Shadowrun 6, What needs to be changed? Options

[freudqo]

Biggest difference Freudgo, is that magic doesn't exist in reality and therefore anything that happens because of magic is OK. Who's to say what would happen if magic DID come back?

NAN's victory is a direct consequence of the magic come back.

As Moirdryd told, a huge part of historical events would have absolutely no credibility had they not happened. And governments are way more unpredictable than what you seem to think.

Who's to say what the US government would do if magic came back and the US army got its ass kicked by overwhelming magical powers? Please tell me of your alternative to the Denver Treaty.

[sk8bcn]

Honestly, I don't think it really was tought out this way.

It was just like, "what would be cool do to with this land, that relates to the past?"

That's why :

>north america is Indians/Confederates/Union (btw the way very, very close to Deadlands background-situation).
>Carribbean : yes Pirates!!!!!
>France: kind of monarchy,
> Germany : vaguely allied states.

I think that the concept preceded to logic of the story. I guess it was up to the author to wrap up a somewhat credible story around it. With more or less success.

[freudqo]

Oh, I agree it was probably the process you described.

And I agree that there was "more or less" success. Just saying NAN is closer to the more than the less (except when they got specific about demographic figures).

[Moirdryd]

Almost everything in Shadowrun was first put together because it was COOL (in fact a surprising amount of stuff when you look at it has a post-apoc flavour in many respects when you get outside the sprawl only without the nuclear fallout) but FASA also did a pretty damned good look at How and Why, it's one of the few games set on an alternative Earth that's in the Future that really takes a good stab at providing a coherent timeline of events and also sneaks in ways that events can twist (like the initial Crash, VITAS, the Eurowars and the Great Ghost Dance vs the incredulous arrogance of the US military). Deadlands does this pretty well in a historical setting.

IMHO one of the worst things they ever did in regards to Shadowrun was try and make things like technology and certain world events match more in line with what modern events and technologies etc did. When you do that you dilute the world mythos and ultimately weaken your game universe. The same could be said for rules sets with the obsession everyone has for 'streamlining', sometimes it works really well (D&D 5e being a very good case in point) and sometimes it doesn't at all. Sometimes complexity is in fact desirable. Shadowrun in it's flavor and theme is a game deserving of it's moving parts and sometimes those parts are overwrought, for example; Rigging in 3rd edition, the vehicle combat rules has a stack of calculations for things like the Maneuver Value as is fairly intimidating, there's also a quick system in Rigger 3 that removes a chunk of the options for a simple roll, however there is a handy wikia site that provides the same options from the core rules, removes the need for a maneuver score and makes using those options as simple as the Rigger 3 limited option rules (link http://denver.wikidot.com/info:rigger-quick-resolution) this is a really good example of streamlining. Staying simulationist to a degree is something that certainly should be a thing.

[Shev]

IMHO one of the worst things they ever did in regards to Shadowrun was try and make things like technology and certain world events match more in line with what modern events and technologies etc did. When you do that you dilute the world mythos and ultimately weaken your game universe.

Yup. This is why I dont think whoever (I'm holding out hope that CGL loses the license) makes Shadowrun 6th is going to make it a continuation: pretty much everything starting from Haley's Comet and beyond was pure drek. It's reboot or bust at this point, and if there's one thing the SR Returns games have proven it's the popularity of the 1-3rd edition setting.

[Moirdryd]

I don't know about everything post comet being drek, Year of the Comet was kinda weird but I believe the SOTA books came out afterwards as did Dragons of the Sixth World and several of the Shadows Of books and they were all pretty good.

[DeathStrobe]

A reboot is basically a terrible idea. What ever happened to Frank Trollman's Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker? Wasn't that suppose to be the reboot the kills Shadowrun, and that was 7 years ago.

Even things that are Shadowrun-like, like Eclipse Phase are still no where near as popular as SR is.

All the insane SR lore is what really makes SR for me, on top of the rule of cool where you can have motorcycle jousting rock vampire elves fighting cybernetic troll abominations. Everything about SR really is all about the rule of cool. Which is why we get VR Matrix, dragon CEOs, and literal cultural tribalism and figurative with the return of the NANs. Without this stuff, it is not Shadowrun. I never understood why anyone would want SR to not be cool and instead be just another cyberpunk game, but maybe with elves or something.

[Shev]

The Ghostwalker stuff was all right, but most of the rest of it (shedim, drakes, SURGE, etc) was terrible. Granted, all of that looks like Hemingway in comparison to what came after, but that's when the definite downward slope began.

[binarywraith]

A reboot is basically a terrible idea. What ever happened to Frank Trollman's Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker? Wasn't that suppose to be the reboot the kills Shadowrun, and that was 7 years ago.

Even things that are Shadowrun-like, like Eclipse Phase are still no where near as popular as SR is.

All the insane SR lore is what really makes SR for me, on top of the rule of cool where you can have motorcycle jousting rock vampire elves fighting cybernetic troll abominations. Everything about SR really is all about the rule of cool. Which is why we get VR Matrix, dragon CEOs, and literal cultural tribalism and figurative with the return of the NANs. Without this stuff, it is not Shadowrun. I never understood why anyone would want SR to not be cool and instead be just another cyberpunk game, but maybe with elves or something.

Meanwhile Cyberpunk 2077 is getting a AAA level video game release. Trailer was at E3 today. There's a market for cyberpunk, and SR is losing it badly because it is so mired in terrible writing decisions that the only way a spinoff VG property was successful was going back to the 2050's.

[Moirdryd]

True but we have been waiting for the Cyberpunk release announcement for years (and I am happy it's coming) and the Shadowrun games (Returns, Dragonfall, HongKong) were all pretty good and are still selling. Trying to make Shadowrun match the future of Now is a mistake, trying to make it a massively over simplified abstract system is a mistake. People always seem to think this is what they want and sometimes they are right (Modiphius are certainly riding the wave of their 2d20 system plugged into several big licenses), but a large amount of the biggest sellers out there are NOT those things but instead tend to have warts. WoD 20th Anniversary editions prove this, the FASA release of Earthdawn 4th is gaining attention, RuneQuest is top of DriveThru's charts right now, Call of Cthulhu system related products and creeping back into regular prominence, these are all classic systems and games that cleave pretty close to their roots (or are still in their roots). There are lots of streamlined and simplified rules systems and yet the only ones you see for any length of time are 5E adaptions, Modiphius 2d20 and the new 7th Sea. We certainly shouldn't be afraid of having some crunch.

[Magnaric]

The Ghostwalker stuff was all right, but most of the rest of it (shedim, drakes, SURGE, etc) was terrible. Granted, all of that looks like Hemingway in comparison to what came after, but that's when the definite downward slope began.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree. I actually like Shedim as an antagonist-pulling-the-strings, and the 4E events in Denver, and the Dragon Civil War were pretty interesting. Same with the Aztlan-Amazonia war and the situation around Bogota. Granted, the War! book was pretty controversial because of it's rules for battle rifles, Milspec commlinks, etc, but the setting information and tips for Shadowrunners in a Vietnam-style setting were excellent. And they were a nice change from what I've seen as the all-too-common default of overpopulated sprawls and gritty urbanisation. Seattle is great, but I don't want every campaign or run to feel like a slightly different version of it.

Likewise, I really liked the Market Panic book and the info leading up to the Megacorporate Audit. Sadly, I think it was horrendously underused, but that's an issue with the execution, not the concept. Same with CFD. Not a bad idea, but it was yet another body-snatching-while-stuck-in-a-city(at least as far as Boston goes) plot, just like Big City and Renraku-Arcology:Shutdown before it. And that's the main issue I have, not that the plots they've come up with in 4E and 5E were hot garbage, but just that they never used them to their full potential. The Audit itself made an incredible backdrop for tons of runs between corporations targetting each other, from AAA-rated ones down to even A-rated or unrated ones trying to get an edge. But there wasn't really a campaign book that detailed HOW to make use of all that. Heck even after Boston got "resolved" in the Lockdown book, we only heard about Neonet's demise as barely a footnote in a later book. That should have been a major plot resolution by itself.

The writers have decent ideas, but the game/Catalist/whoever needs to focus on following through with them to their conclusion. Otherwise, it feels like they just can't be bothered to wrap things up.

[Synner667]

So let's assume for a second that we are starting the design of the 6th version of Shadowrun.

We'll start with an analysis of the current edition to see what needs to be addressed.

What do you think needs to be addressed?

A.

this comes up every time a new edition is boiling in the clone vats.

Just. Let. It. Go.

Shadowrun is xx number of years old, and it shows.

When it came out, cyberpunk was a thing, urban fantasy was a new idea for mainstream games, and almost every system created rules for it,
Now it's mainstream, and its the grandad telling everyone how relevant it is, while shuffling around so no-one gets to look past it and see all the other games that also exist.

It’s old. It's fat. It's confused.

As with software, constantly trying to shoehorn new tech into old devices just doesn't work after a while.

Burn it to the ground, sort out the setting and start again.

Considering other games on the market, does shadowrun 666 [the devil bastard edition] really need a 400 page base rulebook costing $50 ?? Does it really need to be so incomplete that you must buy other sourcebooks just to be able to play it properly ??

Yah, yah, yah. Company profits. Cash Cow. Desperate fans. New editions of old sourcebooks to make money. Etc.

Except now, there are so many unofficial shadowrun conversions, the makers should really be looking at what people are playing and why - and that's from a company with 7 different versions of the same game supposedly being supported all at the same time.


Don’t bother to wait for an official shadowrun 6, get out there and use much better rules from a plethora of existing games to make the game you want.

[Synner667]

Biggest difference Freudgo, is that magic doesn't exist in reality and therefore anything that happens because of magic is OK. Who's to say what would happen if magic DID come back?

Yah, just keep telling people that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Moirdryd]

You're right Synner there are better rules for SR but most of them are in older versions, hence why people are talking about a Good new edition. Something that is the game people want. Look at the love that originally went into Shadowrun 3®, look at the hope people had for SR5 and the divide that was SR4. The best rule set for Shadowrun has always been Shadowrun, mixing and matching from elsewhere just doesn't tend to hold water.

C'mon chummer, when did you become a cynic? Surely there's some ideas rattling around in there that are wanting to be heard on how SR could and should be?

[Shev]

A reboot is basically a terrible idea. What ever happened to Frank Trollman's Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker? Wasn't that suppose to be the reboot the kills Shadowrun, and that was 7 years ago

Most off-brand products fail. Most fan projects fail. Pretty much every off-brand fan project is doomed to fail from the start. Shit, ever heard of a game called Zwiehander? It was a knockoff for Warhammer Fantasy RPG, a brand that was actually literally dead with no competitors and it STILL failed. (Ironically enough, a new WHFRPG edition is coming out, now.) Never underestimate the power of a brand, it's why SR is still kicking even after massive embezzlement, controversy, and a long string of poorly-edited books.

As an amusing aside, Trollman wrote a lot of 4th ed stuff. He actively disparages the "grognards" for putting the priority system back into the game (hes an unrepentant powergamer, so any character creation option that doesn't let you min to the max is not his favorite). So the idea of rebooting back to 1-3e doesn't really apply to his attempt given that he's firmly a 4e kind of guy.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree. I actually like Shedim as an antagonist-pulling-the-strings, and the 4E events in Denver, and the Dragon Civil War were pretty interesting.

The Shedim are nothing more than knock-off insect spirits. Same style of threat, similar nature of threat. The zombie threat should have had a biological or technological origin, we already have Killer Possession Spirits From Beyond That Want Your Meat! As for the rest...I respect your opinion, but still I reserve the right to call all that stuff garbage.

Also, gritty overpopulated sprawls is where cyberpunk happens. A change of scenery isn't a bad thing, but War! did an awful job of what is already a challenging task. Frankly, if you get tired of you cyberpunk setting in your cyberpunk game, that's more a signal that you maybe need to play another genre to recharge your batteries for a while. I get the same way when I'm playing Star Wars and I start getting tired of the clearly delineated good guys and bad guys: rather than trying to adjust the setting to something it's not just to suit my current hankering, I switch to a genre that scratches that itch as a matter of course.

Don’t bother to wait for an official shadowrun 6, get out there and use much better rules from a plethora of existing games to make the game you want.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to do the job of a game designer in my spare time, man. That's why I pay companies to do it for me. If old age was enough to do in an RPG, DnD would have kicked it years ago. As it is, it's still the strongest brand in the market, and that's BEFORE you account for all the people playing older editions. Seems more than a bit premature to stick a fork in SR and call it done, especially given how popular the setting is. It's just awaiting a company that can do it justice. And in the meantime, why not make a wish list of what you'd like to see?

[binarywraith]

this comes up every time a new edition is boiling in the clone vats.

Just. Let. It. Go.

Shadowrun is xx number of years old, and it shows.

When it came out, cyberpunk was a thing, urban fantasy was a new idea for mainstream games, and almost every system created rules for it,
Now it's mainstream, and its the grandad telling everyone how relevant it is, while shuffling around so no-one gets to look past it and see all the other games that also exist.

It’s old. It's fat. It's confused.

As with software, constantly trying to shoehorn new tech into old devices just doesn't work after a while.

Burn it to the ground, sort out the setting and start again.

Considering other games on the market, does shadowrun 666 [the devil bastard edition] really need a 400 page base rulebook costing $50 ?? Does it really need to be so incomplete that you must buy other sourcebooks just to be able to play it properly ??

Yah, yah, yah. Company profits. Cash Cow. Desperate fans. New editions of old sourcebooks to make money. Etc.

Except now, there are so many unofficial shadowrun conversions, the makers should really be looking at what people are playing and why - and that's from a company with 7 different versions of the same game supposedly being supported all at the same time.


Don’t bother to wait for an official shadowrun 6, get out there and use much better rules from a plethora of existing games to make the game you want.

Honestly, I'm probably just waiting another year and switching bases. Cyberpunk is putting out a new edition of tabletop to coincide with the videogame release, and if it's any good game design wise it will be lightyears ahead of SR at present.

[KCKitsune]

Yah, just keep telling people that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Synner667, if I knew magic was real, then my reason would be either one of three things:

1) "Magic is REAL! That is so cool!"
2) "Magic is REAL! Holy S**T! That means all the BAD THINGS are real too!"
3) Combine 1 & 2 above

I have neither the time nor the inclination to do the job of a game designer in my spare time, man. That's why I pay companies to do it for me. If old age was enough to do in an RPG, DnD would have kicked it years ago. As it is, it's still the strongest brand in the market, and that's BEFORE you account for all the people playing older editions. Seems more than a bit premature to stick a fork in SR and call it done, especially given how popular the setting is. It's just awaiting a company that can do it justice. And in the meantime, why not make a wish list of what you'd like to see?

This is true, and I know I might have to turn in my Shadowrun card and be burned at the stake for heresy, but Starfinder, with some tweaking, can "easily" step in for Shadowrun. I put easily in quotes because the amount of tweaking to bring in something like Essence might be somewhat difficult. Then again there is a d20 conversion of Shadowrun on the Web and if you use the Essence rules from there in Starfinder, then you're pretty good to go.

[binarywraith]

d20 is a terrible system for anything, up to and including D&D, so I can't see it translating to Shadowrun remotely well. Especially Paizo's version of d20.

[Magnaric]

Also, gritty overpopulated sprawls is where cyberpunk happens. A change of scenery isn't a bad thing, but War! did an awful job of what is already a challenging task. Frankly, if you get tired of you cyberpunk setting in your cyberpunk game, that's more a signal that you maybe need to play another genre to recharge your batteries for a while. I get the same way when I'm playing Star Wars and I start getting tired of the clearly delineated good guys and bad guys: rather than trying to adjust the setting to something it's not just to suit my current hankering, I switch to a genre that scratches that itch as a matter of course.

I do the same thing, bit that isn't to say any game only HAS to be one-dimensional, or even limited in atmosphere. D&D doesn't have to only be high fantasy, just as Shadowrun doesn't only have to be gritty cyberpunk all the time. Yes, urban spawls are the easy go-to backdrop for the game, but if that was all it was about then there wouldn't be numerous books on places the the NAN, Amazonia, Tir Tairngire/Tir Na Nog, etc. Sometimes it's nice to change things up for a bit before going back into the familiarity of the genre.

[Iduno]

Granted, the War! book was pretty controversial because of it's rules for battle rifles, Milspec commlinks, etc, but the setting information and tips for Shadowrunners in a Vietnam-style setting were excellent.

Ahahahahaha. Hilarious. The entire troll post was okay, but this sentence is comedy gold.

[freudqo]

d20 is a terrible system for anything, up to and including D&D, so I can't see it translating to Shadowrun remotely well. Especially Paizo's version of d20.

The very idea makes very little sense. Only if you envision shadowrun as the ultimatest pink mohawk setting and only that could you envision to use something as flimsy and ridiculous as d20 for your game mechanics.

[JanessaVR]

d20 is a terrible system for anything, up to and including D&D, so I can't see it translating to Shadowrun remotely well. Especially Paizo's version of d20.

I'm still using D&D 3.5, with Pathfinder mixed in. I love it, and our gaming group still uses it. (For D&D games, not Shadowrun)

[binarywraith]

The very idea makes very little sense. Only if you envision shadowrun as the ultimatest pink mohawk setting and only that could you envision to use something as flimsy and ridiculous as d20 for your game mechanics.

I know. It does combat. Kinda, sorta, if you're interested in playing a wargame with less interesting rules than GW writes for skrimishes. That is the sum total of the d20 toolbox.

Skills exist, but they are a complete afterthought that can usefully be replaced with rock-paper-scissors to handle any non-combat action without a noticeable change in the play of the game.

[freudqo]

I know. It does combat. Kinda, sorta, if you're interested in playing a wargame with less interesting rules than GW writes for skrimishes. That is the sum total of the d20 toolbox.

Let's say that it can do the very specific kind of combat that you'd expect from a D&D game, and that sums it up pretty well. I've always found shadowrun to be quite combat heavy despite what it says on the box. But the kind of abstract ranged and semi-realistic combat it promotes is hundreds of miles aways from what d20 can provide.

[KCKitsune]

If everyone who's poo-pooing d20 is talking about the "I'm down to 1% of my health and I am still kicking ass just like I had full health!" garbage, there is rules for taking penalties to hit/skill check rolls when you're injured. In fact I'll be using them when I start my campaign.

In fact I'm going to be using the variant rules where the attacker makes an attack roll and the defender has to make a defense roll. Armor does not boost your defense roll. It only reduces the amount of damage you take when you get hit.