[ShadowsOfEurope] Reviews, Let's hear what you think... Options

[Synner]

The importance of using IMO or any other conditional when referring to something like this is to avoid generalizations and underlining that what you're posting is subjective. Why? Simply because while it is obvious that your opinion is simply one of many, what is not obvious is how generalized it is and to what extent their "subjectiveness". In this case at least the opinions being expressed while entirely valid and "correct" to their authors are obviously in the minority (of posters). Same goes for using descriptors like using "people" instead of "some people" being obviously misleading when making a pronouncement. And to be perfectly correct all you can honestly say is that "this is the opinion of one person who buys SR books" - others can then agree or disagree with you.

It was a suggestion and no more than that. Do what you like, its a (moderately) free forum.

Regarding Italy, I won't get into it here, but I will refer you to my reply on the relevant thread and the opinions of other people therein. While many agree with you that the Italian material provides too broad a view of the subnations, the vast majority (so far) have said they are pleased with the material allocated to the Church in that context. If I can't please everyone, and the best I can hope for is to please the majority of the readers then I'm pretty happy with the reaction so far.

VoceNostrum - You are correct as to the material in London and TNO. Although I'd like to underline something very clearly. Regarding the UK particularly, all the potential writers - natives like 80% of SOE writers - of the chapter (and the UK went through a looong line of them during the EuroSB period) were all for revamping the UK setting significantly from what is in London and doing away with what was there in the first place. While you obviously liked it (and personally I enjoyed it too), the vast majority of readers -especially Brit ones - (opinions sampled online, at conventions and in stores) while they liked the atmosphere clearly disliked the Thatcher Age-inspired setting and institutions don't share your views. There's a reason London was never reprinted.
So instead of sweeping canon elements of the setting under the rug, the final writers opted to give players the chance to decide whether they want to keep the regime (and the NDM, etc) or not, and influence events by taking sides in the current situation. Whether you agree with this or not, what I do know is that I got 12 mails from a UK RPG mailing list congratulating me on the contents of the chapter on the first week it hit British stores and a couple of posts by Brit DSF members. I'm hoping to see more reviews of the UK here soon, to gauge American reactions but so far I believe you're a minority in the potential audience.

[Skeptical Clown]

I consider the minority and majority of posters in this forum fairly unimportant. There are only a handful of people posting in this thread, and only a handful more posting in the SoE forum at large. Hardly representative of the Shadowrun community at large, I'm sure. Our arguments should be evaluated on their individual merits, and not on some appeal to the masses.

[Synner]

Which is why stating using conditionals is relevant and important. At most you are stating your personal opinion, if not then you back it up with a reference for that belief.

In this particular case you've stated your disappointment with Italian chapter and with the fact that you believe it actually isn't enough to play a campaign there. Since I'm not at liberty from debating that point directly with my opinion, simply because I wrote the damn chapter, I am forced to point out that other people's opinions patently differ from yours on a number of the points you made regarding that chapter. Even acknowledging that Forum posters are not representative of the wider community (purely for the purpose of this discussion since I don't agree with you), then one must acknowledge that one way to evaluate the merit of an opinion is by opposing it with another (equally valid one).

You say the Church section is excessive or unnecessary, somebody else says that it is appropriate in context. You say bad, someone else says good. Which is more valid or relevant? Which has more merit?

Assuming equal value, I pointed you towards the Italy thread simply because several people agreed with you on the fact that areas of Italy are barely sketched in, but most of those people are comfortable with the fact that a trade off was needed to include the Church (within the limits of the format) and that the Church was a necessary addition in the overall European context. Though my opinion is void, because I was the writer, I will say those are my sentiments exactly.

Had the book allowed even a half a dozen more pages I would have gone into further detail on Sicily, Naples and Central Republics. As it is I believe I've covered all the basics. The atmosphere and feel for the country, check. The major players including some name dropping, check. The underworld movers-and-shakers, check. Relevant agendas, check. Some unique elements, check.

Does it have the name of the nightclubs in the shady parts of Rome? No. Does it have the best fixers in town? No. But none of that is essential to playing in the country. ie. Does it have the people who'll be hiring the fixers hiring the runners and those people's relevant personal, political and economic agendas? Yes.

[VoceNoctum]

Sinner> It really comes down to with so little space, deciding what was wasted space and what wasn't. The UK chapter by itself surely wouldn't have enough room to rewrite the UK Setting, so an attempt shouldn't have been wasted on it IMO. All the detail work that went into the earlier books can't be matched by a 10 page section, true, but SoE doesn't actually present enough on the countries (UK, Tir) to make them useful alone. So, having that 10 pages try to invalidate the previous material doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

And, the country books written by their own countries usually try to Out Uber each other, so perhaps they shouldn't get to write their own stuff? :)

[otaku mike]

Yawn...
Can't we agree to disagree? This thread is a gigantic headache going nowhere.
Points have been made, counterarguments given. Surely this is enough to satisfy both parties.

[Sepherim]

I'm with Otaku Mike on this one. Seems like no one is willing to change their POVs (which is completely acceptable), so there's no point in continuing with this. We wanted critics. Well, those are one, and probably an important one. Wether it's right or not is an issue we probable won't be able to settle, so maybe it's time to move to the next point.

[Skeptical Clown]

Actually, I don't think I said that I dislike the Italy section because I don't like the Church stuff. I don't care for the Church stuff really, but I know some people do. What irks me is that, while all the chapters are thin on information, the Italy Chapter is especially thin, since half of it is devoted to just one small aspect of the country. So I can't really establish an opinion on Italy itself, as I don't have much of a frame of reference.

On the other hand, I guess it's the only chapter that actually gives a lot of information on a specific subject, so I can't complain too much ;)

Anyway, I post because I keep seeing things to talk about. If it runs out of things to reply to, I'll shut up.

[Kanada Ten]

Yeah, one of the advantages of covering the Church (despite using a nation's chapter to do it) is that the Vatican has influence far beyond the borders of the Papal States and fits well within the theme of "Shadows of Europe" - that is the interconnections and conflicts between the forces in the Old World, and how that affects the Shadowverse.

[VoceNoctum]

[SiM]

We're still hoping that the thread returns to it's original function: reviews of SoE.

[otaku mike]

[VoceNoctum]

[otaku mike]

We wrote the French chapter (Corporations was by NMAth, Brittany was by Namergon, and everything else by me).

[VoceNoctum]

[L.D]

I've read most of the book by now and I have one major problem: There's not enough pages for each country. It seems to be about 10 pages per country/chapter (it varies from chapter to chapter and some describe more than one country) and to me that's not enough. I'd have wanted at least five more pages per country/chapter. I'm probably in minority (or maybe even quite alone) but I would have loved to see it split into two separate books (like the NAN-books) and then you could have gotten some more info about the countries not covered by chapters in SoE. A lot of places are mentioned in just one sentence and that's just teasing.

I also miss maps of cities.

Otherwise it's good.

[Synner]

Well, I think I'm speaking for all the writers in saying we would all have liked to have another 5 pages to work with. But those are the constraints of the format. I seriously doubt a 480 page book with a price tag of 50$ would be as commercially viable and breaking it up into multiple books dilutes the points of interest and potential buyers for each... as to the countries not covered, don't despair they might still get a visit in future sourcebooks.

All that being said some SoE tie-in material will continue to feature in upcoming FanPro books... and there are plans afoot to release some of the unpublished material (mid-term) as an unofficial web supplement.

[Snow_Fox]

With the chuirch being borught up in Italy, I think it was needed, beyond the churches influence in that country, remember it is also a major player in France, Spain, Portugal and Poland. It's development in "Italy" ties together those elements in the book and saves them from being disparate items. Add on that it plays a role in the resistance in Tir Na Nog and Aztlan and could be an element with the Huk in the Philipine, it would have been conspicuous by it's absence.

[Cereberus_Nacht]

The nail-chewing is over! Someday my local comics&games shopkeep will have his distributor bring things on time, and on that day, the world shall spin backward.

I'm not quite finished, but I can say I like what I've read so far. I was a little apprehensive before ("Are they going to do a good job? Oh, please pleeeeese let them do a good job! I want a good book!!") but I had an idea about the writers, so I was tentatively optimistic.

I am happy with this book as an overview. There are of course things I would have liked to see - city maps, more details on about half of the countries, I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said - but I realise that for that level of detail I'd love to see, each country would need its own book. For all that everything must have been pruned more than a bonsai tree, there is enough here to make this one of the best setting books I've read in a while.

I was especially impressed by the section on Poland, the handling of the Vatican, and the way history has not been discarded in the face of magic and ubertech. I also like how well magic was subtley integrated into things. All in all, very believable. It gives a lot of good directions, and the rest we'll have to fill in with research and creativity, and maybe some interesting online suppliments. *wink*

I overheard my GM (not currently running a SR campaign) say she wasn't bothering with NA anymore now that she has this book, and I can't say I'm unhappy!

[audun]

[Method]

I like the cover art A LOT. I think its one of the best covers I've seen in a long, long damn time. I think SR needs more of that kind of gritty realism in its artwork.

[Synner]

[otaku mike]

you forgot the bit about the congratulations for the work done, but it's a very good translation.
Well, translating is your real job after all :)

[Rajaat99]

I've read about half and I love it so far. It's wonderful.

[Kagetenshi]

Having just started it, I do have to say that the straightforward reference to Synner was rather more jarring than I'd initially assumed it would be. On the other hand, for the vast number of non-DSF players, it's a nonissue.

~J

[TW]

There's not that much said on the german forums about SoE, really. There were some complaints about the maps (some graphic resolutions error occured with the translated version of the book), but in general, few people posted their opinion on the book yet. Oh, yeah, and the AGS chapter of course is nothing but a recap of DidS2 :S ('just kiddin')

@Ceberus Nacht: that is indeed a huge compliment to us authors. Thanx a lot!