[ShadowsOfEurope] Reviews, Let's hear what you think... Options

[Zen Shooter01]

Regionalism and nationalism are big issues because they provide an excuse for shadowruns. For example, this would not have worked out very well as a chapter:

Everyone appreciates everyone else here on a deeply human level, and no one wants what anyone else has.

Besides, you need nationalist issues because if you'd just stuck to the old megacorporate rivalries it wouldn't have been anything new.

Actually, the Europe of SOE reminds me of real-world Europe from 1918 to 1939. You know...half time.

Now that I've read the book more closely, I'm irritated by it's vagueness. I couldn't find any actual dates for the Jihad in the overview. I think that, while a list of Vatican orders would have been too space-consuming, the lack of a simple heirarchy chart is a serious lapse. The Pope is the big boss, the cardinals are his cabinet, archbishops, then bishops, etc. It's odd that that was left out while the NEEC's organization is gone over in superfine detail.

Also, the United Nations still exists, but we can't even get a list of security council members, or even veto members. What good is knowing that there is a United Nations if I don't know who's on it and what it does?

[Zen Shooter01]

Oh, I'm excited to hear that an Arab world book is being considered. I look forward to that.

[Skeptical Clown]

In my opinion, drifiting from a focus on shadowrunners is emblematic of everything that's wrong with Shadowrun today. The game is ABOUT Shadowrunners. There might be Big Things going on in the world, but the Shadowrunners are just a small part of it, and those Big Events are just background noise to them, just like they are to most people in the world. I don't care about the personal goals of megacorporate CEOs. What does that have to do with me as a player? What does it have to do with my players when I'm GM? Absolutely nothing. Sure, there are big players that have an effect on the campaign, but they're in the background. My players are never going to meet the local mayor, let alone Damien Knight or Lofwyr. So why do I need entire chapters, entire BOOKS, devoted to information that's really never going to be more than a footnote to my games?

The more I read Shadows of Europe, the more I'm disheartened by the lack of anything that really has to do with shadowrunners. Sure, there's lots of 'stuff' in there that could be used as adventure springboards... some of it interesting. But do I really need a thirty dollar book full of snippets of vague ideas? If I did, I'd much rather have Blood in the Boardroom, which cut to the chase and gave real adventure seeds.

I guess that's why I look forward to D&D books these days, far more than Shadowrun books. It didn't used to be that way. But every D&D book, even the mediocre ones, have at least something that's of practical use to me. They're formulaic, but they get the job done.

Oh, and another thing occurs to me as I read SoE... "History repeats itself, first as Tragedy, then as Farce."

[Dax]

To be honest, I completely agree with Synner and MYSTIC on this issue. Yes, Shadowrunners exist. Yes they are used by the corps to make their lives easier. But, the SINless population is outnumbered by the SIN posessing population by a very large margin.

The fact is that the Shadowrun world will continue to go on and do what it does with or without Runners. The combined governments of the world should exist. Its been established in cannon that the Corps like having governments exist. It keeps them from having to deal with all the breurocratic BS that they would have to convern themselves with if the governments either didn't exist, or were to weak to accomplish anything.

I, for one, want a more realistic world. What I've always liked about Shadowrun is the fact that its one of the most detailed and complex settings I've delt with in my RPG experiance. The more realisitc the game is, the more I can get into it.

So, lets all enjoy the fact that the governments are around. They are just one more possible client for the Shadowy types.

[Skeptical Clown]

But Shadowrun WOULDN'T exist without the shadowrunners and dregs of society. That's why it's called Shadowrun.

Anyway, I've read a lot more. Like Shadows of America, it's disappointingly a book that won't leave my shelf much. It's been an interesting read, but ultimately, it's useless for consulting if I need detailed information about a location.

[Dax]

To be honest Skep, I think your missing the point of these recent books. They're more like

"Here's whats happeneing in the real world. Here are how they tie into the shadows and dregs of society. (At least in a minor way.) The rest is up to you."

They aren't concerned with giving the extreme focused view of what runners are like anymore. We've had plenty of books that have done just that over the years, and I belive that the point has been rather well established.

So, lets get the rest of the world fleshed out. Fill in all those gaps that have been in the world for years. I for one think that its about time stuff like this has been done. But that is just my opinion.

[Skeptical Clown]

I thought it was obvious I did understand it, and disagreed with it entirely.

[Thanos007]

[Snow_Fox]

I'm joining in with Dax and Synner. The SB shows us the world, who the mover and shakers are. It's up to the GM to sort out what runners are going to do.

In France you've got various noble houses (ok I wish there had been something on the wine industry, but I won't whine.) In Italy you've got city states vs church and then further divide up the church with waring, secretly, factions.
The irish situation with anti-elven groups who don't get on with each other etc. All of which give much more room for role playing than just corp vs corp.

and yes I like the part on Brittany. Ethnically it is Celtic, not Frankish so there is something good about it being set aside. Now about the family I'd like to drop in the mist....(Dad was from Brittany, mom swears that's where I get my stubborn streak from.)

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Prospero]

Crimsondude 2.0: Sounds like what you need is a big book of rules with no title and a couple of vague refrences to what the rules are actually governing. Sort of nihilist rping. I mean, if you don't want to know what the world is about, why buy any of the setting books (as opposed to the rule books, which have little to no setting)? Don't people buy setting books for the setting that someone has sat down and thought out over many hours so that you and I, who might not have so much time to do just that, can benefit? And the beauty of having that info in an IC document is that it can be true or false, a deliberate smoke-screen or a pure lie, and there can be more that is totally omitted. And it all works.

For me, M¥$T1C hit it on the head - the SR world should be like a movie set in motion: even if the characters never interact with any given part of it, that part should have its own life. The set should work even if the characters aren't there, as I think he said. Because that adds to the life of that parts which the runners do interact with. Maybe your runners will never, ever make it to the UK. But having a UK in the Shadowrun world to draw background from is really valuable. Everything outside of Seattle didn't just drop off the map and even if your characters never go there, it might influence them where they are. And even if it doesn't, it's there and can be brought in even just as flavor - a contact from there, or a PC who spent summers there in his childhood, whatever.

Now I do, personally, generally dislike uber-power runs. I agree with Skeptical Clown on that. I don't want my character to deal with dragons directly (well, with perhaps a few exceptions), I don't want him to meet Villiers or Daviar or anybody like that. But every run has - or can have - a million whys and wherefores behind it. And the world is the source of that info. All this info about the power players drips down into the shadows pretty quick. I think its incredibly usefull and makes for the most colorful, interesting gaming out there.

Just to get back on topic: I'm getting my copy tomorrow but I got to page through one in a store today. I really loved the maps. Even though there doesn't seem to be (judging from other posts here) a lot of info on lots of Eastern Europe and the remains of the Jyhad, even just having a map that included the boundaries of the contested areas and gives a good, graphic overview of Europe is usefull. In the past, I've generally taken real-world maps and said something like, "Well, in SR, the boundary is about here or so, I think" to my players. Other thoughts after I devour the book over the weekend.

[MYST1C]

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

OK, several valid points from different perspectives here. It is possible to centre a game upon the runners and only involve their immediate vicinity and make it dark and urban chaos/megacorp uber-power themed. In fact you don't even need to cover things beyond the vague Barrens descriptions and prowling gangs. Personally this is more a Cyberpunk setting and how I see R.Å. Talisorian's Night City. It could be any future city, anywhere in the world and even on any planet of that technological background. The city is the scene and nothing outside it is required. Ideal for in depth short campaigns.

However, Shadowrun is specifically set on this planet and therefore must be influenced by this planets societies and history. The whole concept of the Sixth World encompasses every old legend and nation's folklore into something that is relevant with magic's return. Society is global and that globe is getting smaller due to increasing technological advances.

Overall though, the point behind sourcebooks such as SoNA and SoE is to cover the background of those locations. The importance is to bring across the atmosphere of that locale: its surroundings, its culture, its day-to-day lifestyle. That is where it becomes relevant to shadowrunners. Different places have different rules and different laws, not just official ones, but the everyday things you take for granted. Those little differences are what matter, what make the game world more realistic to play in, and what Gamemasters need to bring their games to life. Metaplots and rules are important, but secondary to having an environment to actually have your characters play in.

Hopefully, that's what we have accomplished here in SoE - a book that brings over the atmosphere of the locations, the essential things anyone (runner or offical citizen) will see, hear, smell, touch, taste and experience in that place. After that its up to the GM to create scenarios to occupy the players. Maybe they'll even use some of our ideas too. :)

[MYST1C]

[Skeptical Clown]

See, here's the thing: The world DOESN'T keep going if the players aren't there. Giving the illusion that it does is one thing, but ultimately, Shadowrun isn't about the things Lofwyr is doing. It's about what the players are doing. Shadowrun is a game, first and foremost. I just hate seeing Shadowrun delve into the kind of anti-player territory that the bloated Forgotten Realms treads in.

Also, it's not true that early Shadowrun ignored day-to-day life. Forget Shadowbeat; the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life was printed ages before Sprawl Survival Guide, and did a better job. The original Seattle Sourcebook is still one of the best resources for the game, because it gives so much information about things the Shadowrunners might actually be involved with; bars, nightclubs, facilities, restaurants, and gangs. New Seattle in its own way provides a good deal of information too. And even later sourcebooks that lost some of that detail, like California Free State, still understands the essence of societal decay that's critical to shadowrunning. Even in Denver, it seemed basically understood that the flunkies in control of the government had no real authority or legitimacy. They were completely arbitrary, struggling to maintain an aura of importance in the face of impotence.

I think a lot of people forget: Shadowrun isn't our future. It's a worst-case scenario that diverged from our track of history FIFTEEN YEARS ago.

[Pistons]

When the game was created, it was both a worst-case scenario and our future. A possible one, that is. It resonated so much with gamers then because of that -- it was relevant, it just might happen. For those of us belonging to the generation that grew up with the threat of nuclear war, that's actually a slightly rosier picture and preferable to landscapes of mutation and scrabbling for cups of untainted water.

The new generation (gamers or not) sees things differently. That scenario is no longer quite so viable as even a worst-case scenario. In fact, there's a different sort of worst-case scenario out there. It still has some similarities with the cyberpunk sort of future, but it's no longer just cyber -- it's bioware, it's sentient robots, it's an out-of-control AI, it's governments and corporations that run roughshod over its customers and citizenry in the name of the all-mighty dollar and so much more. Compare the popular science fiction flicks then with now -- there's your yardstick to discover the current crop of future-fear.

Because Shadowrun is a dynamic world, sticking solely with the old themes makes no sense when it comes to putting out new books. Fifteen years and no advances in technology? No changes in even the local government or corporations? I don't know of any place like that. Even if your characters aren't supposed to care about those things, they happen regardless and can affect what goes on in the street.

For people to buy the new books, there needs to be something in there they can relate to on some level. There are some advances in tech NOW, in reality, that are just making their way into the SR books... tech that could have, in the SR timeline, been developed before but the documentation was lost in the Matrix Crash of '29. People can look at that and say, "Hey, I remember reading about this stuff. How can I use it in a game?"

There's also the fact that for Shadowrun to remain viable in the market, it's necessary to put out new books. It's the reality of the gaming market. If we put out nothing but the same things over and over again, the game would be dead in the water. Sure it would appeal to some core fans, but that's never enough to keep a game alive in the market.

I'm sorry that the current crop of books disappoints you, Skeptical Clown. I think it's become clear, however, that they're not aimed toward you and your style of game. I don't think this is a bad thing, as there's plenty of the older sourcebooks for you to play from and be perfectly happy with. This is not to say that we don't try to keep some of the nostalgia going with what we write now and appeal to gamers like you; just that apparently it's missed the mark for you. Other gamers, however, seem happy with it and would like to see more, and it's for them and their games that we continue to write and put these books out.

[JongWK]

Skep, many gamers want to run games in their countries, and a "Shadows of..." gives them enough background to run them. I, for one, don't regret that FanPro seems to be planning to cover the entire globe.

I also don't want a unidimensional game like Cyberpunk 2020, where all we know about South America is that the continent is ruled by a bunch of petty dictators. Hell, even the lone SouthAm run idea included in a CP2020 book was pathetic.

[Skeptical Clown]

It has nothing to do with covering the globe. I'm all for globe-trotting. It's the themes and the direction. There's really not much separating Shadowrun thematically from say, the D20 modern setting.

It is pretty disappointing. I own nearly every SR product, and it's pretty frustrating seeing the game go in some completely different direction. Like I said though, more money for D&D books I guess.

[shadd4d]

Would you mind expanding on that statement. Thematically, I don't see the connection. Never played or read d20 modern, so I really don't understand your statement.

Personally, I like the new books,and yes I do have quite a few of the old ones. The point is what BBB said:

[Adhoc]

If you don't like it, don't use it. Remember: it's your game.

:wavey:
Adhoc

[Skeptical Clown]

That's not an acceptable answer at all. As a consumer of Shadowrun goods, I'm perfectly within my rights to bitch about them if I think the quality is poor. And in fact, I sort of consider it a responsibility. I could just stop purchasing them, but until recently I hadn't realized how far Shadowrun had drifted, and I still felt like supporting the (and the few local stores that still carried them; the number has dwindled over the years.)

As for the d20 modern comment, it means what it sounds like. D20 Modern, when used with Urban Arcana is basically the "real world," but with magic and elves and dragons and stuff. Basically, dungeons and dragons in a more or less modern setting, with modern being flexible enough to cover the entire modern and near-future age. My point: Shadowrun doesn't really have any discernable theme to distinguish itself from any other quasi-modern fantasy. At least, not anymore.

[tjn]

Fears of the future Skep. It's one of the major themes of Cyberpunk, but however Cyberpunk is based in the 80's with 80's fears.

It's now 2004, with different fears and different issues pushed to the forefront. In order for Shadowrun to not stagnate into oblivion it needs to adapt these fears to the common age. Things like Nanotech and Globalization.

If this doesn't float your boat, that's fine, it doesn't have to.

But calling it poor for evolving and staying current is a bit out of line IMO.

[Pistons]

[Skeptical Clown]

Hey, I'm not deluded into think I'm going to convert anyone. I am curious though, if message boards are the primary measure of what fans want, and if they accurately represent the majority of people who play Shadowrun. The question is probably moot, however.

I don't think my arguments are "out of line" though, and I'm not sure how they could be construed to be. I'm not just arguing that I don't like the change of focus (which I don't.) I'm also arguing that it's an illogical in-game progression, affected by the external preferences of writers or players.

[Thanos007]