 [ShadowsOfEurope] Reviews, Let's hear what you think... |
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 Aug 4 2004, 11:54 PM
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#251
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514  |
I'm going to have your babies. No really. :) |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:42 AM
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#252
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I think Skeptical meant "_personally_ interact with runners" and in hindsight he'd be correct. SoE doesn't imply that of Spinrad personally (the reason for my mistake should be evident in a few more days). It is however mentioned in several places that many among the aristos, politicos and corporate crowd (like Spinrad's pal Emanuel Salles) have direct dealings with the shadows and underworld. This long? You're slipping Kage ;) A guy puts all that work into a bad pun... |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:44 AM
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#253
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'm sure Kage got it right away. Kanada is just a bit slower.
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Aug 5 2004, 12:48 AM
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#254
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I played the old game a while back, then had a gap of not playing, and a few years back I began again. We've played a variety of campaigns, and I know what I like.
The writing style of some of the newer books is kind of bland to me, but I don't think that's it. Format wise, as I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of the "Shadowrunner writes an essay and then other shadowrunners agree with him, except for Random Whacky Guy who says it's all wrong" format. It's not universal mind you, but a general trend in material for a decent time.
I'm 31 now, SR was what, 89? So, I guess if your curios, I must be relic? :) |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:48 AM
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#255
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
My bad, I've been pulling too many late nights with this thread. Nice to see ya back Kanada. I'll have some mail for you tomorrow at the latest.
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Aug 5 2004, 01:15 AM
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#256
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
You know what? I'll buy that for a dollar! I do belive you've hit the nail on the head. I couldn't really figure out why they were bland but you've got it.
Nope! I long for the days when I was 31. Ok. Actually 25-28 but that's neither here nor there. So you were 16 when you 1st got involved. I was 27. I don't know if we can draw any conclusions from that but there it is to muse over.
Your experience is similar to mine. I stopped playing, ohhh, just before Super Tuesday or shortly after. I never bought it. I started playing again August of last year. And while I've noticed some differences it still seams like Shadowrun to me. Thanos |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:32 AM
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#257
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
It was a spelling joke, you mispelled Curious. Though, since 30 is the Hill, technically I am now Old. You might be Ancient though, that's a given. :)
I never actually stopped buying stuff. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'm an SR Completionist and I've bought nearly everything. My real life game group splintered, and it was a while before I got into online gaming. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:42 AM
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#258
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
I'm 24. I started playing when I was 13. My gaming development has sort of moved in reverse of Shadowrun's; I used to run games like it was Final Fantasy or something, and I was interested in Big Themes and Powerful People and runners who Shaped the World. But over the years I've really grown out of that; I realized it fed my conceit more than it amused my players. More than that, I just got tired of plot, and more interested in character. Plus, I developed a keener appreciation for the stylistic elements of Shadowrun that I just didn't get when I was younger. Plot is great and all, it keeps things moving, but my biggest kick as a gamemaster is watching characters react to what's happening, and to each other. Particularly when the unexpected occurs.
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Aug 5 2004, 02:03 AM
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#259
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
To take the thread wildly off topic. Variety is the spice of life. Not all my runs are super heavy on plot. Not all of the are serious. Some are horror themed some are just run and gun. I like to mix it up. Some are ragged clothes in the barrens. Some are formal were at a corporate mixer. Thanos P.S. I didn't miss spell curious. Spell check did :) |
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Aug 5 2004, 02:10 AM
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#260
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom) Member No.: 1,446 |
It also implies that the internal comunications of most corps might be tagged. So it's forced, due to common paranoia, that the line of middlemen be short, based on trusted people. Spinrad himself? Maybe not, but maybe his left hand, or someone close enough to be trusted but not traced... |
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Aug 5 2004, 03:05 AM
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#261
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
Excuses excuses :P For my old campaign, most of the published adventure's I used were from Call of Cthulhu. It was actually easier to convert the 1920's adventures to SR then it was the Modern ones, simply because the 90's stuff was more tech focused. |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:56 AM
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#262
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
I'm pretty sure in the long way, everyone will lose. But to debate this, you need to define the long way, because it's not the same thing for us, for the small and big players in SR's world, and for a dragon.
Yes.
Definitely, yes. The point is, what you like is your own business, you may be a minority over a specific issue. Here, of course there is a lot of anti-Lofwyr people, way before SoE or even the star of EuroSB I've always thought a lot of people in Europe would hate Lofwyr, mainly blue collar workers and policlubs, sometimes backed (for good or not so good reasons) by corporate and politic assets. And of course Lofwyr will lose from time to time. Again, define losing. Is it a personnal setback ? A personnal confrontation ? I don't think so, some pieces here and here (as in Technobabel, good demo about where Lofwyr really stands in a personnal powerplayer point of view) demonstrate the opposite. But that doesn't mean he won't loose some billions here and here, some asset, ang regain other, and loose others, and regain others... as any powerplayers, any corporate entity... well anyone in fact.
Making him more complex ? Less absolute ? More machiavel maybe, he doesn't mark time as we do, we don't know all the in and out of his so-call "setbacks". |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:02 PM
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#263
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Lofwyr will lose.
Where losing is defined as taking a few more years, maybe as much as a decade or two, to accomplish what he wants to. ~J |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:34 PM
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#264
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Clearly, someone hasn't been watching the same Star Wars movies as me. And losing is generally defined as "not winning." If he wins in 20 years, or wins in 1, that's not "losing." Of course, everyone has setbacks, but Lofwyr's defining trait, the main thing that made him interesting, was that even his setbacks seemed to turn into victories. Lately the attitude seems to be that he's "just another dragon." Yeah, that's really making him more interesting. |
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Aug 5 2004, 06:51 PM
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#265
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And Irony is generally defined as "The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. " ~J |
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Aug 5 2004, 07:40 PM
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#266
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Sheesh, then take a note from Voce and use a smiley to indicate the irony! It's not the easier tone to convey online. :P
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Aug 5 2004, 07:43 PM
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#267
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Well, I don't understand what's so difficult about it. It's not like I've ever made a mistake on that.
~J [edit] ;) |
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Aug 5 2004, 09:18 PM
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#268
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
Darth Vader's backstory could be interesting. It's just that the current braindump from Lucas on the matter has not been very well written, directed, or acted....you picked a bad example. |
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Aug 5 2004, 09:53 PM
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#269
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Perhaps. But I'm not sure what kind of prequels would have really added to the character in any necessary way. Darth Vader of the original trilogy is as pure and excellent an example of a movie character as any; perhaps an interesting story could be told about him outside the context, but it really couldn't add much to what is already an impressive creation.
It's not a DEEP character, of course, but Star Wars was never intended to be deep. |
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Aug 6 2004, 04:12 PM
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#270
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 379 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Earth Member No.: 1,274 |
Getting off topic again guys (even if Darth is a great character by just his visual appearance. Its the old rule of familiarity breeds contempt. The more you learn the less mystique and impact the character has.)
Anyhow, back to SoE and the Shadows Of Whereever formats. I'll agree that there is less overall energy and a lacking of the vibrancy that originally appeared in the 1st Ed books. But that's because the focus of these new sourcebooks has changed. The original books had more space for incidental "fluff" and also the fact that everyuthing was new. There was a large open slate to create and fill in the gaps left by the rulebook. With the recent Shadows of books we have had to severely limit the information to what is relevant to the current countries and also incorporate as much of the pre-written canon as possible as well as include a touch-up on the current events that have shaped the last ten game years. Not an easy prospect. Unfortunatley there is no room to include all the street level details as we would have liked to. That is where the Gamemaster is free to create there own flesh. to build upon the bones and skeleton of what we have provided. |
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Aug 6 2004, 04:18 PM
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#271
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But that's the problem. It's like the dinosaur dilemma. We can recreate bits of skeleton that are missing with at least a halfway decent probability of it approaching accuracy, but since we don't have any flesh whatsoever we can't do more than wildly guess at colour, texture, etc.
We don't want the whole beast, but some scraps of flesh are sorely needed. ~J, hyperextender of simile |
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Aug 6 2004, 05:35 PM
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#272
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
If a "Shadows of..." style book can't provide enough information to run a campaign in the provided locations, then the Shadows format is a bad format, and somebody needs to go back to the drawing board. There are countries that seem decent and possible to run in (Switzerland, Netherlands). It's a crying shame that more space wasn't dedicated to them, instead of chapters for nations that are either unrunnable (Tir na nOg) or chapters that barely even detail the country they are allegedly about (Italian States).
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Aug 6 2004, 09:57 PM
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#273
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Again this is a matter of opinion and gaming style. I've counted half a dozen people on this subforum alone who don't agree with you and will be running adventures and campaigns based on SoE. This isn't to say SoE doesn't have its flaws, it does (I've yet to see a sourcebook that doesn't) however what you percieve as too broad a picture and not enough detail others percieve as just the right amount of background to liberally adapt to the feel and style of their campaigns. Mileage varies and though you obviously aren't pleased a head count of those who've done reviews and voiced opinions places you in the minority (even if it is of a non-representative, which btw I don't actually believe is true). Ultimately the true issue here is whether other format alternatives would have been as commerically viable - either Target: style books oncentrating on only 3-4 countries/locations or single country/city books and would they give players the bigger picture of the Sixth World they have been demanding (and believe me FanPro would not be putting out these books if there hadn't been a demand for more information on the Sixth World. Then there's also the issue of trying to second guess what the audience might want in a more limited format when the audience really has no idea of what concepts are going into a country. For instance an obvious alternative would have been a Target: Europe book with London, Paris, Berlin and Amsterdam/Europort. Cool. Might even sell. But why not Rome/Vatican? What not Zurich? Why not Lisbon? All of those have IMHO huge potential and because they lack canon you can even introduce entirely new stuff. Where do you draw the line? Where do you set the balance? The "Shadows of..." format allows for the broader picture at the expense of the details that gamemasters normally prefer to control anyway. It offers not just adventure seeds and background but players and agendas that can generate multiple runs and plots depending on how the GM choses to use them. But more importantly it leaves the door open for further development. Now that they know the essentials, if people want more then further material becomes more plausible. If there's enough demand a Target book detailing particular areas might be in order, or a track campaign book developing the major plots in SoE to name just a couple of possibilities.
Once again you really should but an IMO in there somewhere, because while this may be your opinion others obviously disagree - case in point at least one person on this forum's said they want to set a whole campaign in Italy... |
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Aug 6 2004, 10:34 PM
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#274
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Why do I need to put a qualifier? I think opinions are pretty obvious... and I'd never put IMHO, because my opinions obviously aren't humble. 8) Besides, opinions matter, obviously, because these are the opinions of people who buy Shadowrun books.
Plus, I don't even think what you're objecting to is a matter of opinion. I count about eleven pages of text in the Italy chapter, and a full five of them are focused on Church matters. Thus, I stand by it as basically true. Anyway, someone might very well run a campaign in Italy. But they basically have to do all the work themselves (since it's not really the Italy chapter, but the Church chapter.) As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of buying a location book is so that you have locational information. The way to choose just a couple locations is easy: Someone who is in charge of the line takes proposals, finds the most interesting, and develops those. The "Target" style format obviously hasn't sold poorly in the past, since they've produced nearly half a dozen of them. You may ask, "Why not X?", but people are going to do that anyway. You could detail every major city on the planet, and someone would be asking "Why not Dusseldorf?" So saying that people would ask for more isn't much of an excuse. Even SoE doesn't actually cover all the nations of europe. I would've liked to see Greece, for example, but that isn't a mark against SoE. The issue of format isn't the ONLY problem I have with the book, but it's certainly one of them. There is indeed a demand for information about other locations, but let's face it, the Shadowrun production schedule has been abysmal for years. We're hungry for ANY crumbs tossed our way. |
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Aug 7 2004, 12:29 AM
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#275
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
The Netherlands interested me (maybe just because it had lower case van's :) but there's barely anything there, so I don't see what use that chapter is really. It was well written though, IMO.
But, Tir na nOg and London, like Tir Tairngire before them (in SoNA) seemed to dislike the earlier material, and focus on the organizations to dismantle the previous information. Not only are they useless to me, but they actually try to sabotage what I liked about the previous nations. (Even if Tir na nOg was not a good setting for runners, it was an enjoyable read.) But IMO, that's just my opinion, which I think is the correct opinion, as it's mine. :) |
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