at it, but Cyberpunk has always been fairly progressive. For example, I remember a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about a Solo's bar, and the bartender (or was it the owner?) was married to a transgender woman. And that was published in the early 90's.

[Critias]

It's been mentioned in several sourcebooks that there are hold-outs and pockets of ugly social conservatism still in place, sure, but for the most part laws (UCAS or most corporate ones) have relaxed and embraced LGBT rights just fine, and technological advancements have, especially, made some stuff like transitioning quite a bit easier. There are certainly still certain cultures that will frown on such things -- all the usual suspects that also happen to be metaracists, traditionalist Japanese, CAS stereotypes, Humanis jackholes, that sort of thing -- but legally, folks're basically in the clear. Even the groups that are still holdouts about it are often doing so secondarily (because they have bigger fish to fry, like crazy metas or whatever), or for their own selfish reasons (rather like Nazi Germany was anti-homosexual, but at least in part justified it because homosexuals didn't produce any new Aryans, so they were worthless wastes to the state; some Humanis types might feel the same about good humans who don't make babies).

[Wakshaani]

Heck, even teh CAS has gay senators. Openly gay ones who have husbands even.

The Zimmerman Process of gender-reasignment has no impact on Essence, either. Expensive, sure, and takes a bit of time, but anyone can change gender risk-free and with a complete rebuild from the toes on up. Shorter, taller, whatever ethnicity you want ... the tech's there for anyone.

As such?

LGBT is just ordinary folks.

(There are, of course, a few holdout pockets, as noted, but they're so minor as to be insignificant.)

[Sengir]

Well, its difficult to draw direct connections from the ways things are now to what they might be in the 2070s. The setting is ultimatively dystopic, so one could assume that the 2070 society might have regressed a bit. With magic, metahumans, ghosts, HMMVV, cyberware, AIs and whatnot, its easy to see how the people could have tried to affirm their view of the world by clinging to ideas of 'normalcy' dating back to a time when the world was still 'right'. An important point to keep in mind is that the current societal situation has alrady bypassed one of the biggest diversion points (the Awakening), so its hard to say how hard the 'throwback' would have been if suddenly all sorts of magic weird had popped up. With UGE, goblinization, crash and the like following one after the other, it should not be neglected to see how those events may have people more negative and latently or openly xenophobic.

While IRL there are many movements using an imaginary (or at least heavily idealized) "good old time" as a counter-ideal to all problems of the modern world, discrimination in Shadowrun seems to have taken another classic way of crackpots and fearmongers -- Simply reuse the old boilerplate ideologies with new enemies:

Those abominations claim to be meta-human? Just compare their vile physiognomy to that of true examples of pure humanity, such as our brother Lagbaja Israeli and his beautiful husband.

As far as the T in LGBT goes, as usual it gets a bit left behind (then again, ignoring the social repercussions of technological change is hardly limited to this case, see nanotech). IIRC, the penile implant didn't appear until 4th Ed in Augmentation, and only the German version included the vagina implant.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

IIRC, the penile implant didn't appear until 4th Ed in Augmentation, and only the German version included the vagina implant.

Which is strange, since they were both (Mr. Studd and the Midnight Lady) in CP2020. From the beginning, IIRC, but definitley in the 2nd Edition of the CP2020 book.

[Glyph]

The SR5 rules are, as usual, a screwy, inconsistent mish-mash. Completely changing your ethnicity, gender, or even apparent metatype doesn't cost Essence, but getting a permanent tan or having your body hair removed does. Cyber genitalia have a flat Nuyen and Essence cost, but the bioware version is costlier/higher Essence cost for females than for males (partly because it is not even its own entry, but part of the effing shadowtalk under reproductive replacement - "It should be noted that customization falls under the same header. Cost if half of a replacement, but boy oh boy, is it worth it.").

[Wakshaani]

The SR5 rules are, as usual, a screwy, inconsistent mish-mash. Completely changing your ethnicity, gender, or even apparent metatype doesn't cost Essence, but getting a permanent tan or having your body hair removed does. Cyber genitalia have a flat Nuyen and Essence cost, but the bioware version is costlier/higher Essence cost for females than for males (partly because it is not even its own entry, but part of the effing shadowtalk under reproductive replacement - "It should be noted that customization falls under the same header. Cost if half of a replacement, but boy oh boy, is it worth it.").

Female costs the exact same as male. Customization is different than replacement... getting a custom job costs half of what a replacement does.

I have no idea how you got the idea that ladyparts cost more from that, but I'm curious!

[hermit]

I mean, if we assume continued progression of LGBT activism, chances are it's accepted most places, but to what extent? What about the traditional Yakuza? What about the conservative CAS? In fact, due to the lack of a more liberal federal government, the CAS might actually have regressed.

It varies by region, state, or corp. According to the Sprawl Survival Guide, the best source so far, homosexuality is pretty much tolerated in Western countries like the UCAS, Northern Europe, and California, as well as the NAN. It's a contentious issue in Japan (meaning it's DADT), with Shiawase being tenatively anti-and MCT being tenatively pro-marriage (as per Corp Guide). Horizon is, of course, all the pansexuality all the way.

The CAS, which rarely gets talked about in SR in general, is pretty much a blank slate in that regard, excpept vague hints that it is more conservative than the UCAS. That can mean anthing from Clinton-era DADT to Putinism (including moderate persecution of homosexuals) to the theocratic populist dictatorship Cruz stands for, complete with burning Awakened at the stake and homosexuals being hunted and herded into PAB-based clinics to be remade into proper Christians, much like the German pocket theocracy around Munster (not a good place to be meta, gay or female either, btw). YMMV.

I have no idea how you got the idea that ladyparts cost more from that, but I'm curious!

Reproductive replacement, pp 118 Chrome Flesh. Compare with Sex Change (p 107) and Cyber Genitalia (pp 73).

discrimination in Shadowrun seems to have taken another classic way of crackpots and fearmongers -- Simply reuse the old boilerplate ideologies with new enemies:

That depends. An Ute indian or Runenthing druid will go by the old races, while America seems to have shifted towards metas, since in SR, most non-white Americans (Latinos and anyone with measurable indigenous roots, which arguably includes most African Americans and solves the population problem the NAN pose otherwise) emigrated into the newly created tribal lands or Aztlan. Aztlaners, on the other hand, probably hate Gringo norms more than Atlaner trolls, given continuous activity by Texan terrorists (or, if you prefer, freedom fighters) that certainly is exploitd to the last by Atlan's media empire.

rather like Nazi Germany was anti-homosexual

Interestingly, they were entirely anti-gay; much like Victorian England, female homosexuality just never occurred to them and thus, was petty much unpersecuted.

For example, I remember a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about a Solo's bar, and the bartender (or was it the owner?) was married to a transgender woman. And that was published in the early 90's.

Ah yeah, Tales from the Forlorn Hope, 1992. That's still a pretty decent campaign book.

[Sonus]

There have also been some mentions of transgender and intersex characters.

So at the very least there are people in the public eye that fit under the MOGAI umbrella.

I come to the conclusion that if there are enough MOGAI people to be mentioned in the random tidbits we get it has to have achieved a pretty decent level of acceptance.

Here is a quote from Augmentation

Evo’s new sexmorph bioware is about to change
the world’s mind—and bodies—when it comes to sexual
identities. According to Evo’s press release, in addi\x00tion to diverse internal bio-modifications and an array
of hormonal glands, the introduction of cutting-edge
memory bioplastic implants now allows bioelectrical
switching of functional sex within only a few hours. The
smart materials alter body and facial contours (similar
to Evo’s MasqueradeTM false front implants, albeit more
advanced) and extend or retract organs to conform to
male or female morphology. According to Evo, vocal
range, skin, hair coloring, and growth or removal of hair
can be adjusted with simple add-on treatments for full
transformation. The new line’s release has been delayed
until later this year while it awaits further results from
clinical testing and CCBA approval.

There is enough acceptance that corps are devoting resources to catering to transgender and genderfluid individuals at the very least.

Then there is this in the 4th Anniversary Edition:

Most people can’t quite believe that there used to be a time when their
ancestors discriminated against each other based on inconsequential
differences like the color of their skin or which type of consenting
adult(s) they liked to have sex with. These days, you’re much more
likely to encounter prejudice based on your horns or your pointed ears
than because you’re pink and the other guy is brown.

[hermit]

There is enough acceptance that corps are devoting resources to catering to transgender and genderfluid individuals at the very least.

Evo and, to a lesser degree, Horizon are. MCT probably not, Renraku not and Shiawase quite certainly not. Saeder-Krupp probably has some limited acceptance, being Deutschland, inc., Wuxing probably is just as conservative as Shiawase, NeoNET might swing more Evo's way, and Ares, edging towards Americanness and conservativism probably is less open too. Aztechnology is a complete wild card.

I come to the conclusion that if there are enough MOGAI people to be mentioned in the random tidbits we get it has to have achieved a pretty decent level of acceptance.

In the UCAS, which all the snippets about society are geared to. In the CAS, Westphalia, Nigeria, Shaanxi, Arabia? I don't really see that. It's a correct assumption for the core setting - the UCAS-affiliated Seattle Metroplex - but even in the New Frontier states of the UCAS, the Dakotas and Iowa, I kind of have a hard time seeing such tolerance.

[Sonus]

Evo and, to a lesser degree, Horizon are. MCT probably not, Renraku not and Shiawase quite certainly not. Saeder-Krupp probably has some limited acceptance, being Deutschland, inc., Wuxing probably is just as conservative as Shiawase, NeoNET might swing more Evo's way, and Ares, edging towards Americanness and conservativism probably is less open too. Aztechnology is a complete wild card.


In the UCAS, which all the snippets about society are geared to. In the CAS, Westphalia, Nigeria, Shaanxi, Arabia? I don't really see that. It's a correct assumption for the core setting - the UCAS-affiliated Seattle Metroplex - but even in the New Frontier states of the UCAS, the Dakotas and Iowa, I kind of have a hard time seeing such tolerance.

Fair enough on most points, but I feel Ares would probably be somewhat middle of the road since it is so closely tied in eith UCAS and being based in Michigan which is pretty liberal for the most part. Usually.

I guess it still really depends on where you live, just like now.

[Sengir]

Saeder-Krupp probably has some limited acceptance, being Deutschland, inc.,

There is an ad in the Rhine-Ruhr book in which S-K lauds itself as not knowing any discrimination on any basis. Of course, advertisement...

[hermit]

There is an ad in the Rhine-Ruhr book in which S-K lauds itself as not knowing any discrimination on any basis. Of course, advertisement...

Well, Germans like to think so too, but we do discriminate in some ways against both trans and homosexal people.

[Sengir]

Well, Germans like to think so too, but we do discriminate in some ways against both trans and homosexal people.

Thanks, captain. But if S-k are actively advertising their fair treatment, it at least shows they don't consider "you won't get nothing until the courts force us" as their core brand identity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Zednark]

Ah yeah, Tales from the Forlorn Hope, 1992. That's still a pretty decent campaign book.

Yeah, that's the one! I thought it was pretty forward thinking, especially considering this is '92 we're talking about.

Evo’s new sexmorph bioware is about to change
the world’s mind—and bodies—when it comes to sexual
identities. According to Evo’s press release, in addi\x00tion to diverse internal bio-modifications and an array
of hormonal glands, the introduction of cutting-edge
memory bioplastic implants now allows bioelectrical
switching of functional sex within only a few hours. The
smart materials alter body and facial contours (similar
to Evo’s MasqueradeTM false front implants, albeit more
advanced) and extend or retract organs to conform to
male or female morphology. According to Evo, vocal
range, skin, hair coloring, and growth or removal of hair
can be adjusted with simple add-on treatments for full
transformation. The new line’s release has been delayed
until later this year while it awaits further results from
clinical testing and CCBA approval.

I want.

[Sonus]

I want.

Same here.

[binarywraith]

That's one way of looking at it, but Cyberpunk has always been fairly progressive. For example, I remember a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about a Solo's bar, and the bartender (or was it the owner?) was married to a transgender woman. And that was published in the early 90's.

Well, transgender stops being a concern when changing your physical gender is just a moderately expensive medical procedure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Cyberpunk is good about, and the transhumanists that are post-cyberpunk are all over it.

[Sengir]

Well, transgender stops being a concern when changing your physical gender is just a moderately expensive medical procedure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

There remains the question of getting the correct ID. Sure, technically it's a minuscule matter, but depending on the issuing authority you might still be burdened with fees and made-up requirements, meaning being poor and trans or goblinized results in having a "wrong" SIN in certain places.

Cyberpunk is good about, and the transhumanists that are post-cyberpunk are all over it.

The real-life transhuman movement has a surprising number of MRAs and neoreactionary/alt-right types among its number. See Curtis Yarvin, Michael Anissimov, or the problems Transhuman had with a certain small but vocal part of their fanbase.


PS: On the technological side of progress, artifical wombs are being used in SR. And at least dual maternity seems to be on par with the level of biotech, on dual paternity I'm not so sure because creating a child (which isn't just a clone) from two fathers is far harder even in theory.

[hermit]

On the technological side of progress, artifical wombs are being used in SR. And at least dual maternity seems to be on par with the level of biotech, on dual paternity I'm not so sure because creating a child (which isn't just a clone) from two fathers is far harder even in theory.

Why? They have technology to reliably crate pluripotent stem cells from tissue. Those cells can be coaxed into becoming egg cells. Just add sperm (actually, this is probably what they do with women too, since it has a much lower chance of inducing ovaries-exploding tubular pregnancies than any egg cell extraction methods (they can form sperm too, being pluripotent).

[Starmage21]

From a canon fluff perspective in Shadowrun, IIRC racism as we know it is generally nonexistent. Racism in the sixth world is more about what Humanis is known for: humans vs the others. I suspect that with the technology levels as they exist in shadowrun that the LGBT issue is similarly over and done with (vis a vis: nobody cares). If it werent for the purely physical changes that were possible, you still have the matrix where you can go live out literally any fantasy you can think up with all the realism you want (or dont want). Transgender issues essentially resolved, and fashion all over the place pretty much leaves only the LG letters left to deal with, and even now people who object to that is fading quickly even in places where there is an institution of NOPE (Russia).

[hermit]

I suspect that with the technology levels as they exist in shadowrun that the LGBT issue is similarly over and done with (vis a vis: nobody cares). If it werent for the purely physical changes that were possible, you still have the matrix where you can go live out literally any fantasy you can think up with all the realism you want (or dont want). Transgender issues essentially resolved, and fashion all over the place pretty much leaves only the LG letters left to deal with, and even now people who object to that is fading quickly even in places where there is an institution of NOPE (Russia).

Well, technology to cure homosexual urges is clearly present in Shadowrun, as per SimDreams and Nightmares and PAB: Simply burn out unwanted emotions, such as same-gender attraction, and condition in heterosexual urges (and add some eConversion and more godly behavior while you're at it). Wham bam, thank you oh Lord and Savior! I think the main controversy would be whether it's use is in any way acceptable (and given that Lone Star regularly uses a similar method to 'cure' violent criminals, and Horizon goes even farther, that's not that far-fetched).

Also, why only L and G? What happened to Bisexuals?

[Sonus]

Also, why only L and G? What happened to Bisexuals?

We get the Concealment power for free at character creation.