Tetrachromic vision vs cybereyes, Do cybereye makers not know about this? :( Options

[KCKitsune]

OK, everyone... this is bugging the ever lovin' begeezus out of me!

Why is it that someone with cybernetic eyes has to take up 3 slots in their eyes AND have wireless enabled to get +3 to their perception checks and some bozo who gets tetrachromic vision gets the same bonus without any drawbacks? Oh and it shifts Partial light to Full light... you know... because!

Do the makers of cybereyes not think "You know guys, that tetrachromic vision drek is a big seller with the genemod crowd... maybe we should get into it!" Hell I'm willing to say it takes two slots in a cybereye to install it!

[binarywraith]

A. Wireless bonuses are terribly written as always.

B. Likely the two pieces of 'ware were written by two different writers who have never seen each other's stat lines, and the editor didn't care to sanity check.

[Mantis]

A. Wireless bonuses are terribly written as always.

B. Likely the two pieces of 'ware were written by two different writers who have never seen each other's stat lines, and the editor didn't care to sanity check.

Editor. You're funny. You think this stuff is edited.

[SpellBinder]

Editor. You're funny. You think this stuff is edited.

+1

[KCKitsune]

A. Wireless bonuses are terribly written as always.

B. Likely the two pieces of 'ware were written by two different writers who have never seen each other's stat lines, and the editor didn't care to sanity check.

Thank you! I was hoping it wasn't just me who saw this and went: "WTF?!?"

I completely and utter agree with you about the wireless bonuses. If that's the one thing I hate most about SR5 it's that. The other thing I hate is the nerfing of cyber/bioware. In 4th you got a discount on the 'ware type you had less of. This a BIG deal for everyone (except for the Awakened/Emerged... maybe).

[SpellBinder]

... In 4th you got a discount on the 'ware type you had less of. This a BIG deal for everyone (except for the Awakened/Emerged... maybe).

I know what you mean. I've got some characters in SR4 that are dead in SR5 because of the change in Essence rules. And one of them is (or was, after 2075/01/09) a mystic, too.

And in SR3's Man & Machine there was a general rule on discounting costs on cyberware and bioware based on what other cyberware you had. For example, if you had both of your legs replaced with cyber legs then you got a 20% discount (Essence & ¥) for bone lacing.

Honestly it made sense when dealing with cyberlimbs. The current rules (SR4 & SR5) effectively double tax you in Essence & money if you've got any kind of cyberlimb beyond just a hand or foot and any any kind of full on bodyware (like dermal plating, bone lacing, muscle replacement, etc.). Hell, I'd even give a discount on Move By Wire for a character that's got any full on cyberlimbs.

[KCKitsune]

Honestly it made sense when dealing with cyberlimbs. The current rules (SR4 & SR5) effectively double tax you in Essence & money if you've got any kind of cyberlimb beyond just a hand or foot and any any kind of full on bodyware (like dermal plating, bone lacing, muscle replacement, etc.). Hell, I'd even give a discount on Move By Wire for a character that's got any full on cyberlimbs.

JanessaVR was coming up with House Rules on cyber that were pretty good.

Also, about your statement about Move By Wire... If you had someone replace all their limbs with Cyber, then I'd not only massively discount MBW (Essence wise... it's still going to cost you a pretty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), I would have it get rid of ALL of the negative side effects. I mean, think about it. The main problem with MBW is it put your whole body in seizure and then directed you in a "more efficient manner". If you have both arms and legs replaced with cyber, then I can see MBW not needing to put you into seizure. Your new limbs are already tuned for max performance (especially if you get custom str and agility mods) and the MBW can just have a direct line to the limbs.

[binarywraith]

Editor. You're funny. You think this stuff is edited.

Now I didn't say that. I'm sure there's someone who has the job title, and draws a paycheck at Catalyst, but it's pretty self evident they're actually spending their time doing literally anything but editing.

JanessaVR was coming up with House Rules on cyber that were pretty good.

Also, about your statement about Move By Wire... If you had someone replace all their limbs with Cyber, then I'd not only massively discount MBW (Essence wise... it's still going to cost you a pretty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), I would have it get rid of ALL of the negative side effects. I mean, think about it. The main problem with MBW is it put your whole body in seizure and then directed you in a "more efficient manner". If you have both arms and legs replaced with cyber, then I can see MBW not needing to put you into seizure. Your new limbs are already tuned for max performance (especially if you get custom str and agility mods) and the MBW can just have a direct line to the limbs.

Eh, I always figured the move by wire issue was that eventually your nervous system would build up stress and damage from it. Much less if it goes bad, talk about grand mal seizures until you snap your own spine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[SpellBinder]

JanessaVR was coming up with House Rules on cyber that were pretty good.

Also, about your statement about Move By Wire... If you had someone replace all their limbs with Cyber, then I'd not only massively discount MBW (Essence wise... it's still going to cost you a pretty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), I would have it get rid of ALL of the negative side effects. I mean, think about it. The main problem with MBW is it put your whole body in seizure and then directed you in a "more efficient manner". If you have both arms and legs replaced with cyber, then I can see MBW not needing to put you into seizure. Your new limbs are already tuned for max performance (especially if you get custom str and agility mods) and the MBW can just have a direct line to the limbs.

There's a benefit to MBW in SR4 & SR5 that didn't exist in SR3. It's called an "Off" switch. Ingenious concept, really, should be implemented on many more things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seriously, after SR3 you can deactivate the MBW implant so you can reduce the stress it's placing on your body.

[KCKitsune]

There's a benefit to MBW in SR4 & SR5 that didn't exist in SR3. It's called an "Off" switch. Ingenious concept, really, should be implemented on many more things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seriously, after SR3 you can deactivate the MBW implant so you can reduce the stress it's placing on your body.

Yeah, an off switch is a good idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I also think my idea of discounting MBW if you have all 4 limbs replace with cyber is also a good idea.

[JanessaVR]

JanessaVR was coming up with House Rules on cyber that were pretty good.

Just FYI, those rules are here.

[hermit]

In 4th you got a discount on the 'ware type you had less of. This a BIG deal for everyone (except for the Awakened/Emerged... maybe).

But that was too much math to handle for the average Shadowrun player. So it was scrapped just before publication in one of Hardy's "I can do it because I'm the boss" edits. Move fast and break things!

[KCKitsune]

But that was too much math to handle for the average Shadowrun player. So it was scrapped just before publication in one of Hardy's "I can do it because I'm the boss" edits. Move fast and break things!

Wow! Hardy must think gamers as COMPLETE idiots!

I mean how hard is it tally up your Bio/Cyberware and then say "Which one of these is lower?" At that point you divide the lower part by 2 and that's how much of an Essence discount you got.

[SpellBinder]

Wow! Hardy must think gamers as COMPLETE idiots!

I mean how hard is it tally up your Bio/Cyberware and then say "Which one of these is lower?" At that point you divide the lower part by 2 and that's how much of an Essence discount you got.

It is rather hard when when they're equal. When you've got 1 point in cyber and 1 point in bio, which do you choose? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But just check the math for biocompatibility and cyber/bioware grades in SR5 (calculate 10% of 0.5 for Deltaware, subtract that 10%, and then round that number down to the nearest tenth instead of Multiplier -0.1 and go), or how the mental attributes are handled for true elementals in Forbidden Arcana. For those elementals it's Force minus half Force (rounded down); they apparently couldn't just say that the spirit's mental attributes were half Force (rounded up), but I guess they're into the current American math of excessive calculation steps.

[KCKitsune]

It is rather hard when when they're equal. When you've got 1 point in cyber and 1 point in bio, which do you choose? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But just check the math for biocompatibility and cyber/bioware grades in SR5 (calculate 10% of 0.5 for Deltaware, subtract that 10%, and then round that number down to the nearest tenth instead of Multiplier -0.1 and go), or how the mental attributes are handled for true elementals in Forbidden Arcana. For those elementals it's Force minus half Force (rounded down); they apparently couldn't just say that the spirit's mental attributes were half Force (rounded up), but I guess they're into the current American math of excessive calculation steps.

If you got exactly one point of Bio and one point of Cyber... then whatever your character wants more of (cyber or bio), the other type gets the discount.

RE the current American math: ... I looked at that garbage and it makes NO sense. No wonder why Asians are kicking our hoops up and down the block! Also, I've said this to my friends and coworkers, but I truly and honestly believe that NORTH KOREA has a better cyber warfare force than the US. While Koreans are going through hardcore Computer Science training, our "special snowflake" college kids are arguing about who is allowed to use which restroom... and racking up HUMONGOUS student loans getting worthless degrees doing so.

[binarywraith]

Without going into a further derail, you're ranting about the difference between a technical/trade school education (teaching a job) and a college education that requires a grounding in general education and the humanities as well as technical training.

They're different curriculum entirely, and have different pros and cons.

[KCKitsune]

Without going into a further derail, you're ranting about the difference between a technical/trade school education (teaching a job) and a college education that requires a grounding in general education and the humanities as well as technical training.

They're different curriculum entirely, and have different pros and cons.

True. I should not have brought it up and I apologize. I'm going to drop this whole line right now before I have the mods looking at this thread and saying "Time to break out the ban hammer."

----------------------------------

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: Is there anything else that makes anyone sit up and go, "Hey! WAIT A COTTON PICKIN' MINUTE!"

To me, it's the price of Decks. Talk about having something so vital to your character "class" (Decker) able to be fragged with by a lucky roll and you're SOL with no ability to do your main role in the party. At least with SR4 you could buy a replacement commlink for 8000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and an afternoon worth of work. Sure it was bare bones with a response of 4, and signal 5, but it still worked.

[SpellBinder]

If you got exactly one point of Bio and one point of Cyber... then whatever your character wants more of (cyber or bio), the other type gets the discount.

Hence the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe I should've used (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) instead.

But for the new question at hand, can't really say without dredging up a whole lot of stuff that's been said and said again repeatedly. But I'll choose one little point and it's the mysterious +2 to the living persona stats that NPC technomancers like Mega Pulse (from the SR5 book's character creation section) or Sam (NPC from the first Chicago mission) get but PC technomancers are denied.

[KCKitsune]

Hence the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe I should've used (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) instead.

But for the new question at hand, can't really say without dredging up a whole lot of stuff that's been said and said again repeatedly. But I'll choose one little point and it's the mysterious +2 to the living persona stats that NPC technomancers like Mega Pulse (from the SR5 book's character creation section) or Sam (NPC from the first Chicago mission) get but PC technomancers are denied.

NPC Technomancers benefit from the mysterious power of "THE PLOT COMPELS YOU!!!" rather than anything more concrete. I've never played a technomancer, nor do I think I ever will.

If I were to play a Matrix specialist I would play either a Physical Adept with the power points shaped to helping me in the Matrix, or a Decker with just enough cyberware to make me not useless in a fire fight.

[hermit]

It is rather hard when when they're equal. When you've got 1 point in cyber and 1 point in bio, which do you choose? wink.gif

It doesn't matter? You lose 1,5 Essence either way. And it's not like you'll get uture discounts that way.

Also, I've said this to my friends and coworkers, but I truly and honestly believe that NORTH KOREA has a better cyber warfare force than the US.

I wouldn't say that. Like the IT industry (and, really, any industry reliant on educated workers) in Anglo countries in general, the NSA and similar agencies know the value of immigrants.

To me, it's the price of Decks. Talk about having something so vital to your character "class" (Decker) able to be fragged with by a lucky roll and you're SOL with no ability to do your main role in the party. At least with SR4 you could buy a replacement commlink for 8000 nuyen.gif, and an afternoon worth of work. Sure it was bare bones with a response of 4, and signal 5, but it still worked.

The price of the decks is one thing, but its only part of what makes me sit up: The way the system punishes mundanes. Not only by price (from the ludicrous pricing of cyberware and decks to universal hackability and the implications of sneaking without stealth attributes) but also by enforcing a power creep among mages with more and more powerful options in literally every book, while mundanes get next to nothing that compares.

Of course, magic is easier to write and requires a lot less skill to avoid reality checks - you can make magic do anything without someone popping up and saying "hey, that is not how physics work!". Which brings me to the worst part of Shadowrun under Hardy - low quality, lazy writing, and pure arrogance on part of many authors when either is pointed out.

[Sengir]

I mean how hard is it tally up your Bio/Cyberware and then say "Which one of these is lower?" At that point you divide the lower part by 2 and that's how much of an Essence discount you got.

It got hard with Essence holes, you had to keep a seperate tally of bioware and cyberware holes or get absurd results. And before that you had the bio index, aka. the rules abuse highscore.

Just like complains about "snowflakes" by people from the generation which was subject to the same claim in their youth or moral panics about youth culture in general, bioware rules seem to be a generation thing. What we have right now is always horrible, back in my day everything was great (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JanessaVR]

Of course, magic is easier to write and requires a lot less skill to avoid reality checks - you can make magic do anything without someone popping up and saying "hey, that is not how physics work!". Which brings me to the worst part of Shadowrun under Hardy - low quality, lazy writing, and pure arrogance on part of many authors when either is pointed out.

Dearly wish it was back under FASA's roof. And then we'd get official links to Earthdawn back as well. Double win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

OK everyone, since I was the original person to start this thread I can necro this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now what does everyone think would be fair rules to have a cyber version of this? I mean it SHOULD be easier to install this in cybereyes than a genemod.

[SpellBinder]

In the ideal of "game balance" I'd make the cybernetic tetrachromatic vision mod be 0.4 Essence, 6 Capacity, 16 Availability, and ¥20,000 for all the same benefits as the geneware version. This puts it as bigger, bulkier, harder to get, and more costly than a rating 3 Vision Enhancement vision mod and Lowlight Vision; you're paying an extra cost for the benefit of not having to have it wirelessly enabled to get the benefits, or knock the price down to ¥15,000 and add the wireless requirement to get the Perception bonus.

In a more practical mindset I'd probably just with 0.1 Essence, 3 Capacity, 14 Availability, and ¥14,000 for it, which puts it as slightly harder to get and a little more costly than a rating 3 Vision Enhancement mod & hang the wireless bulldrek for the +3 Perception bonus and other benefits of the geneware, including actually seeing the ultraviolet wavelength in full.

Now in the tradition of the differences between cyberware vs. bioware & geneware, you could also go with 0.2 Essence, 3 Capacity; 7 Availability, and ¥4,000 for it since basic cyberware has traditionally been cheaper and easier to get yet harder on Essence than bioware & geneware. But then why bother with getting a Low Light and Vision Enhancement mods in your cybereyes when they cost more than three times as much as a single Tetrachromatic mod?

[Titan]

SpellBinder beat me to it mostly.

The lil' engineer in me says that it is relatively easy - if not expensive - to just alter basic cybereyes.

But then the game balance side of me tells me it has to cost essence / capacity, or else the whole system starts to collapse. Beyond that, I can't do better than SpellBinder.